To me, the most amazing story of WWII was the Battle of Midway Island. Western Civilization was hanging by a thread. There were 25 brave American pilots, flying slow, obsolete torpedo planes. They knew they were going to die. They ended up being a diversion so that dive bombers could destroy the Japanese Navy in a matter of minutes.
Modern Germany and WW2
- Thread starter andrewg
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What I'm hearing in all of this, is a effort to grab the high moral ground. At the end of WWII, the United States alone had the atomic bomb. We chose to rebuild the world, not conquer it. Listen to the audio of General Douglas Mac Arthur speaking after Japan signed the instrument of surrender. It took place in Tokyo Bay, aboard the battleship Missouri. General MacArthur said that "...it is hoped that a better world will emerge. These proceedings are concluded." That's it-from a normally pompous windbag. The moral compass of the Allies was in place.
Originally Posted By: tribocessive
I WOULD LIKE TO TELL EVERYONE THAT AN EAGLE NEEDS BOTH ITS LEFT WING AND ITS RIGHT WING IN ORDER TO FLY HIGH.
^^^That was fairly witty, despite the shouting caps.
I WOULD LIKE TO TELL EVERYONE THAT AN EAGLE NEEDS BOTH ITS LEFT WING AND ITS RIGHT WING IN ORDER TO FLY HIGH.
^^^That was fairly witty, despite the shouting caps.
Sorry, daily driver, this clown is still trying to relearn how to type and how to make sense. Back in the day, I actually got straight A's at UCLA. There may have been some brain damage.
Originally Posted By: tribocessive
Sorry, daily driver, this clown is still trying to relearn how to type and how to make sense. Back in the day, I actually got straight A's at UCLA. There may have been some brain damage.
Mori is that you?
Sorry, daily driver, this clown is still trying to relearn how to type and how to make sense. Back in the day, I actually got straight A's at UCLA. There may have been some brain damage.
Mori is that you?
I don't think the Germans are much different than any other nation when it comes to answering embarrasing questions about their history. I grew up in an area originally inhabitated by Cherokee and was taught very little about Cherokee history. I knew that there was something called the trail of tears and the Cherokee moved to Oklahoma and that is about it. It wasn't until I was an adult that I began to study on the events and realized what had actually happened. Even today, there are few monuments to the Cherokee in the area where I grew up, and the main Cherokee village in that area is now under water and a nuclear power plant stands nearby.
As to modern day Germany; even though they are an open democracy, and have been since Adenauer, don't make the mistake in believing you will have an American style 'bill of rights' if you live there.(or any other European country for that matter) As you mentioned, it is illegal to buy/sell/trade nazi relics or publish Mein Kampf. The Church of Scientology is all but banned there. Recently, the govt. said if individuals expected to take part in Catholic holy rites or be buried on consecrated ground, they had better make sure they pay the 15% church tax required of all members of organized churches. This would be considered gross government inteferrence and a violation of the Constitution in the United States, but it is perfectly acceptable in Germany.
As to the individual who originally posted about 'millions of German pow's dying in camps at the hands of western allies', I call bu!!$%1t. Did some die?... I'm sure a few did, but it wasn't wholesale negligence or anything of the sort.
As to the individual from the UK who didn't like the fact that they had to pay for lend lease equipment...do you think we could afford to just give you equipment and later on troops at no charge?? We ran massive budget deficits to finance our involvement in WWII. Incompetent political leadership in the UK (prior to Churchill)and France is what put your country in that predicament.
As to modern day Germany; even though they are an open democracy, and have been since Adenauer, don't make the mistake in believing you will have an American style 'bill of rights' if you live there.(or any other European country for that matter) As you mentioned, it is illegal to buy/sell/trade nazi relics or publish Mein Kampf. The Church of Scientology is all but banned there. Recently, the govt. said if individuals expected to take part in Catholic holy rites or be buried on consecrated ground, they had better make sure they pay the 15% church tax required of all members of organized churches. This would be considered gross government inteferrence and a violation of the Constitution in the United States, but it is perfectly acceptable in Germany.
As to the individual who originally posted about 'millions of German pow's dying in camps at the hands of western allies', I call bu!!$%1t. Did some die?... I'm sure a few did, but it wasn't wholesale negligence or anything of the sort.
As to the individual from the UK who didn't like the fact that they had to pay for lend lease equipment...do you think we could afford to just give you equipment and later on troops at no charge?? We ran massive budget deficits to finance our involvement in WWII. Incompetent political leadership in the UK (prior to Churchill)and France is what put your country in that predicament.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: chastn
As to the individual who originally posted about 'millions of German pow's dying in camps at the hands of western allies', I call bu!!$%1t. Did some die?... I'm sure a few did, but it wasn't wholesale negligence or anything of the sort.
If you are going to knock what I post, at least have the decency to quote what you disagree with.
Regarding DEF's (which is what I was speaking about):
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention.
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
These problems combined to create severe shortages across Germany. One summary report estimated that just prior to Victory in Europe (V-E) Day, German consumer daily caloric intake was only 1,050, and that after V-E Day it dropped to 860 calories per day, though actual estimates are confusing because of the wide variation by location and because unofficial estimates were usually higher.[14] It was clear by any measure that, by the spring of 1945, the German population was existing on rations that would not sustain life in the long term.[14] A July 1945 CCAC report stated that "the food situation in western Germany is perhaps the most serious problem of the occupation. Average consumption is now about one third below the general accepted subsistence level of 2000 calories per day."
