Mopar to replace the current v-8 with a inline 6 twin turbo? say it aint so...

[javacontour]

Not sure about that last bit. I often think it was the sound of that Duratec V6 alone that got me hooked on cars.

I still remember my Father getting his first ST220 and taking me out in for the first time. It was a Saturday morning and we were heading down to the Gower in South Wales for the weekend. My parents had a caravan down by the sea for many years. Even better, this Saturday the sun was out, it was like 30°c and I remember hanging my arm out of the window playing with the breeze. My Father came off a roundabout (do you have them in the US?) onto a dual carrigeway and pinned the throttle in 2nd at about 4000rpm letting it sing to 7,250rpm, shifting into 3rd and holding her wide open to the redline again. To this day, I'm convinced if it was any normal 4 pot turbo in that Mondeo I wouldn't be into cars today. I remember the noise making the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end and being totally amazed that a 'normal' car would even make such a noise.

My Father had two ST220's over a span of 6 years and I promised myself I'd own one one day. I bought one in 2019 and kept it for about 18 months, my Wife used it as her daily driver for 12 months of that. Unfortunatley it was a bit of a dissapointment. The noise was as I remembered it but the lack of low down grunt that you get in modern turbocharged engines soured the experience a bit for me. Probably didn't help I'd had diesels for years that made a lot of torque much sooner than the Duratec V6 could ever make in N/A form.

Yes we have roundabouts, but not as many as I saw in Europe.


Yes, you had to get into the upper revs to make that 2.5L Duratec move. I had the US version in an SVT Contour. More closely related to the ST200 than the ST220, but close enough. It was dropped after 2000. The Fusion (also now dropped) shares some DNA with the original CDW-27 platform from the mid to late 1990s.

My Mazda3 (naturally aspirated) isn't as much fun, but it is more reliable than the Ford was.

 

[Leo99]

My Father came off a roundabout (do you have them in the US?) onto a dual carrigeway and pinned the throttle in 2nd at about 4000rpm letting it sing to 7,250rpm, shifting into 3rd and holding her wide open to the redline again.

We have roundabouts in the US. Not everyone is familiar with how to navigate them. It varies by location.

 

[skrypj]

The issue is not that it has a turbo. its that its a mopar with a turbo.

If they can't even get a port-injected pushrod iron block V8 to be ridiculously reliable than what chance do we have for a GTDI to work?

 

[Ws6]

You did get to hear that Duratec V6 and it had a sweet sound. It is hard for a 4 pot to match the sounds of 6 and 8 cylinders. It can happen, but is pretty rare.

Turbos tend to muffle the sound, but improve the performance.

I think I'd rather be fast than merely sound fast.

For an suv, my RDX sounds good. The srt4 sounds absolutely wicked with some mods. The S2K sounded good. Hell, even my rav4 prime has some bass on mid throttle acceleration. Roommates MB CLA35AMG sounded good. My ls7 sounded good, my hemi was ok. My lt1 was good. My ls1 sounded ok stock, but mod them and its meh. Inguess I just like cars?

 

[Nick1994]

Well, I've posted extensively on the subject

Here's a thread by @TeamZero where he shows the failure:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bad-hemi-lifters.349339/

In a nutshell:

GM and Chrysler (potentially to a lesser extent it would seem) are both having a materials issue with some of their roller lifters. where the hardening of either the pin or roller is inconsistent or insufficient and eventually (depending on how bad the flaw is will determine how long it takes to crop up in units affected), the needles breach one of those surfaces and then they stop moving. Once that happens, they start to wear a groove in that surface and eventually the needles pile-up, the roller stops rolling and starts sliding on the cam lobe, it goes downhill quickly from there, as neither surface is designed to be in sliding contact.

I believe with the GM failure, there is a tie-in with their AFM system, as part of the failure, this doesn't seem to be the case with the HEMI and MDS.

GM was less cheap than FCA/Stellantis and used a billet camshaft, so if caught early, in many cases the cam survives. FCA/Stellantis uses a SADI core where there is only surface hardening, so you are guaranteed to have to replace the camshaft as well.

I'm not sure about GM, but with FCA/Stellantis there have been at least three revisions of the lifters trying to solve the problem. As both myself and @TeamZero posted in the linked thread, actual rate of occurrence is extremely low, but of course internet amplification makes it sound endemic, even inevitable.

I had originally thought that insufficient valve spring pressure might have been a contributing factor, allowing for some float, hammering the lifters, but that doesn't appear to be the case based on TeamZero's observations in the field.

I wouldn't buy a truck from any of the big 3. Not a fan of the Hemi or the LS engines, and Ford seems to have timing chain issues still.

