MMO thinning oil

[Trav]

Hey Frank,
You use it all the time and I'm not surprised there are no problems at three hundred plus to 1 ratio.
at just 20 MPG it translates to about a qt every 2K if the car gets 35 MPG its much less.
This is not going to bother the cat even with a 95% trigger.

The other thing to consider is its not like regular oil, it does not contain all the additives and detergents, its basically just petroleum distillates in the form of mineral spirits and a couple of other things so i would guess it burns cleaner anyway.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Hey Frank,
You use it all the time and I'm not surprised there are no problems at three hundred plus to 1 ratio.
at just 20 MPG it translates to about a qt every 2K if the car gets 35 MPG its much less.
This is not going to bother the cat even with a 95% trigger.

The other thing to consider is its not like regular oil, it does not contain all the additives and detergents, its basically just petroleum distillates in the form of mineral spirits and a couple of other things so i would guess it burns cleaner anyway.


Hey Paul-I know what you're saying, for it to ruin a CC at that dose I'd think there were other issues, like maybe a bad cat or the engine is using a lot of oil from mechanical problems. I don't know. Not to beat a dead horse, I've been using MMO for decades, in fact a lot longer than some of our members have been alive. I haven't lost a CC or an O2 sensor for that matter. Maybe these cars triggering a CEL are ultra sensitive.

Has any damage been done to any components referred to by the code triggered from the CEL?

You've been at this game for a long time too? Any cases of damaged sensors or CC's that you're aware of from the use of MMO at the recommended dose? If there are let me know because I'll stop using it, at every fill up.

 

[Trav]

No i have never seen or even heard of anything being damaged from using it.
I'm not a fan or hater of it in the fuel but i feel very confident it does no harm in that amount. It will free sticky lifters in the oil though so it just may provide a little extra lubrication for the injectors.

I see a lot more sticking injectors that ever before since ethanol came into the game, mostly marine injectors.
I cant knock or praise the product but next year may tell a different tale.
Some guys are using it now to prevent sticking issues on their marine injectors when they are idle all winter, next spring maybe informative.

 

[LeakySeals]

I agree demarpaint's dosage and mechanical state lend themselves to the safe use of MMO, but disagree the 1930's lubricant base oils in MMO and seafoam are safer for the cat than motor oil.

You have heard of somebody having problems after using MMO. Me.

I just recently helped somebody on here extinguish a P0430 that went off after using MMO. So thats 2. There a lots more out there, but people want to discredit it, say we had other problems, assign the problem to something else. But thats been my point. There is no blanket "its safe for all engines". It depends on the mechanical state of the engine, and I maintain that. Unfortunately thats when people use it, not like demarpaint as maintenance on a good running engine with no issues.

I'm a MMO fan, but never again in the gas. So now its up to people to make their own decisions. Not trying to argue here, just trying to make a point and let this rest now.

 

[Vikas]

The trouble with P0420/P0430 is that it is very difficult to attribute a single cause to it. In most cars, once the mileage has accumulated (i.e. 100K +/- miles), the 95% tripping point is now *very* close. A small change in *any* of the engine parameter can trip that code. Conversely, adding some PEA cleaner etc might get the code to trigger slowly. Unfortunately, without actually looking at the live data and comparing the front vs back O2 wave pattern during the deceleration, it is very difficult to claim that MMO causes P0420 or PEA fixes P0420.

Leaky, tell me about your experience with extinguishing P0430. Was stopping the MMO usage the *only* difference?

If it were that easy, I would be blaming Gumout Regan for turning on P0446 on my Camry and TC-W3 for P0401 on my Odyssey. Both the CELs tripped within 50-100 miles after adding the respective additives. But I know better

- Vikas

 

[Phishin]

In my Nissan Altima, I used to see HUGE increases in MPG's when I used Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant. These were 100% legit increases.

My car never got better than 26.5 mpg no matter where I went, how I drove, etc. 26.5 was the highest I ever got.

First time I added Lucas, it went to 30 mpg. No kidding. After the second tank full, the CEL came on. P0420.

Two questions:
1.) is the code going to shift my fuel tables around trying to compensate for this or is it just a code telling me that the cat isn't working efficiently?

2.) Can you usually fix this problem by cleaning the 02 sensors? Or is the cat usually plugged up?

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
The trouble with P0420/P0430 is that it is very difficult to attribute a single cause to it. In most cars, once the mileage has accumulated (i.e. 100K +/- miles), the 95% tripping point is now *very* close. A small change in *any* of the engine parameter can trip that code. Conversely, adding some PEA cleaner etc might get the code to trigger slowly. Unfortunately, without actually looking at the live data and comparing the front vs back O2 wave pattern during the deceleration, it is very difficult to claim that MMO causes P0420 or PEA fixes P0420.

Leaky, tell me about your experience with extinguishing P0430. Was stopping the MMO usage the *only* difference?

