Like a Rock: I admire your compassion but I understand the frustration of Al,Dan etc... Working in the South Bronx NY where English is a second language has often made me feel the same way. When Italians,Germans,Swedes etc.. emigrated to this country they had to learn the language of their new country. Doing this ensured the future success of their (ethnic) group here. The Spanish speaking peoples are not being forced to learn our language because of misguided liberalism. This misguided liberalism has the long term effect of harming those it supposes to help. (In this case when second and third generation hispanic-americans can't speak English).
More bs, diversity from Cheerios
- Thread starter Al
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No hablo Espanol, I speak English, and am proud of it. When I go overseas and visit a country, I am expected to adapt to that culture, and speak their language. I am with you Al, I believe that if people want to move to the great USA, then they need to learn how to speak English.
FWIW, I listened to a radio show the other day on NPR. There was a linguist on the show that said by the year 2100, the thousands of languages that exist in the world today, will be down to about 25.
Jeffrey (from Germany),
First of all, I want to thank you for your "heartfelt" concern over our recent political election.
That said....yes, I voted for Bush. Do I agree with his immigration policies? No. Is he well intentioned? Yes. For whom? The businesses, located in southern border portions, that benefit from low wage agricultural workers. It's a business decision that the President, and U.S. companies, have decided is in their best interest. I still don't agree but many more issues were on the table in our recent election. My main concern is that we secure our borders before any (more?) terrorists get through.
First of all, I want to thank you for your "heartfelt" concern over our recent political election.
That said....yes, I voted for Bush. Do I agree with his immigration policies? No. Is he well intentioned? Yes. For whom? The businesses, located in southern border portions, that benefit from low wage agricultural workers. It's a business decision that the President, and U.S. companies, have decided is in their best interest. I still don't agree but many more issues were on the table in our recent election. My main concern is that we secure our borders before any (more?) terrorists get through.
Andrew,
I live in Germany (9 years and counting - with no intention to return), but I am an American citizen. I did have a heartfelt concern about the election, and I did vote by absentee ballot - whether it was counted or not, who knows?
You really hit the nail on the head. Whether it is television commercials in Spanish, the books from Cheerios, or an immigration policy that makes it easier for Mexican migrants to work in USA, it is all about business and profits. If there is money to be made, then companies, and not liberal minded politicians, will cater to the legal and illegal Spanish speaking community.
I live in Germany (9 years and counting - with no intention to return), but I am an American citizen. I did have a heartfelt concern about the election, and I did vote by absentee ballot - whether it was counted or not, who knows?
You really hit the nail on the head. Whether it is television commercials in Spanish, the books from Cheerios, or an immigration policy that makes it easier for Mexican migrants to work in USA, it is all about business and profits. If there is money to be made, then companies, and not liberal minded politicians, will cater to the legal and illegal Spanish speaking community.
PBM, might be aware of this, Bilingual education is provided in NYC to Latino children who can speak English better that the African American children.
This is done as a sacred cow approach to save/create jobs and not to educate. Who suffers?All the children in the public school system who now get less in necessary textbooks and remedial programs, class trips, etc., etc.
This is the product of a special interest mentality. I think it's interesting to note that Asians seem less likely to holler for such programs and seem to perform better academically? This is just anecdotal, however.
This is done as a sacred cow approach to save/create jobs and not to educate. Who suffers?All the children in the public school system who now get less in necessary textbooks and remedial programs, class trips, etc., etc.
This is the product of a special interest mentality. I think it's interesting to note that Asians seem less likely to holler for such programs and seem to perform better academically? This is just anecdotal, however.
Agree 100%. You come here, you learn how to speak english, period. If I were to move to Italy, I'd learn Italian. It's arrogant to come here and push your language over the national language. You have to learn English if you want to succeed today. Learn it and shut up.
