Modern Germany and WW2

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
And YES, I had tried to edit and revise this post, (but was told it was too late), to include those who commit the (more) modern day horrors in Darfur, Cambodia, and elsewhere, as well as the past ones in the middle east, eastern Europe, and Nanking/Manchuria.


I have some First Nations (native people in Canada; you call them "Indians") friends here who are well acquainted with the concept of "holocaust". It must be horrific beyond words to have a brutal, ruthless, arrogant, greedy, inhumane force enter your homeland and engage in wholesale atrocity.


Yes, agreed, despite the obvious, heavy sarcasm on your part.
I am NOT 'proud' of what my country has done to it's indigenous peoples, both in the past, and present.

The only 'saving grace' I can think of on my part is that NONE of my ancestors (and few to none of my 'ethnicity' or past religion) were even in this land (did not arrive here until at least 40 years after) when the vast majority of those past atrosities occurred against the natives of this land, falsely, in the name of their diety and savior.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
Interestingly, white N Americans of European descent are 40% German. Germans had Doenitz, we had Nimitz, there was also a Soviet admiral Nemetz (in Russian transliteration) - a distant relative to Nimitz, they had common Pommeranian family roots. Germans are very loyal to their new land and being Americans or Canadians fought with valor. In general that relatively small country contributed to a lot of other cultures in a big way.
Also, these guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_%28United_States%29 were something else. The most decorated unit.
There were times when people were proud to be American.. Now, kids bring home from school some other ideas


To the best of my knowledge, the only Hollywood reference to the 442nd was in The Karate Kid.

We finally acknowledged the Navajo Windtalkers in film. The WWI Choctaw Windtalkers go unnoticed.

I've mentioned before, my son's school has a high percentage of Muslim students. They still say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, just 1/3rd of the class remains seated and silent. His Cub Scout pack learned Flag etiquette with the Young Marines and he gets to wear his uniform to school with the other scouts and perform the flag ceremony on in-school holidays. I hope some of that stuff sticks with him through adulthood.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
In truth, I think it is rather morbid and wholly destructive to keep the old concentration camps as some sort of 'never again' memorial. It keeps guilt alive and serves no good purpose that can't otherwise be taught in school. I would have thought it more fitting to have destroyed them instead of the other historic places of interest.
My opinion.


You might be correct about that.

But, one of the reasons for keeping the death/torture camps around is so that there is PROOF against the ****head wholesale deniers, and revisionists who claim it never happened, and is just a myth propagated by some 'liberal Jews' in order to make the whole world feel sorry for them.

 

[KrisZ]

The overblown nature of Holocaust shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. After all, there is a specific ethnic group that controls a large portion of the media. Also, the whole hatred of the Jews by Hitler and his path to power was not exactly a coincidence, but that's a whole nother story, not fit for this forum.

As to why Germans are destroying these history monuments? Well, they want to separate themselves from that part of history as much as possible. As a nation, they would love to simply forget about it, and that's what they're trying to do.

As individuals, German soldiers were actually very humane and a lot of them risked their lives to help people in occupied countries. My grandfather once told me that the Germans were 100 times better than the Russians that were supposedly "liberating" him and others.
However that doesn't change the fact that Germans, as a nation bombed civilians in Poland long before even one bomb was dropped on London.
In Slavic countries, occupied by Germans, the penalty for helping a Jew was instant execution of the ENTIRE VILLAGE, including women and children! It was also only in these countries that the German officers could shoot or arrest random civilians on the street without reason what so ever. And there are hundreds of more examples like that.

So, did German people deserve what they got? In my opinion, no. Because no human being deserves the atrocities that were done and are still being done because select few have their own agenda to complete.
Do they need to be reminded of the past? Absolutely!

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: skyship
Interesting discussion and as a Brit living in Germany I would like to point out to the US readers not familiar with the statistics of WW2, that the US was not involved to any major extent in combat ops in the EU (Hollywood was!).



Yeah the invasion of Normandy, the whole liberation of France thing, the drive to the Elbe were all minor sideshows.

Yeah it was, only drew off 10% or so of Wehrmacht manpower. Throw in Italy and we drew off I think it was 12%-15% at most.

Compared to say Kursk of the year before, yep sideshow.



So was Noth Africa against the Italians and Germans. Certainly OKH considered it a sideshow. BTW, while 80% of German armed forces fought in the east from 1941 to 42, from 43 on that fell to 60%. A far cry from the 10% or so you claim.