I think if I had to get a truck it would have to be a Tundra, but they're too pricy for me.

 

[OVERKILL]

The issue is not that it has a turbo. its that its a mopar with a turbo.

If they can't even get a port-injected pushrod iron block V8 to be ridiculously reliable than what chance do we have for a GTDI to work?

I mean, you can say the same thing about GM, they are having the same low frequency issue with lifter QC, or do we only get to crap on Chrysler?

Ford couldn't keep spark plugs in the heads of the PI 2V and then the 3V you couldn't get them out. Then they had phaser failures. Speaking of having issues with "simple" V8's.... Tearing the entire front dressing off a modular to change the timing chains and guides isn't a walk in the park, but it's a lot easier than doing the rear chains and guides on the SOHC V6 in the Explorer

Honda couldn't put a transmission behind a V6 for years without it failing and then completely mucked-up cylinder deactivation. Now, they can't seem to keep the 1.5L from turning the oil pan into a gasoline swimming pool.

Speaking of vendor QC, Toyota couldn't keep a frame under the Tundra or Tacoma for how long?

The selective amnesia many seem to have regarding brand or product-specific issues never ceases to amaze, while others are utterly roasted over similar or even less serious muck-ups, supplier issues...etc and ride on a tsunami of internet amplification.

 

[Rand]

I wouldn't buy a truck from any of the big 3. Not a fan of the Hemi or the LS engines, and Ford seems to have timing chain issues still.

I think if I had to get a truck it would have to be a Tundra, but they're too pricy for me.

But the ram is available with the same pentastar that is in your GC.

 

[OVERKILL]

I wouldn't buy a truck from any of the big 3. Not a fan of the Hemi or the LS engines, and Ford seems to have timing chain issues still.

I think if I had to get a truck it would have to be a Tundra, but they're too pricy for me.

My fleet experience with the 2011 and 2012's we have at work doesn't have me worrying about the HEMI's at all. You know you'll have to do manifold studs, but the ZF8 in the later DS and current DT trucks is bulletproof and everything else seems to hold up. We only had two F-150's, and no engine issues there, but A/C and cooling system problems as well as driveshaft hanger failure are things we had to deal with on one of them, which didn't happen to any of the RAM's. We are down to just one F-150 now, the other one, a Platinum, was traded on a RAM 1500, which got passed down to another staff member in 2020, and was replaced by another RAM 1500. All are HEMI's with the exception of a single 3.7L V6 and a "Classic" DS EcoDiesel that was purchased last year.

I'd say all the HEMI's except for the two 2020's have over 200,000 miles on them now. We've lost a single one to lifter failure, at around the 200,000 mile mark, it was replaced with one of the new 2020's. The truck was sold and re-powered, it was a Laramie, so a pretty nicely equipped truck and in good shape otherwise.

 

[dishdude]

My fleet experience with the 2011 and 2012's we have at work doesn't have me worrying about the HEMI's at all. You know you'll have to do manifold studs, but the ZF8 is bulletproof and everything else seems to hold up. We only had two F-150's, and no engine issues there, but A/C and cooling system problems as well as driveshaft hanger failure are things we had to deal with on one of them, which didn't happen to any of the RAM's. We are down to just one F-150 now, the other one, a Platinum, was traded on a RAM 1500, which got passed down to another staff member in 2020, and was replaced by another RAM 1500. All are HEMI's with the exception of a single 3.8L V6 and an "Classic" DS EcoDiesel that was purchased last year.

I'd say all the HEMI's except for the two 2020's have over 200,000 miles on them now. We've lost a single one to lifter failure, at around the 200,000 mile mark, it was replaced with one of the new 2020's. The truck was sold and re-powered, it was a Laramie, so a pretty nicely equipped truck and in good shape otherwise.

My fleet experience at work shows no issues with the LS motors, they're pretty bulletproof. They sell a ton of HEMI's and LS motors and a lot get run HARD. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either.

 

[Nick1994]

But the ram is available with the same pentastar that is in your GC.

I’m not a mega fan of the Pentastar. It’s ok. It powers the Grand Cherokee fine but in a truck I’d need more pep.

Or, a turbo inline 6

 

[Rand]

I’m not a mega fan of the Pentastar. It’s ok. It powers the Grand Cherokee fine but in a truck I’d need more pep.

Or, a turbo inline 6

Surprisingly I wasnt either the 3.2 in the 2017 cherokee was like driving a honda civic si engine in a jeep and the transmission tuning was abysmal.
the 2.0t is closer to a small V8 and the transmission tuning is much improved.
talk about backwards...