I worked for a multinational corporation that had factories in Puerto Rico. While I was in the company facilites English was spoken with management. Because that was the "ticket" for them to better themselves within the company. For the factory workers and outside the factory, at the hotels, restaurants and shops I made every every attempt to communicate in Spanish, as poor as mine was
. When I went to our facilites in the Netherlands and Germany I made every effort to try to speak in the local language. It usually gave them a lot of laughs but at least I tried. If you're going to live in a country there is NO EXCUSE to not learn the language. That is not a racist statement!
Whimsey
Whimsey
There is NO LAW saying English is the language of the USA. You have the right to speak any language you want. This is about your fear of something different.
I pay to take Spanish classes...why ? It makes economic sense in the job market where I am to learn it. PLUS
there are some FINE Spanish speaking women around here.
Same thing with newer computer languages economically...Live with the Dinosaurs and get left behind.
Like the Conservatives like to Rant- get up off your rear , educate yourself at your cost or get left behind. I do it...but I voted for the other guy but you don't hear me complaining about having to learn to keep up with change.
I pay to take Spanish classes...why ? It makes economic sense in the job market where I am to learn it. PLUS
Same thing with newer computer languages economically...Live with the Dinosaurs and get left behind.
Like the Conservatives like to Rant- get up off your rear , educate yourself at your cost or get left behind. I do it...but I voted for the other guy but you don't hear me complaining about having to learn to keep up with change.
Maybe I missed it in all the posts, but does it say why the book is bilingual?
If the actual cereal box were bilingual, I could see the complaints, but this is just a book and I for one will take advantage of the offer. Since my kids are learning Spanish it will be a great help.
BTW, I am also in full support of making English the official language of the USA. I do not want tax dollars going to bilingual tax forms, etc, but this Cheerios offer is a private endevor as far as I know.
But then maybe I don't see it the same as some. I have never been to southern Calif. where I understant this is a really hot issue.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
If the actual cereal box were bilingual, I could see the complaints, but this is just a book and I for one will take advantage of the offer. Since my kids are learning Spanish it will be a great help.
BTW, I am also in full support of making English the official language of the USA. I do not want tax dollars going to bilingual tax forms, etc, but this Cheerios offer is a private endevor as far as I know.
But then maybe I don't see it the same as some. I have never been to southern Calif. where I understant this is a really hot issue.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Spanish women are FINE, thats for sure. I like to watch the spanish channel sometimes just for the eye candy.
swedishiron, my point is that while it's great to be multi-cultural and learn many languages, their needs to be some uniform standard to have everyone on the same page. Being everyone in the world speaks English for the most part, and 99% of the U.S. population does, the others should conform to the majority, not the other way around. I'm not going to learn Spanish because Juan Gonzolez of La Hoya California, who snuck in illegally in the first place, can't speak English. Give me a break. I get ripped for being a bit liberal on here but look at the double standard going on here. Respect the majority language spoken. If I want to learn another language, I will do so on my own. Not because a group of minorities won't learn English.
"Spanish women are FINE, thats for sure. I like to watch the spanish channel sometimes just for the eye candy. "
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You can make it educational by close captioning the Espanol. It works for me.
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You can make it educational by close captioning the Espanol. It works for me.
Gosh guys. I think you have totally misinterpreted the reason for having kiddie books in English and Spanish. It's not so the Spanish speaking kids can read the story in Spanish, it's so English speaking kids, little English speaking kids, might have a chance to learn a second language while their minds are still malleable enough for it to do some good.
Learning a second language before age 6 or 7 helps you learn all sorts of other things easier later in life.
I bought the box of Cheerios with the bilingual book to send to my little nieces since I'm pretty sure that growing up in rural Ohio they aren't going to get any formal education in a second language until high school.
Learning a second language before age 6 or 7 helps you learn all sorts of other things easier later in life.
I bought the box of Cheerios with the bilingual book to send to my little nieces since I'm pretty sure that growing up in rural Ohio they aren't going to get any formal education in a second language until high school.
I resent GROUCHO MARX comment about African American children...Who taught African American's English? Ignorant uneducated White People. Poorly speaking African American's speak English just as well as the Ignorant White People who taught them in the south.