You might also consider that Stalin spent the entire war, until D-Day, demanding a second front.Hardly something he would bother with if it only drew off 10% (There were about 40 divisions in the Balkans alone that were not in fighting outside of partisans. That alone was greater than 10%

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: dailydriver

Perhaps I must need to be a German, born and raised, to understand better.


Yes, or maybe just a member of one of the ethnicities/religions which were butchered, en mass, by those fascist sub-humans (sub-amoebic actually).

Although some of the death camps were kept around, hopefully to remind this world that this can NEVER be allowed to happen again!

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Certainly not all (or even a majority) of Germans had anything to do with what happened to those ethnic groups. I trust you were speaking more precisely about a smaller group of Nazis....and perhaps even more specifically the SS?


Yes, about them directly.
But, although I know that the general populace could not have stood up very forcefully to the Third Reich, as it was too late by then with the absolute power they took, I have to wonder just how many of them, in actual numbers/percentages, really did object to the wholesale slaughter and barbarity, or were actually glad to see this happening?


Originally Posted By: andrewg
Being objective is difficult. I understand that. We all know what happened.


Yes, being "objective", and "unemotional" (I know how you HATE emotions in public discourses) is MORE THAN just "difficult" when whole parts of one's innocent, civilian family are butchered for no other reason than their beliefs/traditions.


Maybe if I put it this way more of you could understand;

Say someone had the idea that ALL of the Anglo-Saxon, and Aryan ehtnicities were not fit to be alive.
Then they proceded to get/take power, and start to enact their 'final solution' to accomplish the above end by rounding up all of the above, put them into camps, work, starve, torture, rape, perform unspeakable experiments on them, and ultimately gas and shoot them to death. All for just being WASP, Anglo-Saxon, and Aryan.

I wonder just HOW "objective" and "unemotional" all of you would be in that scenario??

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
The overblown nature of Holocaust shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. After all, there is a specific ethnic group that controls a large portion of the media.


Oh boy, HERE WE GO.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
..... I do however have some confusion as to your last paragraph. You say this..."both of these nations were major league scumbags and richly deserved everything they got, and probably then some." Now, are you referring to the entire nation? Or are you speaking about it's leaders? .....


I don't see any way the civilian populace could not have known what was going on.

Read the history and form your own opinion. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, for better or worse.

 

[skyship]

The US made the British pay (Or exchange company ownership and land rights) for every gun, ship, plane or bullet. That decision devastated the British economy and that of our Empire by the end of WW2. The French saved most of their Gold reserves from the Germans and paid for almost nothing. Germany was bailed out by the Marshall plan so that it could act as a buffer state to the communist block and the German economy recovered to a much greater extent than the British one did.
If you stand well back and look at what happened in economic rather than human terms during WW2, then what happened was the silly peace loving Greens in charge of the UK and France were stupid enough to sit back and allow Adolf to build a very effective Army and Air Force. That oversight that Churchill ranted about led to a war that wrecked the British Empire and allowed the USA to take over as the new dominant power for very little effective cost in both economic or military terms.
The Marshall plan in combination with the huge debts that had to be paid off by the bank of England meant the UK economy only recovered very slowly and we could not even support our remaining Empire, which either elected to become independent or was taken over by US companies.
Afghanistan is in some ways a similar conflict, because the real winner is a third party, China, as they have sat on the sidelines slowly buying more of the mining or oil & gas exploration rights whilst the US and EU has run up huge debts. Only two things matter in this new world conflict, natural resources (Rare Earth metals and Oil & Gas sector)and cash in the national banks.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: andrewg
..... I do however have some confusion as to your last paragraph. You say this..."both of these nations were major league scumbags and richly deserved everything they got, and probably then some." Now, are you referring to the entire nation? Or are you speaking about it's leaders? .....


I don't see any way the civilian populace could not have known what was going on.

Read the history and form your own opinion. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, for better or worse.


When Buchenwald and Dachau were liberated by the US Army. The local civillians all insisted, "We did not know."

It's an awful lot to not know.
I think I would have had soldiers from the 92nd Infantry Division "Buffalo Soldiers" (African American) and 442nd (Japanese American) force the locals to view the concentration camps.

Unless you are one of those conspiracy guys....then those photos of townspeople forced to view the concentration camps are "faked".

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


That's not true.

