Modern Germany and WW2

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: skyship
Interesting discussion and as a Brit living in Germany I would like to point out to the US readers not familiar with the statistics of WW2, that the US was not involved to any major extent in combat ops in the EU (Hollywood was!).
The Russians lost 20 million people, about 10 million red army and the rest civilians.
The Germans lost 10 million folks, about 7 million servicemen and the rest civilians.
The USA lost 276,000 (I forget the exact figure) in combat and 143,000 servicemen in non combat accidents, POW or illness etc. More US Army troops were killed in Jeep roll overs, flying accidents and friendly fire accidents than the Germans shot.


The USA did not suffer the same losses in Europe as the Soviets, true. But we weren't fighting on our mainland and we were fighting on two fronts. Our "Eastern Front" was the Pacific. Philippines, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Kwajalein Atoll Marshall Islands... arguably as fiercely contested as Europe. The Chinese had almost as many civillian deaths as the Soviets did.

The Japanese were not an easy opponent. Midway was the first battle their Navy had lost in 300 years

The numbers do not tell the story. The Canadians suffered about 45,000 lives lost, but few who know their story would say that they did not fight with valor. (the Canadians were largely regarded as better marksmen than their British counterparts, possibly from the numbers who grew up hunting.)




That was how my grandmother's brothers served. And yes, you are quite right, that we were regarded as better marksman and I believe for precisely the reason you've mentioned.

Interestingly enough, my grandfather, who was of German lineage fought in the RCAF as a tail gunner and later a boot camp sergeant.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

But that is nothing new. You dont hold a cemetary plot forever like you do in the US


Not here either. At the 309/202 intersection now stands a bank that used to be a small cemetary and chapel.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I spent time as corporate flight crew overseas in the 80's and early 90's.

Dresden still had bombed out buildings that were fenced off. I always thought they kept them around as a reminder. However, a recent documentary brought up the fact that reconstruction continued well into the 1990's. I found that fascinating.

Also, we went to East Germany once, for an afternoon. It was quite interesting. Just about everything was unfamiliar, the cars, the shops, the poverty, the government attitude. The contrast was stark.

Time erases all.


Dresden was an awesome city. We went there and I wasnt sure what to expect, as most of the aunts and uncles on one grandparent's lineage were there as they escaped the Russians and Ukranians who were raping and bayonetting ethnic German women in the farther east portions of what was Germany, now Poland. They were firebombed in Dresden and killed. They werent Nazis, werent members of the party, just people, living their life.

Quote:
Flight of ethnic Germans
Main article: Evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II

According to historian Antony Beevor and other commentators, the soldiers of the Red Army looted and committed many atrocities. In anticipation of the Soviet advance, many millions of Germans fled west at the last moments, attempting to avoid the counter-invasion, seeking to survive by reaching central or western Germany, or to the American and British lines.[33] This was the largest and fastest migration in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula%E2%80%93Oder_Offensive#Flight_of_ethnic_Germans

The issue is, most will say that is fair that they lose everything that they had, be stripped of their rightful possessions (land, buildings, etc., for which they got nothing), and then killed by firebombs, because after all, the actions of another justified these people being killed. Eye for an eye, right? ugh. I think that is why they try to forget and avoid it. The "holocaust", if you are willing to believe all history exactly as it is iterated in today's history books, is the most publicized thing to come out of the 20th century, IMO. Just sticking with the 40s. we have all but forgotten Pearl Harbor, D-day, etc., yet you get a TON of rememberance about the holocaust in school. Spread out a bit more, and we forget about the 20-30 million ethnic Russians killed in the 1918 Bolshevik revolution, or the 0.5-1.5M in the Armenian genocide, or all the other atrocities. In 50 years, few will remember much about 9-11, but I bet the holocaust will still be taught. And Im not saying this to be anti-semitic at all in any way, Im just questioning it, because it is what strikes me to be the case. Its weird, and the German people still carry the stigma of it. It does amaze me that they make it essentially illegal to question anything about it... There is information on US and Canadian servers, much of it from whackos, but some of it very interesting, as it discusses the news as reported on the topic from throughout Europe, and the inconsistencies with what we are now taught. I think that the German people are getting sick of the stigma now though, as parents who have lived that as first generation post WWII kids, are coming around having their own families, and dont want to see all that pushed onto their kids for yet another generation.

Anyway, in Dresden, they did a great job rebuilding the historic places. What amazed me most is how much of the Saxon treasure was maintained and protected, even under communist rule, so now that they have rebuilt the vaults, you can see the amazing stuff they have. I think it was the best museum we had ever been to.


Don't forget the rape of Nanking and the Japanese atrocities which nobody mentions either........

Unit 731.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Don't forget the rape of Nanking and the Japanese atrocities which nobody mentions either........