That is WHEN they were allowed to attend school. African Americans who are still living today that pursued higher education in this country were often refused education by people afraid of change (really competition). My father could NOT attend any education institute in THIS country regardless of grades just because of his skin color. On top of that he PAID taxes to support Universities he could not attend because he is Black.
I speak better English than most of my White co-workers and run circles around them when comes to Transact-SQL. I ended up teaching a Transact-SQL to my peers.
I have a White co-worker that was so afraid of my capabilities (I can program and read code that our software is based on) when I was hired he would do things like hide passwords and change logins that I needed because he know I would resolve the issues faster than he could once I started working. My White manager will testify to that fact. This is the same White manager that picked me to represent my group because of my superior speaking skills. He understands that this is what some White people consider a “leveled playing field” – manipulate the system so you don’t have to work any harder to keep up with minorities that are more educated (by choice) than you.
Maybe if they took advanced and gifted classes I took in school they would be able to keep up? Maybe if they spent Friday nights teaching themselves to program instead of drinking BUD and going to Metallica concerts(I do like some Metallica - Smashing Pumpkins are the best though). They chose not to. They had NO One blocking them from getting a better education based on their SKIN COLOR like my parents did.
Funny...I remember working at a call center years ago and a man on the phone I spoke with assumed I was White and made RACIST comments about someone he assumed was BLACK while assuming I was WHITE. How Ignorant can someone be to make those assumptions? I live in the South and I have family in New York - The African Americans in New York I have met Speak way better English than the VAST MAJORITY of White Southerners I am surrounded by.
I see a bunch of "Men" afraid of change and too lazy to educate themselves, trying to blame there problems on minorities of which only so few have college educations but some how are managing to take "ALL" the jobs from the majority of White Americans. It is impossible if you do the math - too lazy to do that too?
The fact is you MAY have to compete equally against all members of this society and you are afraid. For generations you NEVER had to compete fairly and equally against all of America. You grouped segments of this society and refused equal education or entrance to the job market - that is FACT. You hung them and shot them when they tried to vote (do some research on Voting History if you don't believe it - your probably too lazy to research that too I suspect?
Be Afraid then because I intend to succeed and clean your clock. I'm not afraid to spend my Fridays and Saturdays teaching myself - Foreign Language or otherwise.
That is WHEN they were allowed to attend school. African Americans who are still living today that pursued higher education in this country were often refused education by people afraid of change (really competition). My father could NOT attend any education institute in THIS country regardless of grades just because of his skin color. On top of that he PAID taxes to support Universities he could not attend because he is Black.
I speak better English than most of my White co-workers and run circles around them when comes to Transact-SQL. I ended up teaching a Transact-SQL to my peers.
I have a White co-worker that was so afraid of my capabilities (I can program and read code that our software is based on) when I was hired he would do things like hide passwords and change logins that I needed because he know I would resolve the issues faster than he could once I started working. My White manager will testify to that fact. This is the same White manager that picked me to represent my group because of my superior speaking skills. He understands that this is what some White people consider a “leveled playing field” – manipulate the system so you don’t have to work any harder to keep up with minorities that are more educated (by choice) than you.
Maybe if they took advanced and gifted classes I took in school they would be able to keep up? Maybe if they spent Friday nights teaching themselves to program instead of drinking BUD and going to Metallica concerts(I do like some Metallica - Smashing Pumpkins are the best though). They chose not to. They had NO One blocking them from getting a better education based on their SKIN COLOR like my parents did.
Funny...I remember working at a call center years ago and a man on the phone I spoke with assumed I was White and made RACIST comments about someone he assumed was BLACK while assuming I was WHITE. How Ignorant can someone be to make those assumptions? I live in the South and I have family in New York - The African Americans in New York I have met Speak way better English than the VAST MAJORITY of White Southerners I am surrounded by.
I see a bunch of "Men" afraid of change and too lazy to educate themselves, trying to blame there problems on minorities of which only so few have college educations but some how are managing to take "ALL" the jobs from the majority of White Americans. It is impossible if you do the math - too lazy to do that too?
