I am betting BMW will move from LL01 to LL04 as soon as the US gas standard is 10 ppm like Europe. Until then, we are considered only low sulfur. Thanks for confirming that. I saw many LL04 and got tired of clicking around.
Millers Oil
- Thread starter dennishiip
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BMW don't want LL04 oils going into their gasoline cars anywhere in the world except for Europe.
LL01 is the only oil specification that should be used in Gasolines in US
LL04 is for DPF equipt diesels
LL01 is the only oil specification that should be used in Gasolines in US
LL04 is for DPF equipt diesels
FWIW, effective as of yesterday, Millers now has Porsche approval for the A40 spec for one of its oils, the XF Longlife 5W40. Effective date range June 1, 2013 - May 31, 2016. I have a PDF of the approval letter, not certain if I can disseminate it. The formulation hasn't met, all it means is that Millers can now use the term "approved," rather than "meets." I assume the "recommended" terminology would NOT meet the spec.
Note this is NOT for the NT oil, but one of the regular street oils. All indications are that the NT oils will never gain OEM approval due specifically to the NT additive; however, it is possible that that will change, as the gear oil at least is very likely to become the factory fill in one brand. But the presence of the NT additive precludes meeting an actual OEM spec.
Note this is NOT for the NT oil, but one of the regular street oils. All indications are that the NT oils will never gain OEM approval due specifically to the NT additive; however, it is possible that that will change, as the gear oil at least is very likely to become the factory fill in one brand. But the presence of the NT additive precludes meeting an actual OEM spec.
Porsche A40 approval. That's a big deal.
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Porsche A40 approval. That's a big deal.
Agree. One of the strictest OEM specifications, in my opinion.
I'll be keeping this oil on my radar for sure.
Porsche A40 approval. That's a big deal.
Agree. One of the strictest OEM specifications, in my opinion.
I'll be keeping this oil on my radar for sure.
Even if it NEVER meets the A40 specs, a 0W-40 CRX NanoDrive from Millers would be welcome, as would a Nano Tech manual transmission fluid in the 9.0-10.5 cSt @ 100* C range.
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Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Even if it NEVER meets the A40 specs, a 0W-40 CRX NanoDrive from Millers would be welcome, as would a Nano Tech manual transmission fluid in the 9.0-10.5 cSt @ 100* C range.
+1
Even if it NEVER meets the A40 specs, a 0W-40 CRX NanoDrive from Millers would be welcome, as would a Nano Tech manual transmission fluid in the 9.0-10.5 cSt @ 100* C range.
+1
For the sake of clarity, the CRX is the designation for gearbox oil. The CFS is the engine oil (Competition Fully Synthetic). But for the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread about Millers' philosophy regarding the highest quality base stocks and minimal VI's, I would not expect a 0W40 to be made available.
The good news, though, is if the desire for a thinner oil at colder temperatures is due to concern over wear at start-up, the NT drastically alleviates that issue, as it somewhat forms a coating on the parts. Here's a little blurb with an illustration of what friction charts look like at start-up. Note the left most point is with virgin oil, and the subsequent cycles are for re-starts. My personal opinion is, in road applications, this has a tremendous amount of potential for start-stop applications that are becoming more and more prominent.
Information on NT in EE (Energy Efficient) line of oils - note this is an internal document
Since that is an internal document, here's an SAE International article (I personally prefer neutral/unbiased data when I can get it): SAE International
The good news, though, is if the desire for a thinner oil at colder temperatures is due to concern over wear at start-up, the NT drastically alleviates that issue, as it somewhat forms a coating on the parts. Here's a little blurb with an illustration of what friction charts look like at start-up. Note the left most point is with virgin oil, and the subsequent cycles are for re-starts. My personal opinion is, in road applications, this has a tremendous amount of potential for start-stop applications that are becoming more and more prominent.
Information on NT in EE (Energy Efficient) line of oils - note this is an internal document
Since that is an internal document, here's an SAE International article (I personally prefer neutral/unbiased data when I can get it): SAE International
I think an NT manual trans lube would interfere with the sycros and cause shifting problems.
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
I think an NT manual trans lube would interfere with the sycros and cause shifting problems.
Um, they already make an NT manual trans lube.
I think an NT manual trans lube would interfere with the sycros and cause shifting problems.
Um, they already make an NT manual trans lube.
