Mobil 1 vs Syntec - TEOST testing

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Mobil paid for an independent lab (likely, SW research) to run the industry standard deposit evaluating TEOST tests to compare M1 to it's #2 competitor in the world. Mobil 1 scored 5.3, #2 Competitor (Syntec) scored 26.4.

Also, Mobil tested Clean 7500 vs the #1 Syn Blend in the world (Syntec Blend). With it's 27% detergent additive boost vs it's base GF-4 requirement "Mobil Clean" bulk oil (formerly Drive Clean at retail), Clean 7500 scored 14.6 (yes, almost 1/2 the deposits of Castrol's best full syn Syntec), Syntec Blend scored 39.8.


Thought I'd make this more visible. Subject comes up often.

This type of testing isn't something a UOA will pick up. I also think applies to turbo applications.
 
LOL.gif


Most of us won't experience such severe test conditions in our everyday driving, by it's an industry standard test to compare apples to apples fwiw.


http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/D6335.htm?E+mystore

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The need for a bench test simulating high temperature (~250° to 300°C) deposits in the piston ring belt area lead to modifications of the TEOST® instrument. Work was initiated because of concerns that ring belt and piston undercrown temperatures of 250°C and higher in modern high performance engines may cause a significant increase in carbonaceous deposits in these areas.
 
I can see this being an issue in applications involving turbos and/or lots of fuel dilution. Other than that, it doesn't really say much IMO.

Pretty striking either way, though.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can see this being an issue in applications involving turbos and/or lots of fuel dilution. Other than that, it doesn't really say much IMO.

Pretty striking either way, though.


Agree. It's just one test, one that you dont often see #'s for and UOA's don't pick up this type of problem.

I would expect PP/Amsoil/RL/Schaeffer's to be good performers as well. Pennzoil used to have a really good website for Platinum when it first came out touting it's great deposit prevention. It's also probably why that oil is the only other listed to meet the Honda HTO-06 test.
 
This topic is brought up frequently, however, the source of the quoted results seems elusive. What is the source for the TEOST results quoted above and where can they be found?
 
Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
This topic is brought up frequently, however, the source of the quoted results seems elusive. What is the source for the TEOST results quoted above and where can they be found?


I'm told the data came from XOM and was provided to XOM distributors. I wouldn't have posted it if I thought it was "iffy", however, I can't produce any official documentation. I personally trust the source. Whether others do is up to them.
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Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
Thanks for clarifying what you believe to be the source.


No problem.
 
I tend to discount these sorts of results for several reasons. Not that I don't believe that they're true and accurate, mind you - I just discount their importance somewhat. Here's why:

- Most manufacturers seem to come up with tests in which their oil performs the best. They might all be picking different tests, and it stands to reason that any oil is a compromise, in terms of chemistry, not only between different desirable base oil properties and different desirable additive properties but also in terms of cost and in terms of what manufacturer and industry standards will need to be met. It stands to reason that different oils would have different performance characteristics and therefore not only different strengths but also different weaknesses. Surely the manufacturers are not showing you the tests in which their weaknesses are apparent!

- An oil can have legitimately extraordinary properties, but if those properties exceed what is required in a given application then they may not be important. In fact a given oil might wind up with a bunch of extraordinary unimportant properties while having mediocre important properties and therefore fail to be an excellent all-around oil. I think sometimes we see that to a degree in UOAs where some boutique and high-end oils are frequently outperformed in service by very ordinary oils. My tendency is to think that often the best performing oils might not have the most extreme laboratory test results but instead find a superb overall balance mainly by getting the basics absolutely right. Oils like Delo, Havoline, Maxlife, PP and some others seem to consistently perform in a superior way even compared to some of the most intensively engineered (and intensively hyped) "high-performance" oils, and personally I would include many Mobil oils in the latter category.

- We have the best bottom-line "test" of oil right here at BITOG, by which I'm referring to the vast UOA database. To whatever degree a particular test might tell you something about the oil being tested, it all eventually feeds into the oil's actual performance in use, and that in-use performance trumps the importance of any one specific test or even all specific tests put together. I know some will say that UOAs (especially cheap UOAs) only give you an INDICATION of wear and not the whole story, but to me that is an apologist's argument and I don't really buy it. If an oil gives consistently excellent results, across a wide range of operating conditions, winter and summer, short trips and long, in a variety of engines, that is the most important piece of data pro or con for the oil's effectiveness, and laboratory-tested properties shrink towards irrelevance by comparison.