The fact is you MAY have to compete equally against all members of this society and you are afraid. For generations you NEVER had to compete fairly and equally against all of America. You grouped segments of this society and refused equal education or entrance to the job market - that is FACT. You hung them and shot them when they tried to vote (do some research on Voting History if you don't believe it - your probably too lazy to research that too I suspect?
Be Afraid then because I intend to succeed and clean your clock. I'm not afraid to spend my Fridays and Saturdays teaching myself - Foreign Language or otherwise.
By the way, I know many people in their 70s and 80s (and 90s in one case) who came from immigrant families who regret not knowing their parents' native tongue. They feel that something valuable was taken away from them by not being allowed to speak Swedish or Norwegian or whatever at home when they were kids. These people are all happy to be Americans and speak very good English. But they feel cheated out of their heritage by the intolerance of the other European immigrants who happened came to America before them.
Swedishiron: You seem to be a very angry person.
Not all white Americans are responsible for slavery,racism etc.. Both of my parents were born in Europe and emigrated here because of all the opportunities. My father fought in WW2 for the USA. I have no connection to slavery in America.
No sane person denies the wrongs done to blacks in Americas past. But you also have to remember the thousands and thousands of whites who died fighting to end slavery in the Civil War.
Not all white Americans are responsible for slavery,racism etc.. Both of my parents were born in Europe and emigrated here because of all the opportunities. My father fought in WW2 for the USA. I have no connection to slavery in America.
No sane person denies the wrongs done to blacks in Americas past. But you also have to remember the thousands and thousands of whites who died fighting to end slavery in the Civil War.
Ending Slavery is not why the Civil War took place. The war happened to affirm that states may not secede.
You know the whole "rope of sand thing." Lincoln's priority was maintaining the Union. The Emancipation Proclamation was something that came later.
If you think that Northern Whites were anxious to die in a war so that Southern Blacks could be made free, then read about the draft riots in NY City.
You know the whole "rope of sand thing." Lincoln's priority was maintaining the Union. The Emancipation Proclamation was something that came later.
If you think that Northern Whites were anxious to die in a war so that Southern Blacks could be made free, then read about the draft riots in NY City.
Jeffrey, I know that the Civil War was about more than slavery but nevertheless it was the most costly war (in terms of casuaties) that America has ever had. Also the "Draft Riots" were more about the wealthy being able to buy their way out than not wanting to fight.
JHZR2
Staff member
Swedish:
I have to say that I have the utmost respect for you. Unfortunately you are the exception to the rule, and a lot of the fault falls on the white population for this, historically. However, as much opf the fault falls on the black population too.
For kids in NYC, for example, its not because they learned english down south, its not because their teachers were necissarily ignorant, useless, etc. It is, in my opinion, that they have nothing to live for. They have no discipline, no role models, and no indication of what is good in life.
Look at the asians, they immigrate here and in the end do really well for themselves. Not because of any special treatment, but because their parents demand high grades in school, they demand excellence, and discipline in what they do. And this reaps rewards.
On the other hand, my GF is from St. Thomas originally. She tells me how the blacks and latinos down there choose to live in near slum conditions, but will then buy some fancy car, put shiny wheels on it, and park it in the street of the area that they live in. She tells me how families in the black community are often non-existant. Both on part of the women and men; a man will father children with many mothers, and women will get pregnant by many men. How a hige percentage f the kids drop out of school, the girls get pregnant and the boys leave. And they end up here in the US (St Thomas's population is dropping slowly). To me, such behavior is one of the choices that is typically made by the population as a whole. That is their 'values' and their way of life. Because people are so scared of offending others, nobody had dare tell then that their way of life is wrong or inferior. However, just by nature of the way that the world is, there are inferior choices and ways of life. These people choose an inferior way of life, dont care, and so never excel. And this situation is no different in the inner-city than it is on a little Carribean island. Unfortunately it is probably mopre real in the city than it is on St. Thomas.
There is something to be said about one population keeping the other down because of ignorance, being scared, etc., but at the same time, there is something to be said about the old 'getting yourself up by the bootstraps' saying, which is definitely necessary too. Nothing can be resolved without both sides trying, and unfortunately, that doesnt happen.
