Modern Germany and WW2

[Cujet]

I spent time as corporate flight crew overseas in the 80's and early 90's.

Dresden still had bombed out buildings that were fenced off. I always thought they kept them around as a reminder. However, a recent documentary brought up the fact that reconstruction continued well into the 1990's. I found that fascinating.

Also, we went to East Germany once, for an afternoon. It was quite interesting. Just about everything was unfamiliar, the cars, the shops, the poverty, the government attitude. The contrast was stark.

Time erases all.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Spazdog


The Japanese gave Washington DC over 3,000 cherry trees in 1912. To the best of my knowledge, they still stand to this day and bloom in the spring.




http://www.nps.gov/cherry/cherry-blossom-history.htm

December 11, four cherry trees were cut down in suspected retaliation for the Japanese attack against the U.S. Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The exact reason for the vandalism never was substantiated. In hopes of preventing future damage during the Second World War, the trees were referred to as the "Oriental" flowering cherry trees


Wow, just 4.

I did not know about that.

 

[HerrStig]

The Germans reward for seeking economic power after WWII instead of military power is they have to pay for the excesses of the rest of the EU now.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Japan is still not allowed to have a military other than a self defense force for a reason.


The reason being their 1947 Constitution. Article 9.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
The Germans reward for seeking economic power after WWII instead of military power is they have to pay for the excesses of the rest of the EU now.


And they have retained the role of being an industrial powerhouse as well. VERY strong manufacturing base in Germany.

 

[skyship]

Very true, just take a look around a German graveyard or list of WW2 dead and you will find that apart from some civilians that were killed in the bombing, nearly all their military casualities were on the Eastern front, which turned into a total horror story for all concerned.
The US Army and US Air Force did not cause the 7 million German military losses, the Russian winter caused about 40% and their red army about 90%.
Private Ryan and his buddies caused very few German losses in comparison to Private Ryanoski and the communists.

 

[skyship]

UMM! I meant 40% and 50%, which adds to 90% !!

 

[zzyzzx]

Won't you have better lock finding left over in tact German buildings in Poland? They are more like we are in the US in that we would turn it into a tourist trap or a park.

 

[tribocessive]

you are talking about casuality numbers in the battle of stalingrad; what about the strategic significance of those losses of life that took place on the western front? i can think of no valor or elan ever demonstrated throughout military history greater than that demonstrated by americans in WWII.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Perhaps I must need to be a German, born and raised, to understand better.


Yes, or maybe just a member of one of the ethnicities/religions which were butchered, en mass, by those fascist sub-humans (sub-amoebic actually).

Although some of the death camps were kept around, hopefully to remind this world that this can NEVER be allowed to happen again!

 

[cjcride]

US Air Force bombed the nazi's by daylight which was far more dangerous yet far more precise than the British bombing by night. Don't get me wrong bombing the enemy by Day & Night gave him no rest and ended the war quicker.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Interesting discussion and as a Brit living in Germany I would like to point out to the US readers not familiar with the statistics of WW2, that the US was not involved to any major extent in combat ops in the EU (Hollywood was!).
The Russians lost 20 million people, about 10 million red army and the rest civilians.
The Germans lost 10 million folks, about 7 million servicemen and the rest civilians.
The USA lost 276,000 (I forget the exact figure) in combat and 143,000 servicemen in non combat accidents, POW or illness etc. More US Army troops were killed in Jeep roll overs, flying accidents and friendly fire accidents than the Germans shot.

WW2 was a real horror story in mainland Europe and the new generation want to forget what the old one did, although oddly enough the Germans are still concerned that their right wingers will rise again in a different form and attack other citizens living or working in Germany if the economy declines in a significant way.

 

[mechtech2]

"No Jews and Negro signs on country club entrances."

This does not represent the other 99.999999% of the population.
Remember, hundreds of thousands of whites died fighting slavery.
And Christians recognize that "the Great leader" is Jewish.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I spent time as corporate flight crew overseas in the 80's and early 90's.

Dresden still had bombed out buildings that were fenced off. I always thought they kept them around as a reminder. However, a recent documentary brought up the fact that reconstruction continued well into the 1990's. I found that fascinating.

Also, we went to East Germany once, for an afternoon. It was quite interesting. Just about everything was unfamiliar, the cars, the shops, the poverty, the government attitude. The contrast was stark.

Time erases all.


Dresden was an awesome city. We went there and I wasnt sure what to expect, as most of the aunts and uncles on one grandparent's lineage were there as they escaped the Russians and Ukranians who were raping and bayonetting ethnic German women in the farther east portions of what was Germany, now Poland. They were firebombed in Dresden and killed. They werent Nazis, werent members of the party, just people, living their life.

