misfiring Honda Civic

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ouch, yeah, i think i'll take it back!
I ran the +4's in a chrysler (was it the shadow 2.5L or the 3.0 Eagle vision?) and they were horrible....
 
My wife and I donated our 1998 Civic EX to my nephew, but about 2 years ago the Civic was also acting up and throwing a CEL for the 02 sensor. I went to AutoZone and cleared the code and a few days later the CEL would reappear.
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I did this 4 times until I realized the Civic had a 2 inch hairline crack in the exhaust manifold.

As long as there was a crack, it was no use clearing the 02 sensor code. With a new exhaust manifold ($70) and a new Felpro gasket ($12)....and two hours in my garage, our poor running Civic ran like new.

Here are two not so great photos of the 2 inch crack.

BTW, these Civics are well known for developing manifold cracks.
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I hope this helps.
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shop around for manifold prices, I got one at rockauto.com
but it ended up being mislabled by the manufacturer, Dorman....it was for the DOHC. if it's not much more, i'd stick with www.partsamerica.com or autozone so you can return it.
 
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BTW, these Civics are well known for developing manifold cracks.
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Yep, that's the only major repair we've needed on my wife's 2000 Civic EX.

Her engine idles pretty roughly right now, so I'm going to change the fuel filter pretty soon. A lot of other maintenance items have been done in the past year or so (wires, plugs, cap & rotor, new o2 sensor)
 
Hopefully he got his distributor/cap properly fixed on his 2000 Civic , but if it was correctly fixed...

the next place I would look is the manifold. At 144K miles and 8 years old, if it doesn't already have a leak that you can hear....its slowly developing a crack.
 
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Her engine idles pretty roughly right now




Remove the throtle body and the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve and clean it with a rag. You will be surprised at just how dirty both get. The wire mesh screen on our 1998 EX was 90% clogged with gunk when I inspected it.

For the IAC valve, I used a 'flat edge' screwdriver to remove the gunk from the screen.
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Her engine idles pretty roughly right now




Remove the throtle body and the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve and clean it with a rag. You will be surprised at just how dirty both get. The wire mesh screen on our 1998 EX was 90% clogged with gunk when I inspected it.

For the IAC valve, I used a 'flat edge' screwdriver to remove the gunk from the screen.
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Awesome, thanks for the tip!
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Replaced the fuel filter, unfortunately it made no difference
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Sorry rsylvstr
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Note, I'd disconnected the battery while working on it so the CEL of course went out. It did some blinking then came back on permanently after 5 minutes or so of driving with some WOT runs.

I put a bottle of Techron Concentrate Plus in the tank and filled it up. I put 40-50 miles a day on the car during the week, so we'll see if it helps while I'm checking out other things.

FWIW, in checking the cap, rotor, wires, etc the other day, I took it all apart and reassembled carefully - no change in behavior. As for the broken bolts - the cap bolts into three little threaded tabs on the exterior of the distributor body - the broken off parts of the bolts are still stuck inside those tabs, so they're safe
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On to those other things. I figure tomorrow (it's getting dark and some shows I like are coming on
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) after work I can examine the exhaust manifold.

What else should I add to my list of checks? Perhaps clean the TB and check the IAC valve? I figure I'll do whatever checks I'm capable of while I go through a tank or two of Techron, if it doesn't get better or I can't figure it out in a week or so I'll have to admit defeat and take it to the shop - hopefully there'll be several days of nice weather for motorcycling
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g20ooh, I'm gonna head to Sears on my way home tomorrow, I'll check for a vacuum gauge. Any particular brand or features I should look for?

jeff
 
Jeff ,
Thats GOOD that you got the filter in and the TECHRON - on a Monday pm .I wouldn't feel bad about the filter - you did get 54K out of it and it is good time to replace in other ways as well . I didn't point it before but your testing on Sunday ie 5th gear 5000RPM ETC made the filter being plugged less likely so although no cigar you still have eliminated that variable w/o a grievous extra expense .
I know they say 90K but esp with the run of the mill aftermarket filters 60K works for me - when I've cut them open I've never felt too early by anything to matter .