And
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
By way of contrast, the nutritional situation in many of Germany's neighbour states was close to pre-war levels and large quantities of food was offered to Germany.[16] However, due to allied restrictions on German trade all the offers were rejected and in one case, this resulted in the Netherlands being forced to destroy a large proportion of their vegetable crop and as late as 1948 Swedish fishermen were still destroying their catch or working only two days a week due to a lack of markets.[17] In August, 1945 the Red Cross shipped 30,000 tons of high protein food parcels by rail to feed displaced persons in Germany but was forced to return them to storage where they eventually spoiled. A further 13.5 million Red Cross rations stockpiled in Europe were confiscated by the military and were never distributed. Senator Kenneth S. Wherry later complained about the thousands upon thousands of tons of rations rotting amid a starving population. Max Huber, head of the International Red Cross, wrote a letter to the U.S. State Department regarding the situation and received a letter in response, signed by Eisenhower, stating that giving Red Cross food to enemy personnel was forbidden.
Negligence? No. But then I never used that word. You have millions of people in camps without adequate food or shelter.... Many of them are going to die.
You mention the unspoken and untaught tragedies of the Cherokee in your own back yard, yet completely dismiss what I post because it obviously doesn't align with what you want to believe, despite the fact that there is a LOT of information (some of it controversial) on DEF's and the camps that they occupied. That sir, is the definition of speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
Obfuscating the facts about what happened in Germany after the war is no different than glossing over the disservice done to the indigenous people of this continent by our ancestors. Nobody likes to be lied to, and you seem genuinely upset about what happened to the Cherokee. If that is the case, then you should be equally upset about the fact that nobody speaks about the DEF's!
Dealing with that volume of people would certainly be a logistical nightmare. But they WERE starved, and based on just the citations above and issue taken with the situation by the Red Cross, who's aide was denied, there certainly was what appears to be intent to starve them.
Do I blame them? No! Would you? The Germans attempted to take over the world, committed wholesale genocide....etc I'm sure the attitude was that they deserved to be starved, that giving good food from the Red Cross would be far too kind.
We ignore that it happened now because we are embarrassed about it. It is nice when the sides are so black and white, that the lines are so clearly drawn. The Allies did no wrong, the Germans were monsters. That's how we like it portrayed. This doesn't play well into that.
History is never what we like to see her as, the pretty thing in a white dress, slamming the hammer of justice down on the ill doers of the world. In order to stop a great evil, one must do a little evil. In order to stop a slaughter, many gave their lives. And when the monster fell, good men, who were angry (and with just cause to be so!) did things that in retrospect, don't look so good in the history books. The problem with history is context. It is impossible for people today to feel what the men who participated in this war felt. The contempt and HATRED for the Germans after witnessing the atrocities committed. In that context, reclassifying POW's as DEF's so they could be starved and not violate the Geneva convention? It felt good, it felt RIGHT. Tit for tat, eye for an eye, PAYBACK.
Today, we are not proud of those actions, so we don't teach our children about them. We gloss over our HUMAN reactions that felt right in the moment and teach the pretty black and white story that makes us feel good. We modify our version of history because out of context it seems mean and spiteful.
I don't agree with that process.
As to the individual who originally posted about 'millions of German pow's dying in camps at the hands of western allies', I call bu!!$%1t. Did some die?... I'm sure a few did, but it wasn't wholesale negligence or anything of the sort.
If you are going to knock what I post, at least have the decency to quote what you disagree with.
Regarding DEF's (which is what I was speaking about):
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention.
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
These problems combined to create severe shortages across Germany. One summary report estimated that just prior to Victory in Europe (V-E) Day, German consumer daily caloric intake was only 1,050, and that after V-E Day it dropped to 860 calories per day, though actual estimates are confusing because of the wide variation by location and because unofficial estimates were usually higher.[14] It was clear by any measure that, by the spring of 1945, the German population was existing on rations that would not sustain life in the long term.[14] A July 1945 CCAC report stated that "the food situation in western Germany is perhaps the most serious problem of the occupation. Average consumption is now about one third below the general accepted subsistence level of 2000 calories per day."
And
Originally Posted By: wikipedia
By way of contrast, the nutritional situation in many of Germany's neighbour states was close to pre-war levels and large quantities of food was offered to Germany.[16] However, due to allied restrictions on German trade all the offers were rejected and in one case, this resulted in the Netherlands being forced to destroy a large proportion of their vegetable crop and as late as 1948 Swedish fishermen were still destroying their catch or working only two days a week due to a lack of markets.[17] In August, 1945 the Red Cross shipped 30,000 tons of high protein food parcels by rail to feed displaced persons in Germany but was forced to return them to storage where they eventually spoiled. A further 13.5 million Red Cross rations stockpiled in Europe were confiscated by the military and were never distributed. Senator Kenneth S. Wherry later complained about the thousands upon thousands of tons of rations rotting amid a starving population. Max Huber, head of the International Red Cross, wrote a letter to the U.S. State Department regarding the situation and received a letter in response, signed by Eisenhower, stating that giving Red Cross food to enemy personnel was forbidden.
Negligence? No. But then I never used that word. You have millions of people in camps without adequate food or shelter.... Many of them are going to die.
