Mobil 1 0W-16

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: nap
it's no wonder that most of what you're reading looks like nonsense to you.

It's nonsense when someone claims that if you run anything less than a 10W-40 (min HTHSV = 3.5 cP), your bearings will fail immediately, despite no car in US has been recommending xW-40 since the 1980s and yet, bearing failures are very rare. You came up with it because you saw the abstract of a 1977 paper, where they studied a 1970s vehicle with the oil temperature running at 170 C on 1970s Group I oils with low viscosity indexes.

You then doubled down by claiming that the sludge was caused by thin oils because the API motor-oil guide mentions sludge in the category summaries.
 
It's remarkable that Mobil 1 0W-16 and Mobil Super 0W-16 are all PAO and all GTL, respectively!

This is telling us that the manufactures are resorting to the highest-quality base stocks when they formulate 0W-16. They want to ensure the highest viscosity index possible so that, at elevated temperatures, the oil doesn't thin to a level where the oil film breaks down.

0W-16 has mostly arose because of Japanese OEM's, for whom the MPG is the biggest selling point, and CAFE has little to blame.

Oil-induced failures, if they happen, usually happen catastrophically. If an OEM is recommending a certain viscosity, it means that they've done every testing on it and it has passed. Therefore, you rest easy. If you do racing or towing, simply use an oil with a higher viscosity and a better base oil (PAO or GTL); otherwise, the recommended viscosity and oil type is fine.

Also, don't forget that the viscosity alone doesn't summarize an oil's capabilities. Viscosity index of the base oil is very important, as well as the viscosity index of the overall oil. Resistance of the base oil to oxidation is very important as well, especially in longer OCI's. On top of that, the additive package plays a crucial role.
 
I'm going to try 0W-16 for sure in my car.
Gonna quieten those creaky door hinges
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's remarkable that Mobil 1 0W-16 and Mobil Super 0W-16 are all PAO and all GTL, respectively!

This is telling us that the manufactures are resorting to the highest-quality base stocks when they formulate 0W-16. They want to ensure the highest viscosity index possible so that, at elevated temperatures, the oil doesn't thin to a level where the oil film breaks down.

0W-16 has mostly arose because of Japanese OEM's, for whom the MPG is the biggest selling point, and CAFE has little to blame.

Oil-induced failures, if they happen, usually happen catastrophically. If an OEM is recommending a certain viscosity, it means that they've done every testing on it and it has passed. Therefore, you rest easy. If you do racing or towing, simply use an oil with a higher viscosity and a better base oil (PAO or GTL); otherwise, the recommended viscosity and oil type is fine.

Also, don't forget that the viscosity alone doesn't summarize an oil's capabilities. Viscosity index of the base oil is very important, as well as the viscosity index of the overall oil. Resistance of the base oil to oxidation is very important as well, especially in longer OCI's. On top of that, the additive package plays a crucial role.


+1
 
Originally Posted By: raburn2906



Saw this at Pep Boy's today.


Judging by the picture on the bottle, 0w16 makes metal things split in half!
 
According to the MSDS, Castrol Edge 0W-16 has a Group III base oil. So, it's currently in the third place after the first-place holder Mobil 1 with its PAO base oil and the second-place holder Mobil Super with its GTL base oil. So much with its "stronger under pressure" claim.
 
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The title of the thread is Mobil 1 0w16.………

Which nobody has used yet in real world.

0w16 has been used for the past decade in Japan. There were comments from both Honda and Toyota engineers in an earlier thread on this topic. It's also the factory fill in the 2018 Camry here in the US. Does any of that qualify as "real world?"
 
^^^ He is correct though, he's not saying nobody has used the viscosity 0w16 in the real world yet, he's saying nobody has used Mobil 1 0w16 yet because it hasn't been released yet.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: nap
it's no wonder that most of what you're reading looks like nonsense to you.

It's nonsense when someone claims that if you run anything less than a 10W-40 (min HTHSV = 3.5 cP), your bearings will fail immediately,


Can you quote any forum member making this claim in this thread?

Or is this yet another strawman of yours?

Or you just didn't get it? Let me summarize the thread for you:

- Mobil 0W16 is coming!
- The sky will fall!
- It didn't fall when 5W30 was introduced!
- Didn't exactly fall but it was sludged quite badly!
- History tells us that one shouldn't be 100% optimistic when a new "green" something is introduced, let's wait a couple of years before we could decide about how this 0W16 works in the Camry that specifies it
 
Originally Posted By: Patman
^^^ He is correct though, he's not saying nobody has used the viscosity 0w16 in the real world yet, he's saying nobody has used Mobil 1 0w16 yet because it hasn't been released yet.


Thank you Patman, it's refreshing to see that some forum members pay attention to the exact meaning of what other members have been writing (as opposed to quickly deforming the meaning and / or creating a strawman out of it)
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Patman
^^^ He is correct though, he's not saying nobody has used the viscosity 0w16 in the real world yet, he's saying nobody has used Mobil 1 0w16 yet because it hasn't been released yet.

I would hope that a product due to be released in October, three months from now, has already seen some real world testing.
 
