Modern Germany and WW2

[Rick in PA]

Originally Posted By: Win
...
In contrast, letters from former German POW's to the farmers whose farms they worked while POW's in Arkansas:

http://libinfo.uark.edu/SpecialCollections/POW/

That are actually rather sad, in that life as a prisoner on a farm in Arkansas was better to these men than what was left of Germany after the war.


Those are quite interesting letters. If I were in those German's shoes, I would not want any reminder of what caused my country to be ravaged so fiercely.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


Had the Japanese not bombed Pearl Harbour, do you think the US would have gotten involved?



YES! The United States Navy, on orders from FDR, was involved in a significant low intensity conflict in the Kriegsmarine in the North Atlantic resulting in the death of hundreds of U.S. sailors. They wanted more than anything a pretext to go to war with Germany knowing the stakes. The Americans were also providing significant Lend-lease aid to Britain at that point.

Secondly, do not speak of Pearl Harbor as some isolated event, in fact the U.S. goaded the Japanese into war via sanctions as the result of abominable Japanese actions in China. War was inevitable, the only question was how it was to start...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: cjcride
US Air Force bombed the nazi's by daylight which was far more dangerous yet far more precise than the British bombing by night.


I think studies showed that notion to be largely bogus, and that the RAF night raids were as accurate if not more so...

 

[mpvue]

if anything, this discussion shows that every culture has at one time or another, oppressed another.

no one is innocent.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
...aid the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


That's complete [censored] revisionist [censored]! Where are you getting your numbers from, "OVERKILL?" Really?

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


That's not true.

German Prisoners of war captured in Africa were sent to Texas (Geneva Convention. They have to be moved to a similar climate)
Only a couple escaped. One was found marching down the side of the road singing traditional German march songs. Another, an officer, escaped mainly to point out the deficiencies in security at the camp and scolded his captors for their inefficiency.
A large number of them petitioned to stay here after the war.


From what he told me (and he has a lot of information on it, in both the form of photos and documentation) there were camps that were not labelled as POW camps, but some other camps, like "work camps" or the like. Their classification allowed them to not fall under the Geneva convention and so food rations and other things were assigned whimsically. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it as it was rather appalling. I was quite skeptical as well until he started showing me this huge folder of info on it that he had collected.


His scale is complete [censored]! There were a number of German Wehrmacht servicemen who died in Allied custody after the war, but it had to do with a food shortage (famine even) and the spread of disease amongst the soldiers as the Western Allies never anticipated holding the number of POWs they did because they didn't plan for the German Heer (army) fleeing the Soviets for American custody...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


That's not true.

German Prisoners of war captured in Africa were sent to Texas (Geneva Convention. They have to be moved to a similar climate)
Only a couple escaped. One was found marching down the side of the road singing traditional German march songs. Another, an officer, escaped mainly to point out the deficiencies in security at the camp and scolded his captors for their inefficiency.
A large number of them petitioned to stay here after the war.


Found some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager

Quote:
The Rheinwiesenlager (English: Rhine meadow camps), were a group of 19 camps built in the allied-occupied part of Germany by the U.S. Army to hold captured German soldiers at the close of the Second World War. Officially named Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTE), they held between one and almost two million surrendered Wehrmacht personnel from April until September 1945. Prisoners held in the camps were designated Disarmed Enemy Forces not POWs. The decision had been taken in March 1943 by SHAEF commander in chief Dwight D. Eisenhower because of the logistical problems adhering to the Geneva Convention of 1929. By not classing the hundreds of thousand of captured troops as POWs, the problems associated with accommodating so many prisoners of war according to international treaties governing their treatment was negated.
Sources for German deaths in these camps range from between 3,000 to 10,000. Many died from starvation, dehydration and exposure to the weather elements because no structures were built inside the prison compounds.


I've read of much higher death rates than what is listed above, based on how many people actually left the camps in the end.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces

Quote:
Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention.


So where were the "millions" Overkill? Your posts seem rather irresponsible and bordering on trolling here!

 

[hattaresguy]

I don't know if I would say that millions of our German POW's died right after the war; the ones that did mostly from starvation and exposure since we were overwhelmed by the massive numbers surrendering.

Part of the problem was that most of them didn't want to surrender to the Russians, so they worked hard to get to the Western Allied lines.

I wouldn't say millions died, but probably a few hundred thousand at least.

They made out better than the Russian prisoners. Most Russian prisoners didn't see Germany again for 5-10 years, I think some of the last repatriations happened in the late 1950's. The vast majority were worked to death, and I would say the numbers are in the millions here.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: andrewg
..... I do however have some confusion as to your last paragraph. You say this..."both of these nations were major league scumbags and richly deserved everything they got, and probably then some." Now, are you referring to the entire nation? Or are you speaking about it's leaders? .....