I suppose that if you have a truly unusual or extreme set of operating conditions, then you could have a thread by which to argue for particular qualities in an oil - extreme HTHS capabilities, or high-temperature stability, or whatnot - and yet it seems to me that even in those extreme (for street, at least) cases the same oils tend to consistently come out on top.

Take this for what it's worth - I'm not trying to put down the many excellent high end oils. I'm only providing what seems to me a relevant counter-argument to the proposition that spending more money (usually) for an oil because of its presumably superior laboratory qualities (or often its superior marketing qualities) is the best way to ensure protection and performance.
 
Originally Posted By: glennc
To whatever degree a particular test might tell you something about the oil being tested, it all eventually feeds into the oil's actual performance in use, and that in-use performance trumps the importance of any one specific test or even all specific tests put together. I know some will say that UOAs (especially cheap UOAs) only give you an INDICATION of wear and not the whole story, but to me that is an apologist's argument and I don't really buy it. If an oil gives consistently excellent results, across a wide range of operating conditions, winter and summer, short trips and long, in a variety of engines, that is the most important piece of data pro or con for the oil's effectiveness, and laboratory-tested properties shrink towards irrelevance by comparison.

Agreed.

The best this kind of narrow testing can do is to provide evidence for a rough prediction of performance and/or suitability for a specific task, relative to the other products tested.
 
glenn, great points. I agree with you.

We constantly hear how sludge and deposit formation is getting to be more and more of an issue. With emissions being thrown into the oil and more performance being squeezed out of smaller engines, it only makes sense that sludge/deposit prevention is a top priority. .02
 
Btw, M1 EP scored a 3.9, slightly better than reg. M1. Longer drain intervals.
 
Originally Posted By: glennc
If an oil gives consistently excellent results, across a wide range of operating conditions, winter and summer, short trips and long, in a variety of engines, that is the most important piece of data pro or con for the oil's effectiveness, and laboratory-tested properties shrink towards irrelevance by comparison.


I like the way that was stated. I've read here before some folks' opinions that certain "boutique" oils seem to be formulated with VOAs in mind -- that is, oil geeks like some of us choosing an oil based upon its "laboratory properties" as you put it, and putting its actual field performance somewhat lower on the decision tree.

I have to admit I like to look at the VOAs and see what's in there -- and it's tempting to choose an oil based on what it looks like new. But as you say, it should be most important to choose an oil based on what it looks like 5,000-10,000 miles down the road.
 
A UOA though won't detect deposit/sludge. At least a $20 UOA won't. So this test does have some value.

I'm not trying to deflate the value of oil analysis. It's also naive to think that $20 UOA's are the ultimate test/benchmark also. If it were only that simple....
 
This test, along with others, is used by oil formulators during oil development. It provides very helpful information in a relatively fast and inexpensive bench-test. The engine tests are the final tests that are done. It's best to have the formulation narrowed down rather well before the engine tests are started.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
This test, along with others, is used by oil formulators during oil development. It provides very helpful information in a relatively fast and inexpensive bench-test. The engine tests are the final tests that are done. It's best to have the formulation narrowed down rather well before the engine tests are started.


Of course, yes, lab tests are critical in development. No argument with that.
 
""Other than that, it doesn't really say much""'

It shows a well balanced oil.

This test shows ALL additives are "in sync" a thrown together oil or one "off the shelf" will show worse BUT even the Bad oil here the syntec is a good oil (passes SM or whatever) and has with real world results. Just shows that some tests "split hairs" and mean not much but IMHO oxidation tests are the ones I hang my hat on they are the meaty ones.
bruce
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bruce381
""Other than that, it doesn't really say much""'

It shows a well balanced oil.

This test shows ALL additives are "in sync" a thrown together oil or one "off the shelf" will show worse BUT even the Bad oil here the syntec is a good oil (passes SM or whatever) and has with real world results. Just shows that some tests "split hairs" and mean not much but IMHO oxidation tests are the ones I hang my hat on they are the meaty ones.
bruce


+1

This is an old thread, but this is also why I never liked Castrol products. Their oils were never that good for the $ compared to the equivalent Mobil products.

Dough Hillary, I believe, also said Castrol products had some issues with deposit control a few years back. Makes you wonder...
 
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