As to the vacuum gauge , thats funny ,I still have a Craftsman from the 1960s that works about as well as anything else including the ridiculessly expensive one bought in Germany . Theres not too much to look for unless things have changed . Maybe some of the others know of a current kit thats sharp .
If I was looking right now heres some of what I'd try to get or evaluate as an option .
1) A decent case/container .
2) If they still offer it some useful fittings etc of different diameters and types that would allow you use the gauge on your bike and other vehicles a little more conveniently .
3)A large and well marked face .
4)Something that looks robust - at least by todays standards . I'm not real big on things like this that are made in the PRC . That maybe hard to work around . In any case we just really need a basic gauge and a line to hook it up with .
5 )As an option an attractively priced package that includes a fuel pressure gauge that you could use here .


Depending on your budget and your whims and wooes about future work you might want to consider something like a Mity Vac kit( VACUUM PUMP/GAUGE KIT ) - they are real handy for many other things automotive . At my current location Murrays which is some kind of Auto Parts regional chain lets you use a full kit( metal ) for free ( 100.00$ refundable deposit ) under their loaner tool program so if you have that option or something similiar over there you could try one out and see if you really wanted one of your own . What ever you do make sure one way or another you have a good gauge interpetation booklet . I have no idea why they keep dropping the number of diagnostic presentations down and while we don't have to be fancy here its just good to have .

One thing I did today was go to a parts store and while there I looked at a cap and rotor for your car . I'm trying to picture the metal hose clamp thats helping to secure your cap ( I had it wrong in an earlier post when I referred to your rotor ) . So does your clamp run vertically or somehow horizontally ? If vertically would it be convenient for you to move it to a different location - at least temporarily or do you think you could somehow tie wrap ( multiple ) ? Don't make this a priority if it isn't super easy super good . In fact lets just skip it for now .
In the meantime lets let the TECHRON/FP3000 do its thing and get the gauge . I realize you have had a busy day but based on what the others are saying here I'd start moving somethings into position in regards to the exhaust manifold . For now I'd take a real good listen and start figuring out if necc. how to remove your heat shield . I'm not there so I don't know but I did see one time on a different vehicle where a loose heatshield was actually rattling more than "normal" because of a pretty big manifold leak so I might take a quick lookie see for that as well .


Having said all that I'm still leaning towards injectors ( spray pattern ) or low rpm fuel pressure if you have some sort of multi stage or multi pressure value system ie a system that runs a lower pressure or can run a lower pressure below say that RPM where things smooth out .I seem to recall somewhere on some kind of VTEC they did just that .
Final thought - do you happen to have any of the old wires lying around ?

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Looks like the basic Mityvac or Actron kits are ~$50. I've got a Sears gift card from wedding returns that should cover that
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I'll post a picture of my distributor setup tonight. It's hard to explain in words.

I shouldn't have much trouble with the heat sheild. If there's just the one in front of the exhaust manifold, I've removed it before when searching for a rattle. I ought to have time to check it tonight.

I scoured the manual, and spent some time googling to try to figure out if the car has a variable pressure fuel system, or multi speed pump - can't find anything. It might, but I can't figure it out.

Thanks for the continued help!
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jeff
 
The typical setup for a fuel injected vehicle is to have a fuel pressure regulator which is connected to a source of intake manifold vacuum.

The fuel pressure regulator is there to keep the pressure drop across the injectors constant. So, during periods of high intake manifold vacuum, such as at idle, it lowers the fuel pressure. During periods of low intake manifold vacuum, it increases the fuel pressure.

Your fuel pressure regulator looks like this:

http://info.rockauto.com/SMP/SMPDetail3.html?PR256.html

A common fault for fuel pressure regulators as they get older is that they will start letting fuel leak into the vacuum port which is attached to the intake manifold.
 
brianl703 - what I'm wondering about is - is there anything about this fuel system outside of "typical/normal/simple installation" fuel pressure regulator "float" as you described thats multistaged or if you will multi variable value staged ?

As an example from a component function angle is this a 2 speed/volume/pressure or a 2 chamber or a 2 function/schedule/design whatever fuel pump ?


On a related topic do you know if this is a "regular"/"high volume" or a "low volume" or a "no volume" return system ?


In the broadest sense , besides a regular type of fuel pressure regulator variance( roughly 8-12-16psi depending ) , fuel injector firing time , (and obviously fuel volume) is there anything VTEC and or RPM dependent that changes big time in the fuel system ?
Is this system designed to change the pressure across the injecter again dependent on 3500ish rpm or VTEC operation ?

On the broadest level do you happen to know anything else ( emissions , spark advance etc ) that makes a kind of a discrete flip "around" that rpm and or with part 2 of the the VTEC operation ?


Does anybody know the more exact details of this particular VTEC installation ? ( valve lift , duration , overlap ,command variables/algorithims etc , etc and how that might be effecting things here ( besides the obvious))
Is there anything that gets "turned off or on" upon stage 2 ?
 
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Does anybody know the more exact details of this particular VTEC installation ? ( valve lift , duration , overlap ,command variables/algorithims etc , etc and how that might be effecting things here ( besides the obvious))
Is there anything that gets "turned off or on" upon stage 2 ?


I'd be interested to know this also...the Haynes gives some info, but not enough, about the VTEC, go figure.
 
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Is this system designed to change the pressure across the injecter again dependent on 3500ish rpm or VTEC operation ?




I wouldn't think so--the fuel pressure regulator's function is, from what I understand, to ensure that when the engine computer opens the fuel injector for, say, 5 milliseconds, the same amount of fuel flows regardless of the intake manifold vacuum.

If there were no fuel pressure regulator and fuel pressure were just held at a constant figure, then opening the injector for 5mS (milliseconds) would result in much more fuel being dispensed at idle (due to the high intake manifold vacuum which helps suck fuel out of the injector) than it would at WOT where there is very little or no intake manifold vacuum.

There are "tricks" that are done to increase the flow rate of injectors by upping the fuel pressure beyond specifications..but this is only done to make undersized fuel injectors support more horsepower. I would not expect to see this done in a factory production car, nor would I do it on my own car (a set of larger injectors just isn't that expensive).
 
By the way, a random misfire code can be caused by a vacuum leak.

You could try disconnecting the O2 sensor and driving it around, see what it does that way.

P0132 looks suspicious to me.

This indicates a potential short circuit:

http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/g...-1-sensor-1.php

Since the response to a high voltage from the oxygen sensor is to lean out the mixture, maybe you are seeing a lean misfire?

I know that site says that "You will likely not notice any drivability problems." but we're talking about a car that's known to idle weird when there is an O2 sensor problem..
 
Jeff ,
Hang in there - waters almost always deeper in the middle .
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OK - just some odds and ends . Nothing more than mental multi tasking - things to think about for later and maybe now if convenient . Nothing here to change your plan of attack or your working hypothesises etc for now .

1) Is it possible to grab a decent piece of hose , slit it and regardless of how you have it on there get it between the hose clamp holding the cap on and everything else ? IDEALLY you would not only isolate the clamp from all the surfaces its in contact with but you would basically envelope it as much as is possible . If you have to - use pieces or segments . Until you correct your cap mounting hardware (if ever - I would but I'm not there) this is a good idea in more ways than one for the long haul as well . Also you do not want your clamp to be anything more than "JUST TIGHT ENOUGH" .

2) Would it be possible for you to determine if your vehicle is one of the 2000 CIVICS et al that was covered for the ignition switch/high resistence ignition command module recall ? If it is - has the switch replacement been done ? ( GOOGLE NHTSA - ODI for basic/detailed info BEFORE you call Honda - if applicable )

3) Do you know the maintenance history of this vehicle in terms of what TSBs have been applied ? Have these injectors ever been replaced ?

4) I assume we have nothing more than hand tools etc ie no diagnostic equipment what so ever - is that correct?

5)Exactly how does your engine perform at idle both in and out of gear ?

6)Do you have any old ignition parts such as the cap , the rotor , and the wires . Don't sweat it if you don't .

7)The most efficient thing to do in my mind is to ignore everything I just posted and really everything else for that matter - just for the time needed to get the vacuum gauge purchased and used on the car .
Why ?
Simple version is that its going to eliminate a lot of possibilties - vey quickly and usually helps you go thru the remaining ones much faster .
When you trouble shoot no matter what , with no matter what , ideally you want to funnel down rather than funnel up or out . A vacuum gauge is the least expensive tool to help do that .
So whatever you have planned and resources for I would definitely get that first and go from there .