Quote:
Flight of ethnic Germans
Main article: Evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II

According to historian Antony Beevor and other commentators, the soldiers of the Red Army looted and committed many atrocities. In anticipation of the Soviet advance, many millions of Germans fled west at the last moments, attempting to avoid the counter-invasion, seeking to survive by reaching central or western Germany, or to the American and British lines.[33] This was the largest and fastest migration in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula%E2%80%93Oder_Offensive#Flight_of_ethnic_Germans

The issue is, most will say that is fair that they lose everything that they had, be stripped of their rightful possessions (land, buildings, etc., for which they got nothing), and then killed by firebombs, because after all, the actions of another justified these people being killed. Eye for an eye, right? ugh. I think that is why they try to forget and avoid it. The "holocaust", if you are willing to believe all history exactly as it is iterated in today's history books, is the most publicized thing to come out of the 20th century, IMO. Just sticking with the 40s. we have all but forgotten Pearl Harbor, D-day, etc., yet you get a TON of rememberance about the holocaust in school. Spread out a bit more, and we forget about the 20-30 million ethnic Russians killed in the 1918 Bolshevik revolution, or the 0.5-1.5M in the Armenian genocide, or all the other atrocities. In 50 years, few will remember much about 9-11, but I bet the holocaust will still be taught. And Im not saying this to be anti-semitic at all in any way, Im just questioning it, because it is what strikes me to be the case. Its weird, and the German people still carry the stigma of it. It does amaze me that they make it essentially illegal to question anything about it... There is information on US and Canadian servers, much of it from whackos, but some of it very interesting, as it discusses the news as reported on the topic from throughout Europe, and the inconsistencies with what we are now taught. I think that the German people are getting sick of the stigma now though, as parents who have lived that as first generation post WWII kids, are coming around having their own families, and dont want to see all that pushed onto their kids for yet another generation.

Anyway, in Dresden, they did a great job rebuilding the historic places. What amazed me most is how much of the Saxon treasure was maintained and protected, even under communist rule, so now that they have rebuilt the vaults, you can see the amazing stuff they have. I think it was the best museum we had ever been to.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Won't you have better lock finding left over in tact German buildings in Poland? They are more like we are in the US in that we would turn it into a tourist trap or a park.


We went there to find the places where family had lived before it was taken from them. It was all in very sad disrepair, very dirty (likely because Ill bet they were still heating with coal - you could smell it in the air), etc. There was even battle damage on some of the buildings in places, the buildings were getting resurfaced and cleaned and cared for, but it was just left for the sake of not doing anything.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
There's a mass grave that is now a soccer field. They were mowed down and bulldozed over.



But that is nothing new. You dont hold a cemetary plot forever like you do in the US (or I assume Canada). The oldest ones I saw in a cemetery were the WWI vets, which were kept and maintained. The rest are leased for 25-30 years, and that's it. You can pay to keep it up after that, but otherwise the gravestones are crushed to rubble and the plot is used for someone else.

There is nothing sacred about a burial plot in Germany at least, based upon my experience. Some do indeed make a hobby of going and caring for the plots, which is a very nice thing. But they seem to mostly be returned and reused by someone else after the time is up. It was interesting to see at the cemeteries that we visited, the worker peoples' areas. There were hundreds of gravestones from the old graves, just laying in piles, half-smashed.

Id hate to dig those holes and see what I find!

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Won't you have better lock finding left over in tact German buildings in Poland? They are more like we are in the US in that we would turn it into a tourist trap or a park.


We went there to find the places where family had lived before it was taken from them. It was all in very sad disrepair, very dirty (likely because Ill bet they were still heating with coal - you could smell it in the air), etc. There was even battle damage on some of the buildings in places, the buildings were getting resurfaced and cleaned and cared for, but it was just left for the sake of not doing anything.

Thank you for the fascinating photo.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Perhaps I must need to be a German, born and raised, to understand better.


Yes, or maybe just a member of one of the ethnicities/religions which were butchered, en mass, by those fascist sub-humans (sub-amoebic actually).

Although some of the death camps were kept around, hopefully to remind this world that this can NEVER be allowed to happen again!

Certainly not all (or even a majority) of Germans had anything to do with what happened to those ethnic groups. I trust you were speaking more precisely about a smaller group of Nazis....and perhaps even more specifically the SS?
Being objective is difficult. I understand that. We all know what happened. But destroying historic buildings and attempting to erase history....I guess I will never understand that. In truth, I think it is rather morbid and wholly destructive to keep the old concentration camps as some sort of 'never again' memorial. It keeps guilt alive and serves no good purpose that can't otherwise be taught in school. I would have thought it more fitting to have destroyed them instead of the other historic places of interest.
My opinion.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Perhaps I must need to be a German, born and raised, to understand better.