I dont have an answer, I dont pretend to, but I do know that there is plenty of opportunity for all, in some way or another. The untapped potential in this country alone is enormous, but a lot of that MUST be initiated by the person themself, no excuses, no complaining... where there is a will, there is a way.
JMH
I have to say that I have the utmost respect for you. Unfortunately you are the exception to the rule, and a lot of the fault falls on the white population for this, historically. However, as much opf the fault falls on the black population too.
For kids in NYC, for example, its not because they learned english down south, its not because their teachers were necissarily ignorant, useless, etc. It is, in my opinion, that they have nothing to live for. They have no discipline, no role models, and no indication of what is good in life.
Look at the asians, they immigrate here and in the end do really well for themselves. Not because of any special treatment, but because their parents demand high grades in school, they demand excellence, and discipline in what they do. And this reaps rewards.
On the other hand, my GF is from St. Thomas originally. She tells me how the blacks and latinos down there choose to live in near slum conditions, but will then buy some fancy car, put shiny wheels on it, and park it in the street of the area that they live in. She tells me how families in the black community are often non-existant. Both on part of the women and men; a man will father children with many mothers, and women will get pregnant by many men. How a hige percentage f the kids drop out of school, the girls get pregnant and the boys leave. And they end up here in the US (St Thomas's population is dropping slowly). To me, such behavior is one of the choices that is typically made by the population as a whole. That is their 'values' and their way of life. Because people are so scared of offending others, nobody had dare tell then that their way of life is wrong or inferior. However, just by nature of the way that the world is, there are inferior choices and ways of life. These people choose an inferior way of life, dont care, and so never excel. And this situation is no different in the inner-city than it is on a little Carribean island. Unfortunately it is probably mopre real in the city than it is on St. Thomas.
There is something to be said about one population keeping the other down because of ignorance, being scared, etc., but at the same time, there is something to be said about the old 'getting yourself up by the bootstraps' saying, which is definitely necessary too. Nothing can be resolved without both sides trying, and unfortunately, that doesnt happen.
I dont have an answer, I dont pretend to, but I do know that there is plenty of opportunity for all, in some way or another. The untapped potential in this country alone is enormous, but a lot of that MUST be initiated by the person themself, no excuses, no complaining... where there is a will, there is a way.
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
I agree with what every person who is on here who has talked about going to other countries and trying to communicate in their language.
That is an excellent point. It is not only common courtesy, but also common sense that when one goes from their own country to another, either permanently, semi-permanently, or temporarily, that they learn the customs, language, etc., of the other country.
So why is that not so here? It is not because the only ones wanting it are the narrow-minded dumbos in the red states. It isnt because of the population of the blue states who care more about a tree than about their country's language, and think that because they live in a cosmopolitan area that they are somehow enlightened and see the country and the world in a better way, and have superior intelligence. No, its because people on both sides, some of whom are smart, and some of who are dumb, some who play the party lines because they cant figure things out for themselves, and others who have thought every detail of every issue out thuroughly cannot get past their overwhelming ignorance, and see that in reality, there is a specific accepted world order, a specific methodology of assimilation for newcomers that is the same the world over, and which is unofficially occurring here too. They need to see that although this is the way the world works, that they are being walked upon by what is still currently a minority, who is beginning to dictate the rules themselves, because of disrespect and no care for the way things are.
What is necessary is for reds and blues, as well as people of all races and ethnicities, all of whom have pride in their country, and the belief that although the American system and way of life may be flawed, it is better than any other, to see that there is a necessity of maintaining the american culture and way of life. This way. at the bare minimum, we can hope for change and improvement as we move on. It is necessary for blacks, whites, latinos, asians, christians, muslims, jews, everyone out there to recognize this, to make this cause their own, and to act upon it. This isnt a white issue. Its at the bare minimum a white, black and asian issue. And, I think that in reality, most of them will agree. So that power must be harnessed.