 

[dishdude]

Surprisingly I wasnt either the 3.2 in the 2017 cherokee was like driving a honda civic si engine in a jeep and the transmission tuning was abysmal.
the 2.0t is closer to a small V8 and the transmission tuning is much improved.
talk about backwards...

I had a rental Wrangler with the 2.0T and I was impressed. The 3.6 in the JGC is decently adequate, nothing to write home about - I always bought the 2wd version so that probably helped a bit. I did like the underhood packaging of the Pentastar.

 

[Rand]

I had a rental Wrangler with the 2.0T and I was impressed. The 3.6 in the JGC is decently adequate, nothing to write home about - I always bought the 2wd version so that probably helped a bit. I did like the underhood packaging of the Pentastar.

Thats also the 3.6

The 3.2 in the heaviest cherokee with 239ft/lb peak torque 271hp@6500rpm
vs the 2.0 that runs out of breath early but more torque. 270hp@5250rpm 295torque/3000rpm

The major driveability issue I had was on cruise control hitting a little hill such as the ones between cleveland and buffalo on rt 90.
would cause it to drop 4 gears from 8th to 4th.
you could mitigate this by using the ERS to lock out 7th and 8th..(electronic range limiter) and if it was already in 6th gear ahead of the hill it might not downshift.. esp if you gave it some gas.

The 2.0 drops to 7th or stays in 8th on cruise control with no intervention. of course the 19 has Autostick not ERS.. both have their advantages. I liked ERS for towing.
the autostick works good but requires more input from driver.

 

[tedsweet]

next generation will be totally electric

 

[CR94]

Hey, the AMC 242 was the best inline six engine ever.....

232

 

[skrypj]

I mean, you can say the same thing about GM, they are having the same low frequency issue with lifter QC, or do we only get to crap on Chrysler?

Ford couldn't keep spark plugs in the heads of the PI 2V and then the 3V you couldn't get them out. Then they had phaser failures. Speaking of having issues with "simple" V8's.... Tearing the entire front dressing off a modular to change the timing chains and guides isn't a walk in the park, but it's a lot easier than doing the rear chains and guides on the SOHC V6 in the Explorer

Honda couldn't put a transmission behind a V6 for years without it failing and then completely mucked-up cylinder deactivation. Now, they can't seem to keep the 1.5L from turning the oil pan into a gasoline swimming pool.

Speaking of vendor QC, Toyota couldn't keep a frame under the Tundra or Tacoma for how long?

The selective amnesia many seem to have regarding brand or product-specific issues never ceases to amaze, while others are utterly roasted over similar or even less serious muck-ups, supplier issues...etc and ride on a tsunami of internet amplification.

Is my point wrong? The hemi has been around since the early 2000's and yet here we are.

This isn't a thread about GM or Ford is it? I never claimed they were perfect but at least their current engines push the envelop and have an excuse for having issues.

 

[OVERKILL]

Is my point wrong? The hemi has been around since the early 2000's and yet here we are.

I'm not sure what your point is TBH. Slagging a brand for a low ROC vendor QC issue brings what value to this discussion? The LS-family has been around longer than the HEMI, yet has the same problem. The Modular was introduced in 1990, yet all the issues I mentioned popped up LONG after that point, with the 3V issues being more than a decade in.

This isn't a thread about GM or Ford is it? I never claimed they were perfect but at least their current engines push the envelop and have an excuse for having issues.

This is a thread about the engine that will likely replace the HEMI in the future, not about a low occurrence supplier QC issue being blown out of proportion by parties whose goal appears to be to one of exclusively stirring the pot, not discussing the subject at hand.

The LSx family pushes the envelope in what way? As I noted, it's older than the HEMI, GM slapping DI on it wasn't in any way groundbreaking, and they have the same lifter QC problem they are fighting with. That statement is nonsense, pure and simple.

The Coyote is a Modular derivative, again, tracing its roots back to 1990. Yes, Ford has added VCT to it, which was problematic on the 3V SOHC variant, more recently DI, and now hybrid injection, but the whole platform is derivative and they have had their fair share of issues with the Modular, despite it being, generally, an extremely long-lived family when not in 3V form.

As I said, selective amnesia is one hell of a thing, as is the emergence of strange and ever shifting goalposts when called out for posting something that was clearly intentioned to be inflammatory and added nothing of substance to the discussion.

ALL manufacturers will have problems with specific products and often these issues can be supplier related and don't crop up until years later. Internet amplification will make these problems appear much bigger than they are. I had no problem owning a 2V Modular, despite it having a propensity to launch plugs, and it did, I lost #8. I didn't have any timing chain guide problems however, unlike a friend of mine who lost both guides in the 4.6L in his F-150 at half the mileage. The Modular is still a fantastic engine, despite those potential issues. The same goes for the HEMI, the odds of somebody having a lifter fail is extremely low, and when it does happen, it is usually at very high mileage.