If it were that easy, I would be blaming Gumout Regan for turning on P0446 on my Camry and TC-W3 for P0401 on my Odyssey. Both the CELs tripped within 50-100 miles after adding the respective additives. But I know better

- Vikas

Ok, will try. Been using different cleaners for years like everyone else, never a problem. Varying doses, I never overdo anything. One day I put 1/2 pint of MMO in 18 gallon full tank and boom, a P0420 appeared 1/2 way through the tank. Normally a P0420/P0430 wavers in and out for a while. Not this one, the CEL was on hard. Was it the MMO or something else? I wasnt sure. To verify I took the manifold cat off, degreased it, sprayed off the media, put it back on. Light was off after a day. At the end of the next oil changed I added the same amount of MMO again to test. Towards the end of the tank the P0420 CEL was off again!

Coincidence? Sure, the cat was old, I burn oil, etc. But they don't set the CEL off. What I think is the combination of fouled media and MMO causes the problem, NOT MMO alone.

That was the best I could do to attribute the CEL to something. While the results can be disputed for the other variables given, the results cannot exclude MMO as a source of the problem. So..Unless your sure the cats clean, don't have any mechanical issues, dont use it in the gas.

Onto your comparisons with other fuel cleaners. I think it depends on ingredients. Sure, carbon is a threat, but its oil and lubricant that drowns the media, puts the cat furnace out losing its efficiency. So a fuel additive low in upper cylinder lube is a better option for a modern engine and catalyst IMO. I've brake boostered the same engine, same cat with techron concentrate, light didn't come on.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
In my Nissan Altima, I used to see HUGE increases in MPG's when I used Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant. These were 100% legit increases.

My car never got better than 26.5 mpg no matter where I went, how I drove, etc. 26.5 was the highest I ever got.

First time I added Lucas, it went to 30 mpg. No kidding. After the second tank full, the CEL came on. P0420.

Two questions:
1.) is the code going to shift my fuel tables around trying to compensate for this or is it just a code telling me that the cat isn't working efficiently?

2.) Can you usually fix this problem by cleaning the 02 sensors? Or is the cat usually plugged up?

if you've been reading my replies you know what I'm going to say...You've fouled your cat with upper cylinder lube. And the stuff does not burn off easily, if at all. Stop using it, go out on the highway and get the cat really hot a few times. Hopefully it will burn off. If not, you may need cat replacement or a rear o2 modification. Replacing the front a/f o2 sensor is a 1-10 chance it resolves it. Maybe your that 1.

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

if you've been reading my replies you know what I'm going to say...You've fouled your cat with upper cylinder lube. And the stuff does not burn off easily, if at all. Stop using it, go out on the highway and get the cat really hot a few times. Hopefully it will burn off. If not, you may need cat replacement or a rear o2 modification. Replacing the front a/f o2 sensor is a 1-10 chance it resolves it. Maybe your that 1.


I've stopped using it as soon as the CEL came on. It's been months and months since I've used that stuff. Kind of upset because it did increase MPG's.

Can I clean my CAT or do I need to just replace it? Or is it fine just not being efficient?

If the plugged CAT is causing my Nissan to shift around fuel tables, I want to fix it. What do you think?

You said you just degreaesd yours and it worked again. Is that possible to do?

What about just removing the CAT and tricking the O2 sensor? Is that possible?

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

if you've been reading my replies you know what I'm going to say...You've fouled your cat with upper cylinder lube. And the stuff does not burn off easily, if at all. Stop using it, go out on the highway and get the cat really hot a few times. Hopefully it will burn off. If not, you may need cat replacement or a rear o2 modification. Replacing the front a/f o2 sensor is a 1-10 chance it resolves it. Maybe your that 1.


I've stopped using it as soon as the CEL came on. It's been months and months since I've used that stuff. Kind of upset because it did increase MPG's.

Can I clean my CAT or do I need to just replace it? Or is it fine just not being efficient?

If the plugged CAT is causing my Nissan to shift around fuel tables, I want to fix it. What do you think?

You said you just degreaesd yours and it worked again. Is that possible to do?

What about just removing the CAT and tricking the O2 sensor? Is that possible?

If its passing emissions that cat is ok for now. Its simply below the catalyst efficiency threshold the manufacturer has set. You can clean them, decrease the catalyst efficiency threshold, try replacing the pre-cat o2 sensor or replace the cat. Do the first one if you can. Replacing the cat is the last option, because its the most expensive.

 

[Phishin]

We don't have emissions in Indiana. It just bugs me the CEL is on.

I've been ready about several people who have packed the after-cat O2 sensor with Red RTV and it "numbs" the sensor so it does't give high oxygen reading, but still allows it to function so it doesn't set off another code.

Anyone try this hillbilly method?

 

[LeakySeals]

Ask me over here, don't want to hijack fordranger03's topic.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2702764&page=1

 

[demarpaint]

Leaky, if I were in your shoes I'd do exactly what you did. In fact if I ever get that code MMO will be the first thing I stop. I'm not doubting what you've said.