You mention the unspoken and untaught tragedies of the Cherokee in your own back yard, yet completely dismiss what I post because it obviously doesn't align with what you want to believe, despite the fact that there is a LOT of information (some of it controversial) on DEF's and the camps that they occupied. That sir, is the definition of speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
Obfuscating the facts about what happened in Germany after the war is no different than glossing over the disservice done to the indigenous people of this continent by our ancestors. Nobody likes to be lied to, and you seem genuinely upset about what happened to the Cherokee. If that is the case, then you should be equally upset about the fact that nobody speaks about the DEF's!
Dealing with that volume of people would certainly be a logistical nightmare. But they WERE starved, and based on just the citations above and issue taken with the situation by the Red Cross, who's aide was denied, there certainly was what appears to be intent to starve them.
Do I blame them? No! Would you? The Germans attempted to take over the world, committed wholesale genocide....etc I'm sure the attitude was that they deserved to be starved, that giving good food from the Red Cross would be far too kind.
We ignore that it happened now because we are embarrassed about it. It is nice when the sides are so black and white, that the lines are so clearly drawn. The Allies did no wrong, the Germans were monsters. That's how we like it portrayed. This doesn't play well into that.
History is never what we like to see her as, the pretty thing in a white dress, slamming the hammer of justice down on the ill doers of the world. In order to stop a great evil, one must do a little evil. In order to stop a slaughter, many gave their lives. And when the monster fell, good men, who were angry (and with just cause to be so!) did things that in retrospect, don't look so good in the history books. The problem with history is context. It is impossible for people today to feel what the men who participated in this war felt. The contempt and HATRED for the Germans after witnessing the atrocities committed. In that context, reclassifying POW's as DEF's so they could be starved and not violate the Geneva convention? It felt good, it felt RIGHT. Tit for tat, eye for an eye, PAYBACK.
Today, we are not proud of those actions, so we don't teach our children about them. We gloss over our HUMAN reactions that felt right in the moment and teach the pretty black and white story that makes us feel good. We modify our version of history because out of context it seems mean and spiteful.
I don't agree with that process.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:
Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.
It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.
I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.
What a dissertation. It sounds like I might have stepped on your toes a little bit. Here is your quote and I still say there is absolutely no evidence that the United States either negligently or deliberately starved millions of German POW's to death in camps. Your German war buddy sounds like he is either senile or still bitter about the war. You, sir, should have more integrity than to spread such nonsense. FYI, I like Wikipedia as much as anyone, but it should never be considered a rock solid source for information. Any high school student writing a term paper can tell you that. Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
Now I am probably not as much at odds with your viewpoints as you think. There are plenty of things the western allies can be ashamed of without making things up. As someone previously mentioned, the firebombing of Dresden, the RAF policy of 'dehousing' the workers (with their wives and children still in the houses)in the Ruhr Valley industrial area, neglecting to bomb railroads leading to concentrations camps etc... come to mind as I am sure many others. Could the United States have done more to help displaced Germans? Probably so. But I think any shortcomings we had were more than made up for in the Marshall Plan, and by our participation in NATO after the war.
You must remember, the western borders of the USSR, and the west and east borders of Poland all moved west. East Prussia disappeared and the Sudeten germans were expelled from Czechoslovakia. Millions of people were displaced. This would have been a bad situation in peace time. In the aftermath of the deadliest war in human history with one of the allied combatants hostile to the others, it was a catastrophe.
No, I don't make light of or ignore the suffering of the German people during or after the war. I don't make light of the suffering of the Poles, Jews, Ukranians, Russians etc.... who suffered either. Maybe the German suffering doesn't get as much press as it deserves. Such is war. They should have called it good in about 1937 with the territorial gains they had already made and not invaded Poland and later the USSR.
And yes I do have sympathy toward the Native Americans who were so callously displaced and killed in our country. I also have sympathy for the peoples of war torn countries to include Germany and Japan of 70 years ago. One slight difference though; the Cherokee did not rise up to invade, pillage, and plunder their neighbors as the Germans and Japanese did.
No hard feeling though buddy.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I find this odd:
Our aged parts delivery guy, Johann, was a submariner in WWII [Germany].
He actually likes the Russians, and resents the Americans!
When he went home after the war, he said the Americans took over his home, and others.
He made his way over to the USA then.
It makes me wonder about what the generally accepted history really is.
I've heard a similar story from one of my WWII era German buddies (served in the Junior Luftwaffe). Said the Russians weren't that bad, but that the US "detainment" camps were where many millions of German POW's were starved to death.
What a dissertation. It sounds like I might have stepped on your toes a little bit. Here is your quote and I still say there is absolutely no evidence that the United States either negligently or deliberately starved millions of German POW's to death in camps. Your German war buddy sounds like he is either senile or still bitter about the war. You, sir, should have more integrity than to spread such nonsense. FYI, I like Wikipedia as much as anyone, but it should never be considered a rock solid source for information. Any high school student writing a term paper can tell you that. Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
Now I am probably not as much at odds with your viewpoints as you think. There are plenty of things the western allies can be ashamed of without making things up. As someone previously mentioned, the firebombing of Dresden, the RAF policy of 'dehousing' the workers (with their wives and children still in the houses)in the Ruhr Valley industrial area, neglecting to bomb railroads leading to concentrations camps etc... come to mind as I am sure many others. Could the United States have done more to help displaced Germans? Probably so. But I think any shortcomings we had were more than made up for in the Marshall Plan, and by our participation in NATO after the war.