Now , one other thing . My gut which is wrong just as often as its right
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is that you may/probably have more than one thing going on here . No biggie either way and just WAGing the main problem is just as likely to a singularity as something more - just be prepared for doing a little bit work .It also wouldn't surprise me if this one of those situations where 2/4 "little" things are stacking up against you in an unfavorable fashion .
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oops, mispost there. Let's try this again. Here's a couple pictures of the distributor. This is highly suspicious
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but it ran perfectly like this for 5 months, so I 't think it's ok.

http://tinyurl.com/33hrek

http://tinyurl.com/37nw2h

I picked up a vacuum gauge on my way home. The standard Mityvac kit.

Answers to your questions:
1) Is it possible to grab a decent piece of hose , slit it and regardless of how you have it on there get it between the hose clamp holding the cap on and everything else ? IDEALLY you would not only isolate the clamp from all the surfaces its in contact with but you would basically envelope it as much as is possible . If you have to - use pieces or segments . Until you correct your cap mounting hardware (if ever - I would but I'm not there) this is a good idea in more ways than one for the long haul as well . Also you do not want your clamp to be anything more than "JUST TIGHT ENOUGH".
I can definitely do this, just need to get some hose. The clamp is on quite tight, but not as tight as it could be.


2) Would it be possible for you to determine if your vehicle is one of the 2000 CIVICS et al that was covered for the ignition switch/high resistence ignition command module recall ? If it is - has the switch replacement been done ? ( GOOGLE NHTSA - ODI for basic/detailed info BEFORE you call Honda - if applicable )
No clue, but I'll look into it.

3) Do you know the maintenance history of this vehicle in terms of what TSBs have been applied ? Have these injectors ever been replaced ?
Not sure. It went to the dealer for the 30, 60, and 90k services. Oil changes performed regularly at a neighborhood garage up to 85k or so - then we got married and I started doing the simple stuff. An independent Honda/Acura shop handles the tough stuff.

4) I assume we have nothing more than hand tools etc ie no diagnostic equipment what so ever - is that correct?
Correct, aside from my new vacuum gauge
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5)Exactly how does your engine perform at idle both in and out of gear ?
No apparent difference between in gear and out. It idles normally for a while, then there'll be a "hiccup" and the rpms drop, then it settles back in. Sometimes the hiccups are frequent, other times it's more like 1 every 20-30 seconds.

6)Do you have any old ignition parts such as the cap , the rotor , and the wires . Don't sweat it if you don't .
Nope.

I'm gonna head out now (the car's been cooling down) and check the exhaust manifold and visually check for obvious vacuum leaks. Also if it looks easy I might try disconnecting the O2 sensor and driving around a bit per brian's suggestion. May save that for later though.

jeff
 
brian , Rob,
Well , one thing for D*** SURE it would be nice to have the manual , all the TSBs , etc AND a little more equipment - jeff no criticism intended .
Everybodies got great/useable stuff here .... its just if you start blasting away you really don't know what you're pointing at much less what you're hitting ......although sometimes you get blessed immediately .

I went cruising on the net a little bit in regards to this one ..... and ..... given the way my mind perceived the data ..... well there are definitely possibilities .... thats also for D*** SURE as well .


I took an oath of "uninvolvement" in 1999 so I'm feeling somewhat waaaaay behind the curve here on the practical good to know stuff for this particular vehicle . I know what I want to know .... and I know I don't .


Any way can we all agree its just best to pick a workable course that even if a little slow , tedious and at least somewhat inefficient still works - we need more elimination diagnostics if nothing else ie info w/o wasting resources -creating confusion and moving everything around .
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Anybody got a better way than the vacuum gauge first ?




As per your above I'm not convinced we don't have a simple vacuum leak maybe combined with some nontrippy dirty sensors ..... and some stuff on the TB ..... and some stuff in the injectors combined with a slightly sketchy couple of items in the ignition system ..... or maybe just one of the previous - probably compounded by the O2 AND possibly assisted by an exhaust manifold crack and a mildly defective ignition switch . The possibilities are endless given the vehicle , age , mileage , data/knowledge we have etc, etc . Then again it just maybe one of them as well - so thats part of why I'm thinking VG first - it will eliminate/and point and its cheap and simple to use .
 
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