I cant say that Im well studied in that area, but good case in point.

 

[kb01]

This thread has really splintered off into many interesting directions. My family is Polish, and I've lived a good chunk of my life in eastern Europe.

I think there are basically three reason why that period of time, while well studied, the architecture is often bulldozed to the ground.

1) WWII isn't old by European standards.

2) The 1930s & 1940s was such a horrific period of time, that people don't want visible reminders.

3) The Soviet occupation, while definitely wanting to highlight the evilness of the Nazis, wasn't known for preservation. The past (and anything linked to nationalism) was viewed negatively and completely destroyed for the future.

As a history buff, it's definitely painful to watch such a significant part of world history destroyed. In the USA, I feel the same way whenever a Revolutionary War or Civil War battlefield is paved over or surrounded by sprawl, or whenever yet another old storefront or building is boarded up, and inevitably burns down.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Don't forget the rape of Nanking and the Japanese atrocities which nobody mentions either........

I cant say that Im well studied in that area, but good case in point.


There's a good wiki on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I spent time as corporate flight crew overseas in the 80's and early 90's.

Dresden still had bombed out buildings that were fenced off. I always thought they kept them around as a reminder. However, a recent documentary brought up the fact that reconstruction continued well into the 1990's. I found that fascinating.

Also, we went to East Germany once, for an afternoon. It was quite interesting. Just about everything was unfamiliar, the cars, the shops, the poverty, the government attitude. The contrast was stark.

Time erases all.


Dresden was an awesome city. We went there and I wasnt sure what to expect, as most of the aunts and uncles on one grandparent's lineage were there as they escaped the Russians and Ukranians who were raping and bayonetting ethnic German women in the farther east portions of what was Germany, now Poland. They were firebombed in Dresden and killed. They werent Nazis, werent members of the party, just people, living their life.

Quote:
Flight of ethnic Germans
Main article: Evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II

According to historian Antony Beevor and other commentators, the soldiers of the Red Army looted and committed many atrocities. In anticipation of the Soviet advance, many millions of Germans fled west at the last moments, attempting to avoid the counter-invasion, seeking to survive by reaching central or western Germany, or to the American and British lines.[33] This was the largest and fastest migration in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula%E2%80%93Oder_Offensive#Flight_of_ethnic_Germans

The issue is, most will say that is fair that they lose everything that they had, be stripped of their rightful possessions (land, buildings, etc., for which they got nothing), and then killed by firebombs, because after all, the actions of another justified these people being killed. Eye for an eye, right? ugh. I think that is why they try to forget and avoid it. The "holocaust", if you are willing to believe all history exactly as it is iterated in today's history books, is the most publicized thing to come out of the 20th century, IMO. Just sticking with the 40s. we have all but forgotten Pearl Harbor, D-day, etc., yet you get a TON of rememberance about the holocaust in school. Spread out a bit more, and we forget about the 20-30 million ethnic Russians killed in the 1918 Bolshevik revolution, or the 0.5-1.5M in the Armenian genocide, or all the other atrocities. In 50 years, few will remember much about 9-11, but I bet the holocaust will still be taught. And Im not saying this to be anti-semitic at all in any way, Im just questioning it, because it is what strikes me to be the case. Its weird, and the German people still carry the stigma of it. It does amaze me that they make it essentially illegal to question anything about it... There is information on US and Canadian servers, much of it from whackos, but some of it very interesting, as it discusses the news as reported on the topic from throughout Europe, and the inconsistencies with what we are now taught. I think that the German people are getting sick of the stigma now though, as parents who have lived that as first generation post WWII kids, are coming around having their own families, and dont want to see all that pushed onto their kids for yet another generation.

Anyway, in Dresden, they did a great job rebuilding the historic places. What amazed me most is how much of the Saxon treasure was maintained and protected, even under communist rule, so now that they have rebuilt the vaults, you can see the amazing stuff they have. I think it was the best museum we had ever been to.


Don't forget the rape of Nanking and the Japanese atrocities which nobody mentions either........

Unit 731.


Yes, that too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Quote:
was a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that undertook lethal human experimentation during the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945) and World War II. It was responsible for some of the most notorious war crimes carried out by Japanese personnel. Unit 731 was based at the Pingfang district of Harbin, the largest city in the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo (now Northeast China).


*snip*

Quote:
Between 3,000 and 12,000 men, women, and children—from which around 600 every year were provided by the Kempeitai—were murdered during the human experimentation conducted by Unit 731 at the camp based in Pingfang alone, which does not include victims from other medical experimentation sites. Almost 70% of the victims who died in the Pingfang camp were Chinese, including both civilian and military. Close to 30% of the victims were Russian. Some others were South East Asians and Pacific Islanders, at the time colonies of the Empire of Japan, and a small number of the prisoners of war from the Allies of World War II (although many more Allied POWs were victims of Unit 731 at other sites).
Many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials; others surrendered to the American Forces. The reason they were not tried was that the information and experience gained in the studies of the biological warfare was of a great value for the United States biological weapons development program.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: kb01
This thread has really splintered off into many interesting directions. My family is Polish, and I've lived a good chunk of my life in eastern Europe.