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
... I don't see what's to complain if someone design the engine to work with it from the ground up, and it has been proven in Japan for a few years.
Probably true. The protests seem to come from people who cannot grasp that such engines lubricated by 0W-16 may be at no greater risk losing full hydrodynamic lubrication than Grandpa's V-8 was on 10W-40.


Apparently the oil manufacturers agree with "the people who cannot grasp"....

Exhibit A:

Page 8 of http://www.ravenol.de/fileadmin/content/documents/pdfs/Ravenol_EFE_SAE_0W-16__en.pdf

where Ravenol plots various oils on the Stribeck curve. One may note that, according to the chart, 0W30 is the absolute minimum to stay in hydrodynamic mode, with 0W20 slightly going into boundary mode (and thus calling for some EP additives in order to work nicely), and 0W16 going even further.

Exhibit B:

Page 2 of http://www.eneos.us/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/0W-16-Brochure.pdf

where Eneos also confirms that a 0W16 w/o additives would work in boundary mode, and that it's relying on EP additives in order to work nicely.


As mentioned before, if all else equal 0w16 has weaker film strength and would go into boundary mode more often. IF ALL ELSE EQUAL.

As mentioned before, variable displacement oil pump is needed for cars that recommend 0w16, or cars with them recommend 0w16. Of course if you compare it to 0w20 it is still not as good, but do you really need it if variable displacement pump protects you enough to not worry about going into boundary mode?

Putting 0w16 in a car asking for Xw20 is stupid, of course. Recommending 5w30 instead of 0w16 is wrong also, unless it is tested and listed as ok by manufacturers. I'd be worried about compatibility with oil pressure driven components like those variable valve lift / phase parts.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: raburn2906



Saw this at Pep Boy's today.


Judging by the picture on the bottle, 0w16 makes metal things split in half!



Possibly, but on the positive side... it also makes a cool, purple, aquamarine color while doing so! Does your 0W-40, 10w30, or 10W-40 do that?
cool.gif
 
Variable displacement oil pumps are used to reduce parasitic pumping losses, not reduce severity of mixed and boundary lubrication. An additional effect they can cause is increased combustion chamber temperatures due to reduced oil flow rates, when it’s programmed to do so, further increasing fuel economy.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Variable displacement oil pumps are used to reduce parasitic pumping losses, not reduce severity of mixed and boundary lubrication. An additional effect they can cause is increased combustion chamber temperatures due to reduced oil flow rates, when it’s programmed to do so, further increasing fuel economy.


What I was trying to say, maybe I didn't word it correctly, is that the engine is designed to use these low visc oil (maybe bearing size is increased), and variable displacement oil pump makes it affordable (in terms of fuel economy) to go with that route, and not have to worry about high rpm lost.

Fixed displacement may not be able to do it efficiently, and as a result they use a thicker oil and smaller bearings instead.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: JAG
Variable displacement oil pumps are used to reduce parasitic pumping losses, not reduce severity of mixed and boundary lubrication. An additional effect they can cause is increased combustion chamber temperatures due to reduced oil flow rates, when it’s programmed to do so, further increasing fuel economy.

What I was trying to say, maybe I didn't word it correctly, is that the engine is designed to use these low visc oil (maybe bearing size is increased), and variable displacement oil pump makes it affordable (in terms of fuel economy) to go with that route, and not have to worry about high rpm lost.

Fixed displacement may not be able to do it efficiently, and as a result they use a thicker oil and smaller bearings instead.

It has definitely got nothing to do with the oil pump. As you said, the variable oil pump is to reduce the MPG loss at the pump and it doesn't improve the lubrication; in fact, it works against the lubrication somewhat by reducing the oil flow, which could increase the oil temperature among other things.

It's also not the bearing sizes and clearances. Bearing sizes and clearances haven't changed in several decades despite the oils getting thinner and engines getting more powerful. In fact, the new Toyota engine puts more pressure on the bearings (increased stroke), not less, employing high-strength connecting rods. The power density is significantly higher than in the previous engine. Increasing the sizes of the bearings defeats the purpose of lowering the oil viscosity to improve the fuel economy, as larger bearings mean more friction.

These engines can tolerate thinner oils not because of radically different bearing designs but because of better machining that reduces tolerances and variations within the bearing and between bearings, as these tolerances and variations are the main culprit in bearing wear, cleaner running engines that reduce the particulates in the oils (despite the direct injection), new high-strength, low-friction bearing-liner materials such as resin (link), and better oils that don't thin at extreme temperatures or loads (made of such as PAO and GTL base oils).

The new Toyota A25A engine explained
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: JAG
Variable displacement oil pumps are used to reduce parasitic pumping losses, not reduce severity of mixed and boundary lubrication. An additional effect they can cause is increased combustion chamber temperatures due to reduced oil flow rates, when it’s programmed to do so, further increasing fuel economy.

What I was trying to say, maybe I didn't word it correctly, is that the engine is designed to use these low visc oil (maybe bearing size is increased), and variable displacement oil pump makes it affordable (in terms of fuel economy) to go with that route, and not have to worry about high rpm lost.

Fixed displacement may not be able to do it efficiently, and as a result they use a thicker oil and smaller bearings instead.