You must remember, the western borders of the USSR, and the west and east borders of Poland all moved west. East Prussia disappeared and the Sudeten germans were expelled from Czechoslovakia. Millions of people were displaced. This would have been a bad situation in peace time. In the aftermath of the deadliest war in human history with one of the allied combatants hostile to the others, it was a catastrophe.
No, I don't make light of or ignore the suffering of the German people during or after the war. I don't make light of the suffering of the Poles, Jews, Ukranians, Russians etc.... who suffered either. Maybe the German suffering doesn't get as much press as it deserves. Such is war. They should have called it good in about 1937 with the territorial gains they had already made and not invaded Poland and later the USSR.
And yes I do have sympathy toward the Native Americans who were so callously displaced and killed in our country. I also have sympathy for the peoples of war torn countries to include Germany and Japan of 70 years ago. One slight difference though; the Cherokee did not rise up to invade, pillage, and plunder their neighbors as the Germans and Japanese did.
No hard feeling though buddy.
Originally Posted By: chastn
And yes I do have sympathy toward the Native Americans who were so callously displaced and killed in our country. I also have sympathy for the peoples of war torn countries to include Germany and Japan of 70 years ago. One slight difference though; the Cherokee did not rise up to invade, pillage, and plunder their neighbors as the Germans and Japanese did.
THANK YOU!
Also, although we were definitely not "in the right" concerning our supposed treatment of Nazi prisoners (let's remember here WHAT they were, and stop apologetically calling them "Germans"
), we did NOT go about it as a pre-meditated, purposeful, "final solution", executed with Teutonic efficiency and precision, as THEY did to the peoples they thought not fit to live.
And yes I do have sympathy toward the Native Americans who were so callously displaced and killed in our country. I also have sympathy for the peoples of war torn countries to include Germany and Japan of 70 years ago. One slight difference though; the Cherokee did not rise up to invade, pillage, and plunder their neighbors as the Germans and Japanese did.
THANK YOU!
Also, although we were definitely not "in the right" concerning our supposed treatment of Nazi prisoners (let's remember here WHAT they were, and stop apologetically calling them "Germans"
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: chastn
What a dissertation. It sounds like I might have stepped on your toes a little bit. Here is your quote and I still say there is absolutely no evidence that the United States either negligently or deliberately starved millions of German POW's to death in camps. Your German war buddy sounds like he is either senile or still bitter about the war. You, sir, should have more integrity than to spread such nonsense. FYI, I like Wikipedia as much as anyone, but it should never be considered a rock solid source for information. Any high school student writing a term paper can tell you that. Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
While I agree with your sentiment about Wikipedia, it is easy to quote, far easier than books and articles on DEF's, which I'm sure you would agree.
And no, not stepping on any toes, but I made MANY posts in this thread, and quite a few of them about this topic, but you seem to have only focused on my first one... why?
The quote you've taken issue with clearly noted my use of the term "story". And that's what it was.
I followed up that post with this one:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
From what he told me (and he has a lot of information on it, in both the form of photos and documentation) there were camps that were not labelled as POW camps, but some other camps, like "work camps" or the like. Their classification allowed them to not fall under the Geneva convention and so food rations and other things were assigned whimsically. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it as it was rather appalling. I was quite skeptical as well until he started showing me this huge folder of info on it that he had collected.
And posted the Wikipedia info in this post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2754500#Post2754500
Which makes reference to both Rheinwiesenlager and the DEF's.
Regarding the post you took me to task over, Nickdfresh beat you to the punch
I replied to him here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755038#Post2755038
And stated this:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I very clearly said that those were the numbers HE cited in the folder of info he had. And I do recall it listing something of an estimate of 1.2 million people based on the number of people that left the camps.
In my own reading on the topic, again, I did see much higher death rates (than those shown in Wikipedia) listed from certain sources.
And
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yet clearly, the history on the topic of The Rheinwiesenlager and DEF's shows that we certainly DID have millions of Germans in camps (19 camps). And while we can certainly argue about how many of them starved to death or died due to disease (it is certainly quite possible that my old Luftwaffe buddy has used some generous numbers to bolster his argument), the fact of the matter is that I've had two people in this very thread tell me that what I mentioned didn't happen, when it clearly did.
Did you not read my follow up posts on the topic before getting up in arms about my first one?
I agree with much of the rest of your post. And for the sake of clarity, I am not comparing the situations between post WWII Germans, the DEF classification and starvation to the situation of that of the Cherokee people. My point was simply that they share the common thread of being glossed over in the history books, conveniently left out of the story so to speak because they are things we aren't proud of.
What a dissertation. It sounds like I might have stepped on your toes a little bit. Here is your quote and I still say there is absolutely no evidence that the United States either negligently or deliberately starved millions of German POW's to death in camps. Your German war buddy sounds like he is either senile or still bitter about the war. You, sir, should have more integrity than to spread such nonsense. FYI, I like Wikipedia as much as anyone, but it should never be considered a rock solid source for information. Any high school student writing a term paper can tell you that. Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
While I agree with your sentiment about Wikipedia, it is easy to quote, far easier than books and articles on DEF's, which I'm sure you would agree.
And no, not stepping on any toes, but I made MANY posts in this thread, and quite a few of them about this topic, but you seem to have only focused on my first one... why?
The quote you've taken issue with clearly noted my use of the term "story". And that's what it was.
I followed up that post with this one:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
From what he told me (and he has a lot of information on it, in both the form of photos and documentation) there were camps that were not labelled as POW camps, but some other camps, like "work camps" or the like. Their classification allowed them to not fall under the Geneva convention and so food rations and other things were assigned whimsically. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it as it was rather appalling. I was quite skeptical as well until he started showing me this huge folder of info on it that he had collected.