I think there are basically three reason why that period of time, while well studied, the architecture is often bulldozed to the ground.

1) WWII isn't old by European standards.

2) The 1930s & 1940s was such a horrific period of time, that people don't want visible reminders.

3) The Soviet occupation, while definitely wanting to highlight the evilness of the Nazis, wasn't known for preservation. The past (and anything linked to nationalism) was viewed negatively and completely destroyed for the future.

As a history buff, it's definitely painful to watch such a significant part of world history destroyed. In the USA, I feel the same way whenever a Revolutionary War or Civil War battlefield is paved over or surrounded by sprawl, or whenever yet another old storefront or building is boarded up, and inevitably burns down.

Thank you for the opinions. I appreciate that you charted a course back on topic and provided some answers to my original question.

 

[Win]

In addition to the books of the era, like Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, there are verbatim transcripts of the war crimes trials held in the late 40's that are also interesting reading.

Most law school libraries will have them (mine did) and some larger general libraries might. They may also be available on line.

The Japanese trials: "The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo War Crimes Trial)"

IIRC that one is about forty volumes.

The German Trials: "The International Military Tribunal for Germany"

Seems like this was several multi volume sets.


Oh, looks like someone put Shirer's book online:

http://gooshbe.de/upload/files/BOOKS/Shi...i_Germany_-.pdf


Yale apparently has some of the Nazi transcripts online: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

One things for sure - both of these nations were major league scumbags and richly deserved everything they got, and probably then some.

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The execution valley shooting is in Kiev. There's a mass grave that is now a soccer field. They were mowed down and bulldozed over.

Kiev was a blood bath.

There is a good Wiki article on it actually!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kiev_(1941)


maybe that's another one; the one I was at was still a valley that we were shown as part of the tour. people would leave flowers at the site.
good example of the difference between Europeans and Americans: an older lady in our group (who you would think would know better) asked "why do people leave flowers here?"

*facepalm*

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The execution valley shooting is in Kiev. There's a mass grave that is now a soccer field. They were mowed down and bulldozed over.

Kiev was a blood bath.

There is a good Wiki article on it actually!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kiev_(1941)


maybe that's another one; the one I was at was still a valley that we were shown as part of the tour. people would leave flowers at the site.
good example of the difference between Europeans and Americans: an older lady in our group (who you would think would know better) asked "why do people leave flowers here?"

*facepalm*


The one I am thinking of in Kiev (yes, there were others there as well) is called Baby Yar:

and another pic:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/challahconnection/212557598/

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials; others surrendered to the American Forces. The reason they were not tried was that the information and experience gained in the studies of the biological warfare was of a great value for the United States biological weapons development program.


Yup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#After_World_War_II

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia


After Imperial Japan surrendered to the Allies in 1945, Douglas MacArthur became the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers, rebuilding Japan during the Allied occupation. MacArthur secretly granted immunity to the physicians of Unit 731 in exchange for providing America, but not the other wartime allies, with their research on biological warfare.[10] American occupation authorities monitored the activities of former unit members, including reading and censoring their mail.[31] The U.S. believed that the research data was valuable. The U.S. did not want other nations, particularly the Soviet Union, to acquire data on biological weapons.[32]

The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal heard only one reference to Japanese experiments with "poisonous serums" on Chinese civilians. This took place in August 1946 and was instigated by David Sutton, assistant to the Chinese prosecutor. The Japanese defense counselor argued that the claim was vague and uncorroborated and it was dismissed by the tribunal president, Sir William Webb, for lack of evidence. The subject was not pursued further by Sutton, who was likely aware of Unit 731's activities. His reference to it at the trial is believed to have been accidental.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: skyship
Interesting discussion and as a Brit living in Germany I would like to point out to the US readers not familiar with the statistics of WW2, that the US was not involved to any major extent in combat ops in the EU (Hollywood was!).



Yeah the invasion of Normandy, the whole liberation of France thing, the drive to the Elbe were all minor sideshows.

Yeah it was, only drew off 10% or so of Wehrmacht manpower. Throw in Italy and we drew off I think it was 12%-15% at most.

Compared to say Kursk of the year before, yep sideshow.

If the Russians were not doing the large bulk of the fighting an invasion of France would have been unthinkable. For example if we had say Army Group Center of 1942/43 in Normandy...well we wouldn't have been on the beach for long.