Unfortunately the populous as a whole, red and blue, black and white, is so dumb that it takes a major event, or a major overturning of our way of life before they care. When will that happen? I cant say, but itll probably be trouble one way or another.
Im not 'scared'of something different, Im not worried about loosing my job to a latino. I do think it unfair though, that even though my father had to learn english the hard way in order to succeed, that my tax dollars go to making bilingual signs, that hard work goes to making bilingual schools, for what? Some benefit that Ill reap? No! If I want to reap benefit, Ill learn German and Japanese, not Spanish. Its a lack of fairness, that the 'silent majority' doesnt seem to care about. The silent majority needs to move upon this, not with hate for latinos, but with love for our country and culture, and with hope that as they enter this country by immigration or being born, that they can benefit our society, rather than creating a sub-culture that will slowly turn into and take over our beloved culture.
I love learning about other cultures. I had a good friend in grad school who was a pakistani, and I loved learning about cooking their types of food, their customs, etc. I love hispanic culture, I love Chinese and Japanese culture, and I love the German and Scottish cultures from which my ancestors came, and which hold fast in my family. But, most of all I love my culture, and there is nothing wrong with caring that it be maintained and improved upon, not diluted because of others who carelessly take advantage of their ability to come here.
JMH
[ November 21, 2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]
That is an excellent point. It is not only common courtesy, but also common sense that when one goes from their own country to another, either permanently, semi-permanently, or temporarily, that they learn the customs, language, etc., of the other country.
So why is that not so here? It is not because the only ones wanting it are the narrow-minded dumbos in the red states. It isnt because of the population of the blue states who care more about a tree than about their country's language, and think that because they live in a cosmopolitan area that they are somehow enlightened and see the country and the world in a better way, and have superior intelligence. No, its because people on both sides, some of whom are smart, and some of who are dumb, some who play the party lines because they cant figure things out for themselves, and others who have thought every detail of every issue out thuroughly cannot get past their overwhelming ignorance, and see that in reality, there is a specific accepted world order, a specific methodology of assimilation for newcomers that is the same the world over, and which is unofficially occurring here too. They need to see that although this is the way the world works, that they are being walked upon by what is still currently a minority, who is beginning to dictate the rules themselves, because of disrespect and no care for the way things are.
What is necessary is for reds and blues, as well as people of all races and ethnicities, all of whom have pride in their country, and the belief that although the American system and way of life may be flawed, it is better than any other, to see that there is a necessity of maintaining the american culture and way of life. This way. at the bare minimum, we can hope for change and improvement as we move on. It is necessary for blacks, whites, latinos, asians, christians, muslims, jews, everyone out there to recognize this, to make this cause their own, and to act upon it. This isnt a white issue. Its at the bare minimum a white, black and asian issue. And, I think that in reality, most of them will agree. So that power must be harnessed.
Unfortunately the populous as a whole, red and blue, black and white, is so dumb that it takes a major event, or a major overturning of our way of life before they care. When will that happen? I cant say, but itll probably be trouble one way or another.
Im not 'scared'of something different, Im not worried about loosing my job to a latino. I do think it unfair though, that even though my father had to learn english the hard way in order to succeed, that my tax dollars go to making bilingual signs, that hard work goes to making bilingual schools, for what? Some benefit that Ill reap? No! If I want to reap benefit, Ill learn German and Japanese, not Spanish. Its a lack of fairness, that the 'silent majority' doesnt seem to care about. The silent majority needs to move upon this, not with hate for latinos, but with love for our country and culture, and with hope that as they enter this country by immigration or being born, that they can benefit our society, rather than creating a sub-culture that will slowly turn into and take over our beloved culture.
I love learning about other cultures. I had a good friend in grad school who was a pakistani, and I loved learning about cooking their types of food, their customs, etc. I love hispanic culture, I love Chinese and Japanese culture, and I love the German and Scottish cultures from which my ancestors came, and which hold fast in my family. But, most of all I love my culture, and there is nothing wrong with caring that it be maintained and improved upon, not diluted because of others who carelessly take advantage of their ability to come here.
JMH
[ November 21, 2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]
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