MOLY how much WEAR does it prevent?

[Robbie Alexander]

If an engine oil were tweaked with a very high dose of Moly in correct proportion to other additives, how much reduction in wear do you believe will result?

IYO, what level of Moly would be necessary to 1. Maintain Status Quo, and 2. Provide superior protection.

 

[buster]

I think what we've seen so far on here is that Moly is a good FM and extra precautionary measure for protection. Oils that don't have any like Amsoil show just as good wear with oils that have it. Now under extreme racing situations, you might want Moly in the oil. RL obviously thinks the more the better and so does NEO. Oils like M1 and Schaeffer's use a little. Tough to answer this question.

 

[N2OIL]

Buster NEO uses lead for an EP additive

 

[MolaKule]

Excellent question, Robbie,

I think I answered in an earlier post, but it bears repeating.

Moly Dithiocarbamate is best known for it's friction reduction and antioxidant capabilities.

However, it does reduce wear when the load is high, whereas ZDDP alone reduces wear at low loads. When the load is from 550 Newtons to 1200 Newtons, MOTDC shows it's real worth. At 750 Newtons force, the 4-ball wear scar is reduced from 2.0 mm for a non-moly base oil to about 0.5 mm for an oil with moly. So from 0 to about 500 Newtons force, MoDTC acts as a friction reducer, then kicks into high gear as an EP/Anti-Wear additive from 550 Newtons on up. With ZDDP added, the wear reduction at high loads is even better.

For friction reduction, > 50 ppm is needed, for wear reduction, > 400 ppm is needed, depending on the oils other additives.

 

[buster]

MK, how does Amsoil score so well on the four ball wear without any Moly?

 

[Ed Island]

Molakule,
Would you go over what lube products the four ball test is valid for? (FWIW, I thought I read/heard it wasn't valid for motor oils).
Thanks.

 

[Leo]

One of my friends who runs the factory honda oil in his supercharged S2000 spun a bearing because his oil temps were just too high. Try 134C on the track.

Its in my opinion that if he was running Redline, Torco or any other oil with a big dose of moly, he may have been saved a rebuild.

 

[TooSlick]

The small amounts of moly used in many of todays engine oils are there primarily to help them pass the Sequence VIB, Fuel Efficiency test. This test is required to qualify for the SL and GF-3 classifications for gas engine oils. Amsoil uses some borate ester to achieve the same goal with their gas engine oils. Since Amsoil is thick enough to pass the ACEA "A3/B4" specs, it is somewhat more difficult for their oils to pass the Sequence VIB test. One reason why most xw-30 oils are formulated in the 9.5-10.5 Cst range IS to help them pass this test ....

Only Redline, Royal Purple, Schaeffers and perhaps a few other companies are using enough moly to qualify as a primary antiwear additive, as well as a friction modifier. You really need a couple of hundred ppm to accomplish that. Some other top racing synthetics like Synergyn/Torco use a healthy amount of both moly and boron, as well as lots of ZDDP.

Performance under boundary lube conditions - ie the Four Ball Test - is a matter of the basestock blend, as well as the additive chemistry and VI modifier. It is also a matter of how much synergism there is between all these components. Having thirty years of experience specializing in synthetic lubes also helps a bit

Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
-*-*-*
Only Redline, Royal Purple, Schaeffers and perhaps a few other companies are using enough moly to qualify as a primary antiwear additive, as well as a friction modifier. You really need a couple of hundred ppm to accomplish that. -*-*-*-*

---

agreed, there are a few others too,
and you are right about a minimum of a couple humdred...as I have said before.... BUT WHAT levels would be IYO; Necessary and ALSO to provide SUPERIOR portection? Care to take a stab?
Anyone?

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
-*-*-* When the load is from 550 Newtons to 1200 Newtons, MOTDC shows it's real worth. -*-*-*-*
For friction reduction, > 50 ppm is needed, for wear reduction, > 400 ppm is needed, depending on the oils other additives.

---

What's a newton... compared to say Kg? is there a compared value?