Our biggest contribution to the war was our Lend Lease shipments of transport trucks and some aircraft to the Russians. The Russians didn't need tanks or guns, they made plenty of those. Actually Russia still has crates of brand new greased up Lend Lease Thompson sub machine guns, rifles, etc.

The trucks were the most useful, they never really used much else. But on the muddy Russian roads nothing could move equipment and take a beating like American trucks.

Ask anyone who knows anything about keeping armies in the field, they run on supplies and logistics. You can have the best division in the world but if your transport trucks can't bring you the food, ammo, fuel, and evacuate your wounded you can't move.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
The Germans reward for seeking economic power after WWII instead of military power is they have to pay for the excesses of the rest of the EU now.


Yeah, lol!

The kicker is Germany once had their own EU for a bit, now you couldn't give Europe to them for free if it was offered!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Perhaps I must need to be a German, born and raised, to understand better.


Yes, or maybe just a member of one of the ethnicities/religions which were butchered, en mass, by those fascist sub-humans (sub-amoebic actually).

Although some of the death camps were kept around, hopefully to remind this world that this can NEVER be allowed to happen again!

I too hope that you are talking about just a small fraction of a certain subset of the population, not painting with too broad a brush. And I hope you respond with such vigor for the Russians, Armenians, Palestinians, etc.

Unfortunately while some do remember, it seems that others dont, and this kind of stuff still happens today in Africa and elsewhere. Horrible.


Yes, I speaking of the actual, WAY BEYOND JUST MERELY "CRUEL", more than willing and able 'party members', ****bent on eradicating WHOLE, worldwide populations of various ethnicities and religions, because they deemed them "unfit" to breathe the same air as their "pure Aryan" selves, and fellow countrymen.
(I am also speaking of the current neo-**** versions of them, alive and well in this here country of ours, as well as ALL of the 'historical revisionists', and 'deniers'. Maybe they, as well as their counterparts in your 'Fatherland', are part of the reason, and NEED for the continuous unyeilding emphasis on the horrors???)
SORRY, but there is NO "getting over" this, as many (who have NEVER had genocide perpetrated on THEM) would say should be done.

And YES, I had tried to edit and revise this post, (but was told it was too late), to include those who commit the (more) modern day horrors in Darfur, Cambodia, and elsewhere, as well as the past ones in the middle east, eastern Europe, and Nanking/Manchuria.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Win
In addition to the books of the era, like Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, there are verbatim transcripts of the war crimes trials held in the late 40's that are also interesting reading.

Most law school libraries will have them (mine did) and some larger general libraries might. They may also be available on line.

The Japanese trials: "The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo War Crimes Trial)"

IIRC that one is about forty volumes.

The German Trials: "The International Military Tribunal for Germany"

Seems like this was several multi volume sets.


Oh, looks like someone put Shirer's book online:

http://gooshbe.de/upload/files/BOOKS/Shi...i_Germany_-.pdf


Yale apparently has some of the Nazi transcripts online: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

One things for sure - both of these nations were major league scumbags and richly deserved everything they got, and probably then some.


Thank you for the links. I do however have some confusion as to your last paragraph. You say this..."both of these nations were major league scumbags and richly deserved everything they got, and probably then some." Now, are you referring to the entire nation? Or are you speaking about it's leaders? I would say that what we did to Japan in the form of two atomic bombs....and the equally devastating bombing of entire German cities....well, I think what happened to the civilian populations of both nation MORE THAN paid them back for the war. Although, I'm not so sure the civilians were the ones that needed to be punished though. At least not to the degree that was done to them. And no, I'm not saying that it was entirely wrong on our part (the allies). I will say that it was horrible and should not be spoken of without at least some sort of reverence for the dead. They did not ALL deserve it.

 

[JHZR2]

Yeah, that broad brush talk like quoted there andabove is disturbing.

 

[mechtech2]

I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
And YES, I had tried to edit and revise this post, (but was told it was too late), to include those who commit the (more) modern day horrors in Darfur, Cambodia, and elsewhere, as well as the past ones in the middle east, eastern Europe, and Nanking/Manchuria.


I have some First Nations (native people in Canada; you call them "Indians") friends here who are well acquainted with the concept of "holocaust". It must be horrific beyond words to have a brutal, ruthless, arrogant, greedy, inhumane force enter your homeland and engage in wholesale atrocity.

 

[Y_K]

Interestingly, white N Americans of European descent are 40% German. Germans had Doenitz, we had Nimitz, there was also a Soviet admiral Nemetz (in Russian transliteration) - a distant relative to Nimitz, they had common Pommeranian family roots. Germans are very loyal to their new land and being Americans or Canadians fought with valor. In general that relatively small country contributed to a lot of other cultures in a big way.
Also, these guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_%28United_States%29 were something else. The most decorated unit.
There were times when people were proud to be American.. Now, kids bring home from school some other ideas