One thing I do respectfully disagree about is this: Quote: "but disagree the 1930's lubricant base oils in MMO and seafoam are safer for the cat than motor oil." I think MMO burns cleaner and more efficiently than even today's finest SN oils. JMO

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I think MMO burns cleaner and more efficiently than even today's finest SN oils. JMO


You betcha, see how long you can go consistently adding Pennzoil conventional to your gas.

In my case, my aging Jeep suffered from intermittent 02 sensor codes, they come on, go off etc. Mpg was good, running great so I never bothered with them, but it's been off longer now than it ever has since I've owned it, about 5 months, and the last two months of that I've been running 6 oz per 10 gallons MMO. It sure doesn't seem to bother my vehicle anyway.

 

[demarpaint]

KC-That 6 ounce dose per 10 gallons of gas is a little steep. I've exceeded it at times though.

I think each engine has a sweet spot. Four cylinder engines being a bit more sensitive to the dose.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
KC-That 6 ounce dose per 10 gallons of gas is a little steep. I've exceeded it at times though.

I think each engine has a sweet spot. Four cylinder engines being a bit more sensitive to the dose.


Yeah, I know I'm "testing" it hah hah. It responded so positively to 4 per 10 gallons I was curious as to what 6 would do. Getting my highest mpg ever but I've also done the fuel filter, plugs and added MoS2 since I last checked mileage so I doubt the MMO is responsible, it does seem to run even better though and still quick starts, no CEL either.

I doubt I will stay at that doseage but tinkering is hard to resist.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
KC-That 6 ounce dose per 10 gallons of gas is a little steep. I've exceeded it at times though.

I think each engine has a sweet spot. Four cylinder engines being a bit more sensitive to the dose.


Yeah, I know I'm "testing" it hah hah. It responded so positively to 4 per 10 gallons I was curious as to what 6 would do. Getting my highest mpg ever but I've also done the fuel filter, plugs and added MoS2 since I last checked mileage so I doubt the MMO is responsible, it does seem to run even better though and still quick starts, no CEL either.

I doubt I will stay at that doseage but tinkering is hard to resist.


Experimenting is what BITOG is all about. Go for it and report back! Good luck! I've run some pretty hefty doses myself, a lot strong than that over the years.

 

[Phishin]

In my K1500 truck, I put 32 ounces in 20 gallons of gas. I've done it several times.

I do it about once every 3000 miles.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
In my Nissan Altima, I used to see HUGE increases in MPG's when I used Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant. These were 100% legit increases.

My car never got better than 26.5 mpg no matter where I went, how I drove, etc. 26.5 was the highest I ever got.

First time I added Lucas, it went to 30 mpg. No kidding. After the second tank full, the CEL came on. P0420.

Two questions:
1.) is the code going to shift my fuel tables around trying to compensate for this or is it just a code telling me that the cat isn't working efficiently?

2.) Can you usually fix this problem by cleaning the 02 sensors? Or is the cat usually plugged up?


Two comments - since we're way OT here anyway...

1. a single tank is not a statistically significant sample...i.e. you can't say that you had any change in MPG based on 1 tank fill-up variables such as weather, driving conditions, fill quantity, all invalidate one tank...5 or 6 tanks? OK, now you've got a sample.

2. in the simplest of terms, there is no good reason to see those kinds of increases by putting some stuff in your fuel. There is no more energy in the gasoline, it's being used by the same exact engine, with the same compression ratio, valve overlap and timing...there is the same drag, caused by tires, tire pressure, gearing, body shape, etc. that are all unchanged by the addition of some stuff in the fuel. So, how does the energy/drag equation change so dramatically? Did it change the way fuel is burned? The air/fuel ratio? This claimed improvement reminds me of the "magnets" that "align" the "fuel molecules" for "better combustion"...

 

[Phishin]

I was driving round trip from Angola, IN to Minneapolis, MN when I made this calculation. It was around 1200 mile trip. I added the Lucas product based on a conversation I had with someone. Figured this long trip would be worth trying. Every tank was over 29.8 and the average was closer to 31mpg. But the CEL came on about 100 miles into the trip. But I kept dosing it anyways for this trip.

For the prior 30,000 miles at that time, the car would register anywhere from 24-26.5 mpg based on calculations of at least 1000 miles. Usually 2-5k miles.

Sometimes I would "spot check" a tank of fuel, and it would have 21-22 mpg's if I only did short town driving the whole tank. But I'm not including that. Only longer term/multiple tank calculations.

NOTE: The upper cylinder lube does NOTHING in my old K1500 pick up. But a year later after the Minneapolis trip, I drove the Nissan to Atlanta, and used the lube again and found the same results. I've made several long trip without the upper lube, and never got better than 26.5 mpg.

Maybe certain engines are capable of improving mileage with this product, and some aren't. I don't know. Just an observation.