And posted the Wikipedia info in this post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2754500#Post2754500
Which makes reference to both Rheinwiesenlager and the DEF's.
Regarding the post you took me to task over, Nickdfresh beat you to the punch
I replied to him here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755038#Post2755038
And stated this:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I very clearly said that those were the numbers HE cited in the folder of info he had. And I do recall it listing something of an estimate of 1.2 million people based on the number of people that left the camps.
In my own reading on the topic, again, I did see much higher death rates (than those shown in Wikipedia) listed from certain sources.
And
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yet clearly, the history on the topic of The Rheinwiesenlager and DEF's shows that we certainly DID have millions of Germans in camps (19 camps). And while we can certainly argue about how many of them starved to death or died due to disease (it is certainly quite possible that my old Luftwaffe buddy has used some generous numbers to bolster his argument), the fact of the matter is that I've had two people in this very thread tell me that what I mentioned didn't happen, when it clearly did.
Did you not read my follow up posts on the topic before getting up in arms about my first one?
I agree with much of the rest of your post. And for the sake of clarity, I am not comparing the situations between post WWII Germans, the DEF classification and starvation to the situation of that of the Cherokee people. My point was simply that they share the common thread of being glossed over in the history books, conveniently left out of the story so to speak because they are things we aren't proud of.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Also, although we were definitely not "in the right" concerning our supposed treatment of Nazi prisoners (let's remember here WHAT they were, and stop apologetically calling them "Germans"
), we did NOT go about it as a pre-meditated, purposeful, "final solution", executed with Teutonic efficiency and precision, as THEY did to the peoples they thought not fit to live.
You're ascribing a lot of monstrously evil characteristics to a bunch of soldiers. Was it a foot soldier on a beach in the South Pacific who dropped the bomb?
Also, although we were definitely not "in the right" concerning our supposed treatment of Nazi prisoners (let's remember here WHAT they were, and stop apologetically calling them "Germans"
You're ascribing a lot of monstrously evil characteristics to a bunch of soldiers. Was it a foot soldier on a beach in the South Pacific who dropped the bomb?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
What a dissertation. It sounds like I might have stepped on your toes a little bit. Here is your quote and I still say there is absolutely no evidence that the United States either negligently or deliberately starved millions of German POW's to death in camps. Your German war buddy sounds like he is either senile or still bitter about the war. You, sir, should have more integrity than to spread such nonsense. FYI, I like Wikipedia as much as anyone, but it should never be considered a rock solid source for information. Any high school student writing a term paper can tell you that. Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
While I agree with your sentiment about Wikipedia, it is easy to quote, far easier than books and articles on DEF's, which I'm sure you would agree.
And no, not stepping on any toes, but I made MANY posts in this thread, and quite a few of them about this topic, but you seem to have only focused on my first one... why?
The quote you've taken issue with clearly noted my use of the term "story". And that's what it was.
I followed up that post with this one:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
From what he told me (and he has a lot of information on it, in both the form of photos and documentation) there were camps that were not labelled as POW camps, but some other camps, like "work camps" or the like. Their classification allowed them to not fall under the Geneva convention and so food rations and other things were assigned whimsically. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it as it was rather appalling. I was quite skeptical as well until he started showing me this huge folder of info on it that he had collected.
And posted the Wikipedia info in this post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2754500#Post2754500
Which makes reference to both Rheinwiesenlager and the DEF's.
Regarding the post you took me to task over, Nickdfresh beat you to the punch
I replied to him here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755038#Post2755038
And stated this:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I very clearly said that those were the numbers HE cited in the folder of info he had. And I do recall it listing something of an estimate of 1.2 million people based on the number of people that left the camps.
In my own reading on the topic, again, I did see much higher death rates (than those shown in Wikipedia) listed from certain sources.
And
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yet clearly, the history on the topic of The Rheinwiesenlager and DEF's shows that we certainly DID have millions of Germans in camps (19 camps). And while we can certainly argue about how many of them starved to death or died due to disease (it is certainly quite possible that my old Luftwaffe buddy has used some generous numbers to bolster his argument), the fact of the matter is that I've had two people in this very thread tell me that what I mentioned didn't happen, when it clearly did.
Did you not read my follow up posts on the topic before getting up in arms about my first one?
I agree with much of the rest of your post. And for the sake of clarity, I am not comparing the situations between post WWII Germans, the DEF classification and starvation to the situation of that of the Cherokee people. My point was simply that they share the common thread of being glossed over in the history books, conveniently left out of the story so to speak because they are things we aren't proud of.
Well, from your threads, you are saying the United States either did or didn't starve millions of Germans soldiers to death after WWII. Make up your mind. Did they or didn't they? As for your elderly nazi air force buddy, either he lied or he didn't. Where is the proof. Facts, documents, reports from reputable sources etc... is what is needed. You have none. You will never come up with proof of this. The Russians would have loved to smear this in our faces if it had actually happened. Now I have heard of some 300,000 German troops deported to Sibera for a number of years and only 100,000 or so came back. Tragic, yes, but Joe Stalin was not exactly a Santa Claus type figure.