German Prisoners of war captured in Africa were sent to Texas (Geneva Convention. They have to be moved to a similar climate)
Only a couple escaped. One was found marching down the side of the road singing traditional German march songs. Another, an officer, escaped mainly to point out the deficiencies in security at the camp and scolded his captors for their inefficiency.
A large number of them petitioned to stay here after the war.

 

[Shannow]

Yet even with modern instant media, when we see what's going on in our current set of wars, the attitude of a lot (even here) is that "in every omlette, a few eggs get broken"

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


That's not true.

German Prisoners of war captured in Africa were sent to Texas (Geneva Convention. They have to be moved to a similar climate)
Only a couple escaped. One was found marching down the side of the road singing traditional German march songs. Another, an officer, escaped mainly to point out the deficiencies in security at the camp and scolded his captors for their inefficiency.
A large number of them petitioned to stay here after the war.


From what he told me (and he has a lot of information on it, in both the form of photos and documentation) there were camps that were not labelled as POW camps, but some other camps, like "work camps" or the like. Their classification allowed them to not fall under the Geneva convention and so food rations and other things were assigned whimsically. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it as it was rather appalling. I was quite skeptical as well until he started showing me this huge folder of info on it that he had collected.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:

Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.

It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.


I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


That's not true.

German Prisoners of war captured in Africa were sent to Texas (Geneva Convention. They have to be moved to a similar climate)
Only a couple escaped. One was found marching down the side of the road singing traditional German march songs. Another, an officer, escaped mainly to point out the deficiencies in security at the camp and scolded his captors for their inefficiency.
A large number of them petitioned to stay here after the war.


Found some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager

Quote:
The Rheinwiesenlager (English: Rhine meadow camps), were a group of 19 camps built in the allied-occupied part of Germany by the U.S. Army to hold captured German soldiers at the close of the Second World War. Officially named Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTE), they held between one and almost two million surrendered Wehrmacht personnel from April until September 1945. Prisoners held in the camps were designated Disarmed Enemy Forces not POWs. The decision had been taken in March 1943 by SHAEF commander in chief Dwight D. Eisenhower because of the logistical problems adhering to the Geneva Convention of 1929. By not classing the hundreds of thousand of captured troops as POWs, the problems associated with accommodating so many prisoners of war according to international treaties governing their treatment was negated.
Sources for German deaths in these camps range from between 3,000 to 10,000. Many died from starvation, dehydration and exposure to the weather elements because no structures were built inside the prison compounds.


I've read of much higher death rates than what is listed above, based on how many people actually left the camps in the end.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces

Quote:
Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention.

 

[uc50ic4more]

I remember an anecdote being taught to us in elementary school regarding German POW's that were brought back to Canada. They were brought by ship to somewhere on the East coast (I want to say Halifax, but who knows...) and then were taken by train into Ontario and the prairies for safe keeping. Apparently the German soldiers were convinced that they were being taken around and around in circles to disorient them; none of them believing that a train ride from any "point A" to a "point B" could possibly take so long.

 

[Trajan]

They still fared better than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs

 

[expat]

Back on Topic.
Where I grew up, there was a Pill Box, concrete gun emplacement at the end of our street, a reminent of WWII.
As a kid we thought it cool, a place to play. My parents and others of their generation Hated it! to them it was a reminder that the day might soon come when England would be invaded, and fighting would take place IN THEIR STREET!
I recently noticed (Google Street view) that the Pill Box has now been removed.

On reflection I think it a little sad, the fortification stayed around long enough to cause un rest to my parents generation, but has now been removed when it could be of Historical interst, and an important reminder to a younger generation.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
....

I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.


We didn't have millions of German prisoners.

In contrast, letters from former German POW's to the farmers whose farms they worked while POW's in Arkansas:

http://libinfo.uark.edu/SpecialCollections/POW/

That are actually rather sad, in that life as a prisoner on a farm in Arkansas was better to these men than what was left of Germany after the war.

 

[Spazdog]

They weren't immediately repatriated to Germany.

They often had to work on labor crews in France rebuilding roads, etc...

The food was plentiful at the "Fritz Ritz". Prisoners formed an orchestra and were allowed to take correspondence courses for college credit. In some cases, they were better off than the local residents who were subject to rationing. I remember hearing a story about the prisoners being transferred to Texas by train after arriving in New York. They rode in Pullman cars. Many had only ridden in box-cars before then. They got to eat in the dining rooms of restaurants. The US Citizen-African American workers on the train had to eat in the back of the kitchen, kneeling on the hard floor.