It has definitely got nothing to do with the oil pump. As you said, the variable oil pump is to reduce the MPG loss at the pump and it doesn't improve the lubrication; in fact, it works against the lubrication somewhat by reducing the oil flow, which could increase the oil temperature among other things.

It's also not the bearing sizes and clearances. Bearing sizes and clearances haven't changed in several decades despite the oils getting thinner and engines getting more powerful. In fact, the new Toyota engine puts more pressure on the bearings (increased stroke), not less, employing high-strength connecting rods. The power density is significantly higher than in the previous engine. Increasing the sizes of the bearings defeats the purpose of lowering the oil viscosity to improve the fuel economy, as larger bearings mean more friction.

These engines can tolerate thinner oils not because of radically different bearing designs but because of better machining that reduces tolerances and variations within the bearing and between bearings, as these tolerances and variations are the main culprit in bearing wear, cleaner running engines that reduce the particulates in the oils (despite the direct injection), new high-strength, low-friction bearing-liner materials such as resin (link), and better oils that don't thin at extreme temperatures or loads (made of such as PAO and GTL base oils).

The new Toyota A25A engine explained


And a pump is a still a pump … on my new 5.3L GM added piston oil jets, came up to 8 quarts, and has an oil cooler … some of several changes to the engine … not just the new style pumps …
Knowing that … 0w20 does not bother me (much) …
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
These engines can tolerate thinner oils not because of radically different bearing designs but because of better machining that reduces tolerances and variations within the bearing and between bearings, as these tolerances and variations are the main culprit in bearing wear, cleaner running engines that reduce the particulates in the oils (despite the direct injection), new high-strength, low-friction bearing-liner materials such as resin (link), and better oils that don't thin at extreme temperatures or loads (made of such as PAO and GTL base oils).

The new Toyota A25A engine explained


Umm, no, you don't understand bearings....nor variances and tolerances, as tolerance is the allowable variation, not a separate line item.

Have discussed bearing design, and current trends before, and will do so again if there's enough interest in "clearances", "tolerances", bearing design parameters (l,d,c, e), block and cranks stiffness, MOFT, and what Honda (the initial pusher of the sub 20 grade) are doing in their papers...papers as opposed to advertorials.
 
Where did I say variation and tolerance are separate things? I guess you count it as having explained how thin oil works in the bearing by nitpicking and cherry-picking my wording -- and providing zero explanation on your own.

No, we don't want a copy and paste lecture on bearings here. It's a simple question. You either know the answer or you don't.
 
variations and tolerances are not "the main culprit in bearing wear"...your inference, in using both words...variations AND tolerances inferred that you were defining them separately, and both of them being (incorrectly) the main culprit.


If you said clearances and tolerences, you would be defining two different things...but they are neither the main culprits in bearing wear either.

Bearings have a characteristic number (Sommerfeld) number (r/c)^2*u*N/P, where

r is the radius
C is the radial clearance
u is KV
N Rotational Speed
P is applied pressure to the bearing = Load/(length* diameter)

(take out the (r/c)^2 as a constant for a given design, and you get the number used on the Stribeck curve...funny that...and notice that the stribeck curve, nor the Sommerfeld mention "variations and tolerances").



These are for perfect bearings in proper alignment, with no shaft flex etc...

So MOFT, and the lack thereof are "the main culprit in bearing wear in real life, in this current universe, witht he laws of physics as they currently stand...in a made up universe, YMMV, but that's not here.

So if you want to increase MOFT - increase the So number.
* increase engine speed
* increase viscosity
* increase shaft diameter
* reduce radial clearances
* REDUCE P (+)

(+) You can reduce P by
* increasing shaft diameter (already included above)
* reducing the load on the bearing (no likely)
* increasing length.

The Japanese OEMs are using lower viscosity, by their own admission to reduce operating friction, for the purposes of fuel economy and/or CO2 emissions. And they are trying to do that while maintaining (to quote Honda) "acceptable wear".

So that pushes things to the left on both the So, and the Stribeck (based on So for journals)...oh, and BTW, the polymers aren't any "higher strength" than the substrates, they are softer, more embeddable, and less prone to stop start boundary lubrication...well that's what Mahle say, and Federal Mogul don't call them higher strength then the substrate either...they claim that they las longer in stop start and hybrid.

So to get better MOFT, the OEMS are (per Honda papers, not adverts)
* reducing radial clearances
* increasing shaft diameters
* increasing bearing length

Which flies in the face of efficiency, but they have more to gain in piston/skirt than they lose in bearings...there WILL be a cost benefit payoff there.

The changes that Honda are stating come with problems...longer length and lower clearances mean that shaft alignment needs to be better maintained.

Greater journal diameter helps improve the stiffness (and alignment) of the shaft.

Blocks have to be stiffer, which is why we are seeing skirted blocks, crank bearing girdles, cross bolting, and strong alloy sumps.


re "variations and tolerances" being the main culprit in bearing were...it's bunk.
Look at the MOFT curves I show...pick a design point, then go a little to the left, and a little to the right...the effect is virtually NIL in MOFT.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom