Was not Amsoil there first with synthetics? That is what I have always heard. Of course lots of companies have worked with synthetics for a long time but I always thought Amsoil was there first with a synthetic oil for car and truck engines.
Mobil Comments on NORIA
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The add-pack also seems suspect, as MaxLife typically has well over 2000 calcium...
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What's your point, AJ?
MaxLife 10w-40 is not a mineral oil, it's a synthetic blend. 7k miles is not 15K+ miles. And S52 is not a 2009 BMW engine.
Originally Posted By: finalyzd
What if I ran dino in a 2009 bmw??
What's your point, AJ?
MaxLife 10w-40 is not a mineral oil, it's a synthetic blend. 7k miles is not 15K+ miles. And S52 is not a 2009 BMW engine.
Originally Posted By: finalyzd
What if I ran dino in a 2009 bmw??
IIRC the Germans had Synthetic Oils durning WWII. As far as the article a good read, and probably a lot more than half true. Makes sense that the big boys have the best resources, and smaller companies copy them. That's quite common and cost effective, but they could be behind in technology, maybe?
One could argue that they are copied and improved upon, that's they story I'd use if I were selling the product. If I wasn't but still had a dog in the fight, I'd run with the article. JMO so lets not get too defensive and turn it on an attack against me.
One could argue that they are copied and improved upon, that's they story I'd use if I were selling the product. If I wasn't but still had a dog in the fight, I'd run with the article. JMO so lets not get too defensive and turn it on an attack against me.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
PAO is very short in the whole industry, still. Lots of suppliers are reformulating on the fly, partially substituting Grp III & boosting the AO to compensate.
I read between the lines....
Sounds like a good excuse for Exxon Mobile to change their formulation to a primary group III stock, whether they admit it or not.
Quote:
"Probably 95% of the cars & light trucks on the road will see no difference in engine life between a synthetic & a good quality mineral. Lots of high-end cars are specifying synthetics, but that has more to do with their desire to present a certain cachet to the market rather than the actual lubrication requirements of the engine in question."
and another statement to "backup" that decision for the change.
PAO is very short in the whole industry, still. Lots of suppliers are reformulating on the fly, partially substituting Grp III & boosting the AO to compensate.
I read between the lines....
Sounds like a good excuse for Exxon Mobile to change their formulation to a primary group III stock, whether they admit it or not.
Quote:
"Probably 95% of the cars & light trucks on the road will see no difference in engine life between a synthetic & a good quality mineral. Lots of high-end cars are specifying synthetics, but that has more to do with their desire to present a certain cachet to the market rather than the actual lubrication requirements of the engine in question."
and another statement to "backup" that decision for the change.
Quote:
they've never run many of the tests they quote
Not being defensive - just trying to keep it factual. So basically this guy peppers this whole statement with "presumably" and "probably" and a "maybe" and the usual web type rambling speculation, but this seems like a pretty strong statement. Does he have any proof?
I didn't think so.
they've never run many of the tests they quote
Not being defensive - just trying to keep it factual. So basically this guy peppers this whole statement with "presumably" and "probably" and a "maybe" and the usual web type rambling speculation, but this seems like a pretty strong statement. Does he have any proof?
I didn't think so.
Originally Posted By: finalyzd
What if I ran dino in a 2009 bmw??
Im not sure I would bet money that a 2009 BMW serviced with 5W30 BMW Synthetic every 15,000 miles would last longer than it would with Rotella T 10W30 Conventional every 7,500 miles.
What if I ran dino in a 2009 bmw??
Im not sure I would bet money that a 2009 BMW serviced with 5W30 BMW Synthetic every 15,000 miles would last longer than it would with Rotella T 10W30 Conventional every 7,500 miles.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
OK Pablo, link away to the tests that they have run to prove that they meet and exceed.
they being the generic third party blenders, and not specific.
Just go to the Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, NEO, etc websites. I know for a fact Amsoil runs the tests they say they run. BUT he's the one making the statement, why should I prove or disprove it? He makes a strong statement, prove it.
OK Pablo, link away to the tests that they have run to prove that they meet and exceed.
they being the generic third party blenders, and not specific.
Just go to the Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, NEO, etc websites. I know for a fact Amsoil runs the tests they say they run. BUT he's the one making the statement, why should I prove or disprove it? He makes a strong statement, prove it.
Pulling your chain here, but what about the trans fluid where they said they can't test it, but using modern scientific methods can make a fluid that equally, and better as good.
They are claiming to meet a standard, though not applying the test.
They are claiming to meet a standard, though not applying the test.
Some interesting stuff. A few things to consider though.
Amsoil has a reputation going back decades much like Mobil, but even if there was formulation retro-engineering going on it might have been initially.
Take for example, Cyrix and AMD who at one point were using reverse engineered processors to mimic Intel capabilities, then they licensed their tech and finally innovated on their own. They are no longer considered "clone" processors. Whats past is past, we look to the present and future.
Mobil, which I have no issues with as I have been a long time user and enjoy their products is at a point where being a major supplier and distributor results in big overhead and control issues. They spoke about Katrina etc, and someone above mentioned that Amsoil didn't have the same problems Mobil did.
Well is Amsoil as "big" as Mobil? Does Amsoil have its own refineries? I don't believe they do, they purchase their base and add packs from third parties and are a blender of sorts. I am by no means attacking Amsoil either, because they are one of the premier EDI oil's. Back in 2000 when looking for a stout oil, Amsoil was one I was considering but its availability is its downfall in terms of sales. If Amsoil would be more available in a variety of retail outlets while still incorporating the sales aspect of it, their potential sales would sky rocket.
Back on target, o being a blender, you can pretty much grab your base stocks from anyone. Mobil being a provider, has to provide to its customers, consumers and whatever else they are contractually obligated to fulfill. A hit to a facility is a hit to supply.
Now as far as changing oil formulation on Mobil's part its another discussion entirely, one I can't touch on as I am not Mobil. But the other parts are able to be dissected but its opinion in the end.
Amsoil has a reputation going back decades much like Mobil, but even if there was formulation retro-engineering going on it might have been initially.
Take for example, Cyrix and AMD who at one point were using reverse engineered processors to mimic Intel capabilities, then they licensed their tech and finally innovated on their own. They are no longer considered "clone" processors. Whats past is past, we look to the present and future.
Mobil, which I have no issues with as I have been a long time user and enjoy their products is at a point where being a major supplier and distributor results in big overhead and control issues. They spoke about Katrina etc, and someone above mentioned that Amsoil didn't have the same problems Mobil did.
Well is Amsoil as "big" as Mobil? Does Amsoil have its own refineries? I don't believe they do, they purchase their base and add packs from third parties and are a blender of sorts. I am by no means attacking Amsoil either, because they are one of the premier EDI oil's. Back in 2000 when looking for a stout oil, Amsoil was one I was considering but its availability is its downfall in terms of sales. If Amsoil would be more available in a variety of retail outlets while still incorporating the sales aspect of it, their potential sales would sky rocket.
Back on target, o being a blender, you can pretty much grab your base stocks from anyone. Mobil being a provider, has to provide to its customers, consumers and whatever else they are contractually obligated to fulfill. A hit to a facility is a hit to supply.
Now as far as changing oil formulation on Mobil's part its another discussion entirely, one I can't touch on as I am not Mobil. But the other parts are able to be dissected but its opinion in the end.
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Thanks r_r, who had them first? US or Germans? I'm wondering thats all.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: finalyzd
I know there is some truth to that statement. Dino vs synthetic. But how much. Bmw, mercedes requiring synthetic has to be a reason why they do that. What if I ran dino in a 2009 bmw??
It's a matter of how far you want to push it. If you ran dino for 3-5K miles in it, it would probably do OK. But BMW recommends OCIs which can be upwards of 15K miles.
I concur without a doubt.
Originally Posted By: finalyzd
I know there is some truth to that statement. Dino vs synthetic. But how much. Bmw, mercedes requiring synthetic has to be a reason why they do that. What if I ran dino in a 2009 bmw??
It's a matter of how far you want to push it. If you ran dino for 3-5K miles in it, it would probably do OK. But BMW recommends OCIs which can be upwards of 15K miles.
I concur without a doubt.
Conventional wisdom says the Germans were as the allies were greatly disrupting their oil supply with the bombing that was going on.
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Quote:
A hit to a facility is a hit to supply.
Now as far as changing oil formulation on Mobil's part its another discussion entirely,
He brought it up. The FUNDAMENTAL formulation change WAS 100% due to Katrina (they released a document "quietly" and well worded informing consumers) ...so why would that be another discussion entirely? It's integrated in one form or another into every word he wrote. Amsoil was a tolerated shirttail royal provincial cousin before then, now it is an anachronism ...clinging to the "old ways".
In BITOG evolutions, it marked the onset of the term "It's only the performance of the final package that counts" in our catalog of routine rhetorical responses.
Before the event, Castrol had the distinction of being the poser (not misspelled) boy cheater for robbing M1 of its "synthetic" throne due to slight of hand Madison Ave-esque engineering.
Keep in mind that if I was a PR spin doctor weasel charged with this sorta task, I'd be doing the same thing. I'd also be subject to the same critical dissection for those seeing it for what it was.
Quote:
A hit to a facility is a hit to supply.
Now as far as changing oil formulation on Mobil's part its another discussion entirely,
He brought it up. The FUNDAMENTAL formulation change WAS 100% due to Katrina (they released a document "quietly" and well worded informing consumers) ...so why would that be another discussion entirely? It's integrated in one form or another into every word he wrote. Amsoil was a tolerated shirttail royal provincial cousin before then, now it is an anachronism ...clinging to the "old ways".
In BITOG evolutions, it marked the onset of the term "It's only the performance of the final package that counts" in our catalog of routine rhetorical responses.
Before the event, Castrol had the distinction of being the poser (not misspelled) boy cheater for robbing M1 of its "synthetic" throne due to slight of hand Madison Ave-esque engineering.
Keep in mind that if I was a PR spin doctor weasel charged with this sorta task, I'd be doing the same thing. I'd also be subject to the same critical dissection for those seeing it for what it was.
Quote:
"Since most Amsoil engine oil formulations tend to look like reverse engineered versions of older Mobil 1 formulations, are we to believe that ExxonMobil has been spending its enormous resources to produce lower quality iterations of their premier product?"
When your "technology" is based on reverse-engineering the formulations of the real innovators, you're going to lag by definition. While ExxonMobil and BP are working on the next iterations of Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec, Amsoil is working on the last version of Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec."
I thought Amsoil is a blender and Lubrizol supplies their ad packs. Why does this guy suggest Amsoil is reverse engineering old M1 formulations?? I doubt blenders have the ability, staff, equipment, etc to reverse engineer formulations. Since its ad pack suppliers like Lubrizol or Infineum that do the real work.
"Since most Amsoil engine oil formulations tend to look like reverse engineered versions of older Mobil 1 formulations, are we to believe that ExxonMobil has been spending its enormous resources to produce lower quality iterations of their premier product?"
When your "technology" is based on reverse-engineering the formulations of the real innovators, you're going to lag by definition. While ExxonMobil and BP are working on the next iterations of Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec, Amsoil is working on the last version of Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec."
I thought Amsoil is a blender and Lubrizol supplies their ad packs. Why does this guy suggest Amsoil is reverse engineering old M1 formulations?? I doubt blenders have the ability, staff, equipment, etc to reverse engineer formulations. Since its ad pack suppliers like Lubrizol or Infineum that do the real work.
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I wouldn't over analyze it. The gist of what he is saying is that the real innovators are the additive companies and base oil producers, not the blenders. There is some truth to that but Amsoil does have a good list of "Firsts".
Reverse engineering probably takes place all the time in this industry. Amsoil clearly reverse engineered the Castrol fluid. You're also talking about two companies that have been doing this for over 30 years.
Prior to GF-4, Amsoil was using the cheaper Mg.ASL/ATM today look identical to Mobil 1 from a few years ago. Different base oil blends I'm sure.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/amsoil.html
Amsoil is essentially a beefed up M1. I don't mean they copied M1, but their general formulating philosophy is most similar to Mobil being they are using their PAO base oils with an additive package from LZ or Infineum.
I highly doubt Amsoil, being such a small company, was able to be "cutting edge" throughout their "entire" history. They rely on the industry to come up with better additives/base oils work closely with the additive suppliers.
Btw, Hatco helped develop the first Amsoil API motor oil.
Notice what he said about PAO's is how Shell feels. Solvency is a draw back to PAO's.
I really agree with this:
Quote:
Any supplier touting one specific additive might very well be using that as sleight of hand to distract you from thinking about the rest of a fairly pedestrian formulation.
The same goes for touting one property. "We have 8 ZILLION times better wear protection than Brand X (and those deposits all over the place, uh, they give you extra rust protection, yeah, that's the ticket.)"
Think of a lube formulation as a partly filled balloon. If you squeeze it one place, it's going to bulge out somewhere else. You can also think of an additive like a drug, it's got beneficial properties and side effects. If you push too hard on one property, it's going to hurt you somewhere else. Better suppliers will try to give you a comprehensive formulation that gives the best possible overall performance the current technology can provide."
Reverse engineering probably takes place all the time in this industry. Amsoil clearly reverse engineered the Castrol fluid. You're also talking about two companies that have been doing this for over 30 years.
Prior to GF-4, Amsoil was using the cheaper Mg.ASL/ATM today look identical to Mobil 1 from a few years ago. Different base oil blends I'm sure.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/amsoil.html
Amsoil is essentially a beefed up M1. I don't mean they copied M1, but their general formulating philosophy is most similar to Mobil being they are using their PAO base oils with an additive package from LZ or Infineum.
I highly doubt Amsoil, being such a small company, was able to be "cutting edge" throughout their "entire" history. They rely on the industry to come up with better additives/base oils work closely with the additive suppliers.
Btw, Hatco helped develop the first Amsoil API motor oil.
Notice what he said about PAO's is how Shell feels. Solvency is a draw back to PAO's.
I really agree with this:
Quote:
Any supplier touting one specific additive might very well be using that as sleight of hand to distract you from thinking about the rest of a fairly pedestrian formulation.
The same goes for touting one property. "We have 8 ZILLION times better wear protection than Brand X (and those deposits all over the place, uh, they give you extra rust protection, yeah, that's the ticket.)"
Think of a lube formulation as a partly filled balloon. If you squeeze it one place, it's going to bulge out somewhere else. You can also think of an additive like a drug, it's got beneficial properties and side effects. If you push too hard on one property, it's going to hurt you somewhere else. Better suppliers will try to give you a comprehensive formulation that gives the best possible overall performance the current technology can provide."
Other than if this was true and you might suffer $$$ wise is there any proof that this is not true????
Originally Posted By: Pablo
This is like the 10th time I've read this. Not sure why you fell for buster's line and posted it.
It's a load of malarkey.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
This is like the 10th time I've read this. Not sure why you fell for buster's line and posted it.
It's a load of malarkey.
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