Now I did, in order to find info on both sides of the story, do some web searches on the topic and much to my amazement I did find information on exactly what you are talking about. I found information from two different sources (not Wikipedia). Both were extreme right wing xenephobic anti-semitic websites; with an emphasis on anti-semitism. You know the type, they claim the Jews are responsible for 9/11 and a whole host of other [censored]. Both quoted a Mr. Bacque spewing much of what you have. I did look at the Wikipedia site, and he was also quoted under a controversy heading.
We all know Europeans by the millions were displaced at the end of WWII. Some combatants ended up in camps and invariabily many died from disease, unsantitary conditions etc.. But even putting an idea at the United States intentionally starved millions of German pow's is irresponsibile and without merit.
Be careful what causes you take up my friend. Ask your old nazi buddy what Mr. Hitler did to his old comrades (Ernst Rohm and the brownshirts) when they were no longer useful.
Originally Posted By: chastn
What a dissertation. It sounds like I might have stepped on your toes a little bit. Here is your quote and I still say there is absolutely no evidence that the United States either negligently or deliberately starved millions of German POW's to death in camps. Your German war buddy sounds like he is either senile or still bitter about the war. You, sir, should have more integrity than to spread such nonsense. FYI, I like Wikipedia as much as anyone, but it should never be considered a rock solid source for information. Any high school student writing a term paper can tell you that. Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
While I agree with your sentiment about Wikipedia, it is easy to quote, far easier than books and articles on DEF's, which I'm sure you would agree.
And no, not stepping on any toes, but I made MANY posts in this thread, and quite a few of them about this topic, but you seem to have only focused on my first one... why?
The quote you've taken issue with clearly noted my use of the term "story". And that's what it was.
I followed up that post with this one:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
From what he told me (and he has a lot of information on it, in both the form of photos and documentation) there were camps that were not labelled as POW camps, but some other camps, like "work camps" or the like. Their classification allowed them to not fall under the Geneva convention and so food rations and other things were assigned whimsically. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it as it was rather appalling. I was quite skeptical as well until he started showing me this huge folder of info on it that he had collected.
And posted the Wikipedia info in this post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2754500#Post2754500
Which makes reference to both Rheinwiesenlager and the DEF's.
Regarding the post you took me to task over, Nickdfresh beat you to the punch
I replied to him here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755038#Post2755038
And stated this:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I very clearly said that those were the numbers HE cited in the folder of info he had. And I do recall it listing something of an estimate of 1.2 million people based on the number of people that left the camps.
In my own reading on the topic, again, I did see much higher death rates (than those shown in Wikipedia) listed from certain sources.
And
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yet clearly, the history on the topic of The Rheinwiesenlager and DEF's shows that we certainly DID have millions of Germans in camps (19 camps). And while we can certainly argue about how many of them starved to death or died due to disease (it is certainly quite possible that my old Luftwaffe buddy has used some generous numbers to bolster his argument), the fact of the matter is that I've had two people in this very thread tell me that what I mentioned didn't happen, when it clearly did.
Did you not read my follow up posts on the topic before getting up in arms about my first one?
I agree with much of the rest of your post. And for the sake of clarity, I am not comparing the situations between post WWII Germans, the DEF classification and starvation to the situation of that of the Cherokee people. My point was simply that they share the common thread of being glossed over in the history books, conveniently left out of the story so to speak because they are things we aren't proud of.
Well, from your threads, you are saying the United States either did or didn't starve millions of Germans soldiers to death after WWII. Make up your mind. Did they or didn't they? As for your elderly nazi air force buddy, either he lied or he didn't. Where is the proof. Facts, documents, reports from reputable sources etc... is what is needed. You have none. You will never come up with proof of this. The Russians would have loved to smear this in our faces if it had actually happened. Now I have heard of some 300,000 German troops deported to Sibera for a number of years and only 100,000 or so came back. Tragic, yes, but Joe Stalin was not exactly a Santa Claus type figure.
Now I did, in order to find info on both sides of the story, do some web searches on the topic and much to my amazement I did find information on exactly what you are talking about. I found information from two different sources (not Wikipedia). Both were extreme right wing xenephobic anti-semitic websites; with an emphasis on anti-semitism. You know the type, they claim the Jews are responsible for 9/11 and a whole host of other [censored]. Both quoted a Mr. Bacque spewing much of what you have. I did look at the Wikipedia site, and he was also quoted under a controversy heading.
We all know Europeans by the millions were displaced at the end of WWII. Some combatants ended up in camps and invariabily many died from disease, unsantitary conditions etc.. But even putting an idea at the United States intentionally starved millions of German pow's is irresponsibile and without merit.
Be careful what causes you take up my friend. Ask your old nazi buddy what Mr. Hitler did to his old comrades (Ernst Rohm and the brownshirts) when they were no longer useful.
Originally Posted By: tribocessive
To me, the most amazing story of WWII was the Battle of Midway Island. Western Civilization was hanging by a thread. There were 25 brave American pilots, flying slow, obsolete torpedo planes. They knew they were going to die. They ended up being a diversion so that dive bombers could destroy the Japanese Navy in a matter of minutes.
Hyperbole much?
To me, the most amazing story of WWII was the Battle of Midway Island. Western Civilization was hanging by a thread. There were 25 brave American pilots, flying slow, obsolete torpedo planes. They knew they were going to die. They ended up being a diversion so that dive bombers could destroy the Japanese Navy in a matter of minutes.
Hyperbole much?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
I clicked on your link and it reaffirms what I put in my last post. Toward the end of the text, it is filled with anti-semitic trash. I suppose some things never change.