I don't see any way the civilian populace could not have known what was going on.

Read the history and form your own opinion. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, for better or worse.


When Buchenwald and Dachau were liberated by the US Army. The local civillians all insisted, "We did not know."

It's an awful lot to not know.
I think I would have had soldiers from the 92nd Infantry Division "Buffalo Soldiers" (African American) and 442nd (Japanese American) force the locals to view the concentration camps.

Unless you are one of those conspiracy guys....then those photos of townspeople forced to view the concentration camps are "faked".


[censored] they knew, read any officer biographies and any of the guys that are not afraid to write the truth will talk about the camps.

One officer, I beleive his name was Knappe said it was a bit of gallows humor to joke about being sent to the camps. Similar to in Russia how you could get shipped off to the Gulags if you [censored] off the wrong person.

The vast majority of them had a pretty good idea of what the camps were, but a lot were in denial. I think another pretty large percentage knew the camps existed but thought they were really just detainment and work camps.

The whole innocent, a political officer myth is a bunch of [censored] that was created right at the end of the war, and a lot of German officers bought into it wholesale for various reasons.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
if anything, this discussion shows that every culture has at one time or another, oppressed another.

no one is innocent.


Nope, once you get past the comic book version of war that's what you realize.

The only difference these days is that we have a lot more media than in WW2, so everything going on is reported instantly. Back than you just didn't, and what little they had wouldn't report unpleasant things. People are shocked when for example we shoot some civilians, but the reality of war is that it happens all the time. Our civilian population due to Hollywood and lack of experience just has unrealistic expectations.

For example every combatant in WW2 shot prisoners and burned towns, some were more enthusiastic about it like the Russians and Germans, but they all did it for various military necessitates.

SOP for our guys when we ran into resistance in a town was to pull back and let the arty have at it, than go back in. Germans too. Think civilians didn't get in the way when you start dropping that much firepower in a population center? Its no different today, than when they drop a 2k ponder in a city in Iraq.

For example in Band of Brothers its very much glossed over. But POW's on all sides routinely shot prisoners because of there missions. When your behind enemy lines you cannot take them, so you have to get rid of them one way or another. You can't leave them, what if they get back to their unit? "hey guys there is a dozen light armed yankee's on the other side of that road, lets roll over their with a light armor detachment and cut them to pieces."



But don't beleive me, beleive the descendents of the French civilian that was shot up by Spiers because he protested Spiers killing an un armed German artillery unit.

 

[skyship]

They sound like brain washed East Germans. I live in Germany and have never heard any German say the Russians were better than the Americans or that the US POW camps were bad.
A lot of German POW died in Russian camps and the statistics for those captured at Stalingrad do show what happened after that battle.
The German POW in US camps were released after the end of WW2, BUT most of the Germans in Russian camps were not released for some years and were used for forced labor projects.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.

 

[skyship]

The Brits in the far East used to shoot a captured Japanese soldier in the back of the foot to cut the achillies tendon, that way he survived but was unable to walk normally and slowed down any Japanese unit that found them as a result.

 

[tribocessive]

the bataan death march technique also tends to render one unable to walk normally.

 

[tribocessive]

nazism, national socialism, was a left wing movement; d-day, insignificant d-day, was only the largest military operation in history, and it involved multi-national forces; churchill was a great man; japanese atrocities? see #2752117; if alinsky can be quoted, then i will go ahead and quote sir charles barkley ",I don't need no history!" there is one artifact that predates WWII , that remains standing, and that matters to me, and that is the statue of liberty.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
I am an ardent reader of history. I enjoy learning about the past and how we've arrived at what is today, our modern culture.
One of my big areas of interest has always been World War Two. Specifically I've always been fascinated about the rise to power of Germany after WW1 and how the Third Reich came about. I realize that we all know the general history of that period....including the leader, who many consider one of the most evil men of the twentieth century. My question is about Germany since the war and why it has so dramatically tried to erase the history of that time. I am fascinated by buildings and places still surviving from that time period and greatly desire someday to visit them. My concern is that any existing building or significant place of importance from the Reich period is in great danger of being destroyed (if it hasn't already been since the end of the war). Why does Germany see destroying historic sites and structures as so important? Are they ashamed or fearful? From what I understand even symbols of that era and a particular book are illegal. It seems odd to me that to try to erase or eradicate all traces of history is really an intelligent thing to do. I often visit this site http://www.thirdreichruins.com/ to look at fascinating places from that time period. They have updates regularly about various places of interest....but sadly, many times they report that the buildings or remains of these buildings have been bulldozed over. It's just very odd and almost sad that history (good or bad) is discarded in this way. Even the graves of certain well known historical figures have been hidden or removed. Strange.
I don't want this thread to become some statement about politics....it is not. It is in regard to history. Ideally I would like some folks from Germany or that may have real answers as to why this policy of erasing history is still going on.