Under NORMAL operation of a NORMAL car/truck of small or large size, what is the load>????
Starting/Idle
normal accel and Lead foot ACCELeration

 

[ant]

Kg is a measure of mass, while Newton is a force in SI. F=mg - F(Newton)=m(kg) X g(9.81 m/sec/sec)
g is the gravitational constant. 9.81 m/sec/sec is value normally used, but in reality varies.

 

[MolaKule]

Newton is the SI unit of force:
1 Newton is = 0.2248 pounds of force, or what we call lb. or lb.(force). To convert from lbs.to Newtons, 1 lb.(force) = 4.448 Newtons.

The force on a crankshaft bearing during the expansion stroke varies from 750 lbs. to 1200 pounds.

In answer to your other question:

quote:

---

For friction reduction, > 50 ppm is needed, for wear reduction, > 400 ppm is needed, depending on the oils other additives.

---

The four-ball wear test is valid for ALL lubricant testing.

[ December 21, 2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[DJStillman]

It looks like Moly is a good thing. So, this being known, how can we get at least 400ppm of moly in our oils? Which additives would work? Which oil should we be starting with?

 

[MolaKule]

For friction reduction, > 50 ppm is needed, for wear reduction, > 400 ppm is needed, depending on the oil's other additives.

 

[DJStillman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJStillman:
Which oil should we be starting with?

---

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJStillman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJStillman:
Which oil should we be starting with?

---

---

Unless youre a chemist or lube engineer or just wanna do it no matter what... You should go with the pre made mixes...
I will say this, IMO, around 200 is MINIMUM, for full protection in NORMAL applications with no ADVERSE things going on, 300-400 is SAFEER, and gives an added level of a BUMBER for things to GO WRONG. IMO even as little as 50-80 provide some benefit albeit not a lot... you have to get into the 100's (high to low 200's) before IMO a constant benefit is seen... BUT you have several forms of Moly and many MFG of it and IMO, not all MOLY is the same or reacts the same with other chemicals in the oil OR with the OIL ITSELF.
When you look at this IMO, also look at an oil with high Calcium levels, and if balanced properly will be an eye opener.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

Originally posted by MolaKule:
[QB] ----------
The force on a crankshaft bearing during the expansion stroke varies from 750 lbs. to 1200 pounds.-*-*-*-*-*-
what's the Load in KG ?
not 300 would it...
What is the AVERAGE WEAR RATIO (mean scar/hertz)for an AVERAGE OTC oil upon Idle, crank, lead-foot conditions?

 

[speedybenz]

So are you saying that oils with a high calcium value provides wear protection similar or better than moly? I run an additive which is a calcium based product that has proven to decrease friction and add Hp.

Jeff

 

[MolaKule]

Go to these links for info on Anti-Wear Additives.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000027#000006

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032#000008

Robbie,

The load IS the Force. Loads are simply another name for Forces in mechanical systems.

Since F = ma (mass X acceleration), once has to know the mass of the piston/connrod and it's acceleration during the expansion stroke or any other stroke. In the English system, the mass is measured in slugs, and the acceleration is measured in feet/second squared. Force is measured by force sensors which are either resistive or piezo devices attached to the mechanical part.

An excellent undergraduate textbook for review of mechanical principles is by Cutnell and Johnson, "Physics." ISBN is 0-471-59773-2. Chapters 2-8 are excellent since they have excellent pictorals and worked problems that explain the concepts. This is the book I suggest to my physics students for review.

 

[JohnBrowning]

What we need is a ready made aditive suplement sold in the gallon size like Lube Control that will allow use to vary the AW/FM additives of our oil. It would nice if we had a supplemnt/concentrate that had the right ratio of Moly/Boron/Calcium,Antimony,ZDDP and maybe some type of Tungstein ester?? I heard that a long time ago tungsten showed some promiss and it migh be the next ZDDP!!

If it was concentrated enough you caould simply start with a low treat rate and vary the treat rate until you achived your goal. It might also allow us to buy cheaper oil and make it a better oil through suplementtation!