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
I clicked on your link and it reaffirms what I put in my last post. Toward the end of the text, it is filled with anti-semitic trash. I suppose some things never change.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: chastn
Well, from your threads, you are saying the United States either did or didn't starve millions of Germans soldiers to death after WWII.
No, I'm saying that a large number of Germans starved to death or due to exposure, disease...etc under the DEF designation. I mentioned one set of numbers that was claimed by a buddy in a "story" and also stated that this number varies quite significantly based on what account of the DEF situation you are reading. Wikipedia's numbers are probably the lowest I've seen. But they still validate its existence, which was what I was trying to prove.
Quote:
Make up your mind. Did they or didn't they?
I don't need to make up my mind. There is plenty of (reputable) information on DEF's. The controversy surrounds the purpose of the designation and the number of people that died under it.
Quote:
As for your elderly nazi air force buddy, either he lied or he didn't.
I think he exaggerated the numbers. But then I already said that this was a distinct possibility when attempting to illustrate the point he was trying to make.
Quote:
Where is the proof. Facts, documents, reports from reputable sources etc... is what is needed. You have none.
There are plenty of them cited as sources in the one document I linked above.
Quote:
You will never come up with proof of this. The Russians would have loved to smear this in our faces if it had actually happened.
Smeared what? that there were people in isolated camps that, due to the distribution system of supplies and their designation as DEF's, happened to die? Why is that smear worthy? The Russians were far, FAR worse (also mentioned, in GREAT DETAIL in the article I just linked to).
Quote:
Now I have heard of some 300,000 German troops deported to Sibera for a number of years and only 100,000 or so came back. Tragic, yes, but Joe Stalin was not exactly a Santa Claus type figure.
Now I did, in order to find info on both sides of the story, do some web searches on the topic and much to my amazement I did find information on exactly what you are talking about. I found information from two different sources (not Wikipedia). Both were extreme right wing xenephobic anti-semitic websites; with an emphasis on anti-semitism. You know the type, they claim the Jews are responsible for 9/11 and a whole host of other [censored]. Both quoted a Mr. Bacque spewing much of what you have. I did look at the Wikipedia site, and he was also quoted under a controversy heading.
Bacque is essentially a quack who took the topic of DEF's, polarized it, blamed Ike for committing what essentially amounts to genocide through the DEF program and a whole host of other claims.
His (exaggerated) death numbers are in-line with what my buddy quoted, however... But he is not the only one who claims higher death figures than what were cited in the Wikipedia article, which are on the very conservative side of the scale even in comparison to the numbers given in the article I linked above.
Bacque's very alarmist book on the topic is a disservice to it.
Quote:
We all know Europeans by the millions were displaced at the end of WWII. Some combatants ended up in camps and invariabily many died from disease, unsantitary conditions etc.. But even putting an idea at the United States intentionally starved millions of German pow's is irresponsibile and without merit.
Be careful what causes you take up my friend. Ask your old nazi buddy what Mr. Hitler did to his old comrades (Ernst Rohm and the brownshirts) when they were no longer useful.
You are really not understanding me in this thread. Causes I've undertaken? My cause was simply to illustrate that DEF's existed. I was told they didn't.
The designation existed to free the allies from the constraints of the Geneva convention with regards to the HUGE number of displaced German POW's that they had to deal with in addition to the already massive number of non-combatant civilians. It allowed them to be flexible with rations, conditions and care, and due to that flexibility, a large number of them died. It was certainly intentional (the designation) as the flexibility was felt to be a necessity if proper care was to be given to those who were covered under the stipulations of the convention.
It is what it is: a loophole in the convention leveraged so that sub convention-level care and conditions could be given to POW's who were subsequently classified as DEF's instead. Do I think the PURPOSE was to starve many of them to death? No. But that was the result.
Well, from your threads, you are saying the United States either did or didn't starve millions of Germans soldiers to death after WWII.
No, I'm saying that a large number of Germans starved to death or due to exposure, disease...etc under the DEF designation. I mentioned one set of numbers that was claimed by a buddy in a "story" and also stated that this number varies quite significantly based on what account of the DEF situation you are reading. Wikipedia's numbers are probably the lowest I've seen. But they still validate its existence, which was what I was trying to prove.
Quote:
Make up your mind. Did they or didn't they?
I don't need to make up my mind. There is plenty of (reputable) information on DEF's. The controversy surrounds the purpose of the designation and the number of people that died under it.
Quote:
As for your elderly nazi air force buddy, either he lied or he didn't.
I think he exaggerated the numbers. But then I already said that this was a distinct possibility when attempting to illustrate the point he was trying to make.
Quote:
Where is the proof. Facts, documents, reports from reputable sources etc... is what is needed. You have none.
There are plenty of them cited as sources in the one document I linked above.
Quote:
You will never come up with proof of this. The Russians would have loved to smear this in our faces if it had actually happened.
Smeared what? that there were people in isolated camps that, due to the distribution system of supplies and their designation as DEF's, happened to die? Why is that smear worthy? The Russians were far, FAR worse (also mentioned, in GREAT DETAIL in the article I just linked to).
Quote:
Now I have heard of some 300,000 German troops deported to Sibera for a number of years and only 100,000 or so came back. Tragic, yes, but Joe Stalin was not exactly a Santa Claus type figure.