Amazing topic. How did I miss this?

I would say apart from their own shame, guilt, and the desire to have nobody follow in the footsteps of the nazis, it could be the very fact that they lost the war and as part of that the winners could have been pushing, albeit covertly, the German govt to eradicate such monuments that would attract or show the future generations of how ambitious their German ancestors were and how close they got to ruling the world.
How can the winners of the war allow that? right?

Another way of looking at it is that this was a Nazi crusade. They lost that crusade. The winners don't want any mushrooms popping up in the future.

 

[tribocessive]

take a look at what the ancient romans did to carthage, following conquest.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


Had the Japanese not bombed Pearl Harbour, do you think the US would have gotten involved?



YES! The United States Navy, on orders from FDR, was involved in a significant low intensity conflict in the Kriegsmarine in the North Atlantic resulting in the death of hundreds of U.S. sailors. They wanted more than anything a pretext to go to war with Germany knowing the stakes. The Americans were also providing significant Lend-lease aid to Britain at that point.

Secondly, do not speak of Pearl Harbor as some isolated event, in fact the U.S. goaded the Japanese into war via sanctions as the result of abominable Japanese actions in China. War was inevitable, the only question was how it was to start...


Why is it not OK to isolate Pearl Harbour as the event that forced the US into the war? I'm quite sure it was! The retaliation for Pearl Harbour (and I'm not denying that they goaded the Japanese into it through massive sanctions.... they did) was the beginning of the US's involvement (in a significant manner) in WW2.

Prior to Pearl Harbour, their role was very much as you described it: Providing equipment with some low intensity conflict tossed in the mix.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
There's a mass grave that is now a soccer field. They were mowed down and bulldozed over.



But that is nothing new. You dont hold a cemetary plot forever like you do in the US (or I assume Canada). The oldest ones I saw in a cemetery were the WWI vets, which were kept and maintained. The rest are leased for 25-30 years, and that's it. You can pay to keep it up after that, but otherwise the gravestones are crushed to rubble and the plot is used for someone else.

There is nothing sacred about a burial plot in Germany at least, based upon my experience. Some do indeed make a hobby of going and caring for the plots, which is a very nice thing. But they seem to mostly be returned and reused by someone else after the time is up. It was interesting to see at the cemeteries that we visited, the worker peoples' areas. There were hundreds of gravestones from the old graves, just laying in piles, half-smashed.

Id hate to dig those holes and see what I find!


Which is why Cremating makes more sense. No land for the dead.
No disrespect intended, but it is best to forget the past, and look to the future. You cannot drive forwards whilst looking backwards in the rearview mirror.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: mpvue
if anything, this discussion shows that every culture has at one time or another, oppressed another.

no one is innocent.


Nope, once you get past the comic book version of war that's what you realize.

The only difference these days is that we have a lot more media than in WW2, so everything going on is reported instantly. Back than you just didn't, and what little they had wouldn't report unpleasant things. People are shocked when for example we shoot some civilians, but the reality of war is that it happens all the time. Our civilian population due to Hollywood and lack of experience just has unrealistic expectations.

For example every combatant in WW2 shot prisoners and burned towns, some were more enthusiastic about it like the Russians and Germans, but they all did it for various military necessitates.

SOP for our guys when we ran into resistance in a town was to pull back and let the arty have at it, than go back in. Germans too. Think civilians didn't get in the way when you start dropping that much firepower in a population center? Its no different today, than when they drop a 2k ponder in a city in Iraq.

For example in Band of Brothers its very much glossed over. But POW's on all sides routinely shot prisoners because of there missions. When your behind enemy lines you cannot take them, so you have to get rid of them one way or another. You can't leave them, what if they get back to their unit? "hey guys there is a dozen light armed yankee's on the other side of that road, lets roll over their with a light armor detachment and cut them to pieces."



But don't beleive me, beleive the descendents of the French civilian that was shot up by Spiers because he protested Spiers killing an un armed German artillery unit.


True that. I always find it humorous that movies depict 5 people going back behind enemy lines, 4 being shot down in the process, so that they can save the 1 POW, all in the name of no man left behind.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: tribocessive
nazism, national socialism, was a left wing movement;


No no no no no no no no. This is the exact opposite of correct. Where do you hear these things?! For Pete's sake, the Nazi's second-most hunted enemy were the Kommunisten - communists! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

National socialism is pretty much the benchmark, textbook definition of right wing fascism; and has zero to do with anything left-wing. Even the word "socialism" was commandeered fraudulently to capitalize on its popularity at the time. Fascism is the exact opposite of socialism.