Yes, or maybe just a member of one of the ethnicities/religions which were butchered, en mass, by those fascist sub-humans (sub-amoebic actually).

Although some of the death camps were kept around, hopefully to remind this world that this can NEVER be allowed to happen again!

I too hope that you are talking about just a small fraction of a certain subset of the population, not painting with too broad a brush. And I hope you respond with such vigor for the Russians, Armenians, Palestinians, etc.

Unfortunately while some do remember, it seems that others dont, and this kind of stuff still happens today in Africa and elsewhere. Horrible.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Interesting discussion and as a Brit living in Germany I would like to point out to the US readers not familiar with the statistics of WW2, that the US was not involved to any major extent in combat ops in the EU (Hollywood was!).
The Russians lost 20 million people, about 10 million red army and the rest civilians.
The Germans lost 10 million folks, about 7 million servicemen and the rest civilians.
The USA lost 276,000 (I forget the exact figure) in combat and 143,000 servicemen in non combat accidents, POW or illness etc. More US Army troops were killed in Jeep roll overs, flying accidents and friendly fire accidents than the Germans shot.


The USA did not suffer the same losses in Europe as the Soviets, true. But we weren't fighting on our mainland and we were fighting on two fronts. Our "Eastern Front" was the Pacific. Philippines, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Kwajalein Atoll Marshall Islands... arguably as fiercely contested as Europe. The Chinese had almost as many civillian deaths as the Soviets did.

The Japanese were not an easy opponent. Midway was the first battle their Navy had lost in 300 years

The numbers do not tell the story. The Canadians suffered about 45,000 lives lost, but few who know their story would say that they did not fight with valor. (the Canadians were largely regarded as better marksmen than their British counterparts, possibly from the numbers who grew up hunting.)

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I spent time as corporate flight crew overseas in the 80's and early 90's.

Dresden still had bombed out buildings that were fenced off. I always thought they kept them around as a reminder. However, a recent documentary brought up the fact that reconstruction continued well into the 1990's. I found that fascinating.

Also, we went to East Germany once, for an afternoon. It was quite interesting. Just about everything was unfamiliar, the cars, the shops, the poverty, the government attitude. The contrast was stark.

Time erases all.


Dresden was an awesome city. We went there and I wasnt sure what to expect, as most of the aunts and uncles on one grandparent's lineage were there as they escaped the Russians and Ukranians who were raping and bayonetting ethnic German women in the farther east portions of what was Germany, now Poland. They were firebombed in Dresden and killed. They werent Nazis, werent members of the party, just people, living their life.

Quote:
Flight of ethnic Germans
Main article: Evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II

According to historian Antony Beevor and other commentators, the soldiers of the Red Army looted and committed many atrocities. In anticipation of the Soviet advance, many millions of Germans fled west at the last moments, attempting to avoid the counter-invasion, seeking to survive by reaching central or western Germany, or to the American and British lines.[33] This was the largest and fastest migration in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula%E2%80%93Oder_Offensive#Flight_of_ethnic_Germans

The issue is, most will say that is fair that they lose everything that they had, be stripped of their rightful possessions (land, buildings, etc., for which they got nothing), and then killed by firebombs, because after all, the actions of another justified these people being killed. Eye for an eye, right? ugh. I think that is why they try to forget and avoid it. The "holocaust", if you are willing to believe all history exactly as it is iterated in today's history books, is the most publicized thing to come out of the 20th century, IMO. Just sticking with the 40s. we have all but forgotten Pearl Harbor, D-day, etc., yet you get a TON of rememberance about the holocaust in school. Spread out a bit more, and we forget about the 20-30 million ethnic Russians killed in the 1918 Bolshevik revolution, or the 0.5-1.5M in the Armenian genocide, or all the other atrocities. In 50 years, few will remember much about 9-11, but I bet the holocaust will still be taught. And Im not saying this to be anti-semitic at all in any way, Im just questioning it, because it is what strikes me to be the case. Its weird, and the German people still carry the stigma of it. It does amaze me that they make it essentially illegal to question anything about it... There is information on US and Canadian servers, much of it from whackos, but some of it very interesting, as it discusses the news as reported on the topic from throughout Europe, and the inconsistencies with what we are now taught. I think that the German people are getting sick of the stigma now though, as parents who have lived that as first generation post WWII kids, are coming around having their own families, and dont want to see all that pushed onto their kids for yet another generation.

Anyway, in Dresden, they did a great job rebuilding the historic places. What amazed me most is how much of the Saxon treasure was maintained and protected, even under communist rule, so now that they have rebuilt the vaults, you can see the amazing stuff they have. I think it was the best museum we had ever been to.


Don't forget the rape of Nanking and the Japanese atrocities which nobody mentions either........