Now I did, in order to find info on both sides of the story, do some web searches on the topic and much to my amazement I did find information on exactly what you are talking about. I found information from two different sources (not Wikipedia). Both were extreme right wing xenephobic anti-semitic websites; with an emphasis on anti-semitism. You know the type, they claim the Jews are responsible for 9/11 and a whole host of other [censored]. Both quoted a Mr. Bacque spewing much of what you have. I did look at the Wikipedia site, and he was also quoted under a controversy heading.
Bacque is essentially a quack who took the topic of DEF's, polarized it, blamed Ike for committing what essentially amounts to genocide through the DEF program and a whole host of other claims.
His (exaggerated) death numbers are in-line with what my buddy quoted, however... But he is not the only one who claims higher death figures than what were cited in the Wikipedia article, which are on the very conservative side of the scale even in comparison to the numbers given in the article I linked above.
Bacque's very alarmist book on the topic is a disservice to it.
Quote:
We all know Europeans by the millions were displaced at the end of WWII. Some combatants ended up in camps and invariabily many died from disease, unsantitary conditions etc.. But even putting an idea at the United States intentionally starved millions of German pow's is irresponsibile and without merit.
Be careful what causes you take up my friend. Ask your old nazi buddy what Mr. Hitler did to his old comrades (Ernst Rohm and the brownshirts) when they were no longer useful.
You are really not understanding me in this thread. Causes I've undertaken? My cause was simply to illustrate that DEF's existed. I was told they didn't.
The designation existed to free the allies from the constraints of the Geneva convention with regards to the HUGE number of displaced German POW's that they had to deal with in addition to the already massive number of non-combatant civilians. It allowed them to be flexible with rations, conditions and care, and due to that flexibility, a large number of them died. It was certainly intentional (the designation) as the flexibility was felt to be a necessity if proper care was to be given to those who were covered under the stipulations of the convention.
It is what it is: a loophole in the convention leveraged so that sub convention-level care and conditions could be given to POW's who were subsequently classified as DEF's instead. Do I think the PURPOSE was to starve many of them to death? No. But that was the result.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: chastn
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
I clicked on your link and it reaffirms what I put in my last post. Toward the end of the text, it is filled with anti-semitic trash. I suppose some things never change.
I linked the article for the sources listed at the end of it, not the opinion of the author. The article is not a history piece, it is an OPINION piece which touches on the topic of DEF's and gives sources, that is why I linked it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
I clicked on your link and it reaffirms what I put in my last post. Toward the end of the text, it is filled with anti-semitic trash. I suppose some things never change.
I linked the article for the sources listed at the end of it, not the opinion of the author. The article is not a history piece, it is an OPINION piece which touches on the topic of DEF's and gives sources, that is why I linked it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
I clicked on your link and it reaffirms what I put in my last post. Toward the end of the text, it is filled with anti-semitic trash. I suppose some things never change.
I linked the article for the sources listed at the end of it, not the opinion of the author. The article is not a history piece, it is an OPINION piece which touches on the topic of DEF's and gives sources, that is why I linked it.
Yes, a vehemently anti-semitic OPINION. Toward the end of the article, I couldn't believe what I was reading. All propaganda uses sources, and this one was no exception. After I read the anti-jewish nonsense and realized what their angle was, all credibility of the article to include sources was lost. I believe most rational minded people would think this way.
Many years ago, over 30 I think, I took an upper level college course callled 'History of Europe since 1945'. I took it as an elective. I do remember studying about the immediate aftermath of WWII and the incredibile challenges the allies had in dealing with disiplaced persons, to include pow's and unarmed former combatants. The western allies were overwhelmed. This is not news. It is taught in the schools. You mentioned in your first post about millions of pow's intentionally starved by the United States. After reading some of your later posts, you have evidently backed off of this number. Good for you.
You should examine your motives in this topic. I don't think it has anything to do with getting to the truth. After reading the article you linked and it's nasty anti-jewish content, I think I know what what your motives are.
Originally Posted By: chastn
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chastn
Actual governmental or private organizational records (ie. Red Cross) are preferable.
This article (which focuses primarily on the Soviets but covers the DEF's quite well):
http://www.ihr.org/other/july09weber.html
Has a long list of references at the end of it that should be easily verifiable at your local public library.
I've done a fair bit of reading on this topic. The numbers, depending on the source, are all over the map. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. And that is what I was pointing out.
I clicked on your link and it reaffirms what I put in my last post. Toward the end of the text, it is filled with anti-semitic trash. I suppose some things never change.
I linked the article for the sources listed at the end of it, not the opinion of the author. The article is not a history piece, it is an OPINION piece which touches on the topic of DEF's and gives sources, that is why I linked it.
Yes, a vehemently anti-semitic OPINION. Toward the end of the article, I couldn't believe what I was reading. All propaganda uses sources, and this one was no exception. After I read the anti-jewish nonsense and realized what their angle was, all credibility of the article to include sources was lost. I believe most rational minded people would think this way.
Many years ago, over 30 I think, I took an upper level college course callled 'History of Europe since 1945'. I took it as an elective. I do remember studying about the immediate aftermath of WWII and the incredibile challenges the allies had in dealing with disiplaced persons, to include pow's and unarmed former combatants. The western allies were overwhelmed. This is not news. It is taught in the schools. You mentioned in your first post about millions of pow's intentionally starved by the United States. After reading some of your later posts, you have evidently backed off of this number. Good for you.
You should examine your motives in this topic. I don't think it has anything to do with getting to the truth. After reading the article you linked and it's nasty anti-jewish content, I think I know what what your motives are.
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