This is a technical forum and a place to partake in civil, level-headed discourse about technical subjects. It is not a place where we make punching bags out of marques we don't like in an attempt to irk a reaction out of others.

 

[The Critic]

I wouldn't buy a truck from any of the big 3. Not a fan of the Hemi or the LS engines, and Ford seems to have timing chain issues still.

I think if I had to get a truck it would have to be a Tundra, but they're too pricy for me.

At full MSRP, I think any of the 1/2 tons are a fairly poor value, not just the Tundra. I just don't see them being worth $45-$60K for the limited utility they deliver. If I was going to spend that kind of money, I would probably go 3/4.

My neighbor just bought a fairly stripped 2022 Tundra 2wd crewmax. MSRP was upper $40's, he paid sticker. No power seat, no power mirrors, no leather-wrapped steering wheel. Rear seat floor had a hump. Cabin felt tight and the doors sound about the same as my Prius when you close them. The powertrain felt about the same as a 2.7 ecoboost, nothing special. And here's the best part: payload was only 1400 lbs.

 

[skrypj]

I'm not sure what your point is TBH. Slagging a brand for a low ROC vendor QC issue brings what value to this discussion? The LS-family has been around longer than the HEMI, yet has the same problem. The Modular was introduced in 1990, yet all the issues I mentioned popped up LONG after that point, with the 3V issues being more than a decade in.

This is a thread about the engine that will likely replace the HEMI in the future, not about a low occurrence supplier QC issue being blown out of proportion by parties whose goal appears to be to one of exclusively stirring the pot, not discussing the subject at hand.

The LSx family pushes the envelope in what way? As I noted, it's older than the HEMI, GM slapping DI on it wasn't in any way groundbreaking, and they have the same lifter QC problem they are fighting with. That statement is nonsense, pure and simple.

The Coyote is a Modular derivative, again, tracing its roots back to 1990. Yes, Ford has added VCT to it, which was problematic on the 3V SOHC variant, more recently DI, and now hybrid injection, but the whole platform is derivative and they have had their fair share of issues with the Modular, despite it being, generally, an extremely long-lived family when not in 3V form.

As I said, selective amnesia is one hell of a thing, as is the emergence of strange and ever shifting goalposts when called out for posting something that was clearly intentioned to be inflammatory and added nothing of substance to the discussion.

ALL manufacturers will have problems with specific products and often these issues can be supplier related and don't crop up until years later. Internet amplification will make these problems appear much bigger than they are. I had no problem owning a 2V Modular, despite it having a propensity to launch plugs, and it did, I lost #8. I didn't have any timing chain guide problems however, unlike a friend of mine who lost both guides in the 4.6L in his F-150 at half the mileage. The Modular is still a fantastic engine, despite those potential issues. The same goes for the HEMI, the odds of somebody having a lifter fail is extremely low, and when it does happen, it is usually at very high mileage.

This is a technical forum and a place to partake in civil, level-headed discourse about technical subjects. It is not a place where we make punching bags out of marques we don't like in an attempt to irk a reaction out of others.

You seem very invested in this subject. My original post was a playful jab but you took it extremely seriously.

Get over it.

 

[OVERKILL]

You seem very invested in this subject. My original post was a playful jab but you took it extremely seriously.

Get over it.

I'm recovering from open heart surgery (double valve replacement) and trying to avoid getting my blood pressure up, so I will refrain from addressing your "get over it" snark.

I saw nothing "playful" about your jab. I also find it interesting that you didn't indicate that your intent was humour in your initial response to me (which would have changed the course of this exchange), rather, you doubled-down, trying to justify the statement. It seems more like you weren't anticipating the feedback/pushback you received and are now trying to pass it off as a joke that bombed rather than the obvious troll of the thread that it was.

I'm not "invested" in the subject. The OP created a thread about what changes may be coming down the pipe at Stellantis and concern about the demise of the HEMI. I participated in this discussion, including pointing out the two previous threads that were created about it already. No part of that benefits from bashing the brand and saying they can't even get a pushrod engine right, which is an obvious troll and adds nothing of value to the discussion.

It's akin to coming up to a random group of guys talking about precision rifles and a potential calibre change and just interjecting "yeah, maybe if you could shoot straight" and then strolling off and expecting everyone to find you hilarious. That'd be just fine if everyone knew you, but in the presence of strangers you just come off as a prick, follow?

I'm not sure what motivated you to make your initial post in this thread, but I hope our exchange here prompts a rethink of how you engage with people you don't know in the future.