Originally Posted By: simple_simon
Um, they already make an NT manual trans lube.
Then I eat my words!
Um, they already make an NT manual trans lube.
Then I eat my words!
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A thinner NT MTF would be a great addition to their lineup and possibly an NT additive for other oils and lubes because their own lineup is fairly limited.
The concern Tempest raised about the NT and synchros is not unwarranted. Obviously, it works (quite well - we've gotten incredible feedback on it from guys using in their street cars to weekend warriors, all of the way up to the pro level). But the fact that it reduces coefficient of friction and makes things slicker does seem to contradict the purpose of synchros. I would speculate that it doesn't cause issues because of the feature size. In other words, the surface finish on the synchros is large enough that the NT won't interfere. We have had great feedback from guys with normally notchy gearboxes who have switched to it that were blown away by it. The Subaru WRX is one that comes to mind immediately. We've also had similar feedback on the Subaru/Scion FT86 siblings. Guys running temperature gauges without external cooling systems are seeing 25 degrees or so cooler temperatures, which likely helps, too (since gear oils do get a little slicker with temperature). Both my business partner and I run it in our race cars (synchronized transaxles).
Although the lineup may seem limited, it covers the overwhelming majority of the motorsports market out there. The technology is making its way into street oils. I understand the desire for a thinner gear oil, and frankly, I am hoping that Millers will decide to do one that would work for manual transmissions specifying ATF (e.g. Borg Warner/Tremec T-5's, T-56's, etc.).
An interesting note, the prevailing theory HAD been that the NT would not work in a wet clutch application, but there are some motorcycle teams in Europe who have had great success with it. I've been talking to a couple of different Ducati teams, one had planned to change to it last year after doing some testing, but ended up running out of funding. Still working with a different team to see what we can arrange for them.
Although the lineup may seem limited, it covers the overwhelming majority of the motorsports market out there. The technology is making its way into street oils. I understand the desire for a thinner gear oil, and frankly, I am hoping that Millers will decide to do one that would work for manual transmissions specifying ATF (e.g. Borg Warner/Tremec T-5's, T-56's, etc.).
An interesting note, the prevailing theory HAD been that the NT would not work in a wet clutch application, but there are some motorcycle teams in Europe who have had great success with it. I've been talking to a couple of different Ducati teams, one had planned to change to it last year after doing some testing, but ended up running out of funding. Still working with a different team to see what we can arrange for them.
Is something like CFS 10w60 NT safe for use in a road-going vehicle? I see no API or ACEA info on the product datasheet, nor a TBN.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Is something like CFS 10w60 NT safe for use in a road-going vehicle? I see no API or ACEA info on the product datasheet, nor a TBN.
With a HTHSV >6.0cP this oil is much heavier than TWS and therefore unsuitable for street use for that reason alone.
Their 10W-50 has similar virgin viscosity spec's to TWS, but their apparently shear stable 5W-40 (HTHSV >4.4cP) would likely be the closest match in terms of actual operational viscosity.
Is something like CFS 10w60 NT safe for use in a road-going vehicle? I see no API or ACEA info on the product datasheet, nor a TBN.
With a HTHSV >6.0cP this oil is much heavier than TWS and therefore unsuitable for street use for that reason alone.
Their 10W-50 has similar virgin viscosity spec's to TWS, but their apparently shear stable 5W-40 (HTHSV >4.4cP) would likely be the closest match in terms of actual operational viscosity.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Is something like CFS 10w60 NT safe for use in a road-going vehicle? I see no API or ACEA info on the product datasheet, nor a TBN.
Additive pack is based on meeting SM spec, but I believe it meets SN. It is listed in the "performance profile" section of the data sheet. Except, of course, for the elevated ZDDP, which prevents the oil from meeting it. TBN is 11.0
I use 10W50 in my 968, we have several customers using the CFS NT in their street cars, one example is this guy: 430 horse/475 lb-ft 335i daily driver. The only "caveat" would be the ZDDP level, see below.
Engine oils that use NT (CFS - Competition Fully Synthetic, EE = Energy Efficient street oil):
CFS 0W20 NT
CFS 0W30 NT
CFS 5W40 NT
CFS 10W50 NT
CFS 10W60 NT
EE Longlife C3 5W30 (BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, other ACEA C3 spec applications)
EE Longlife ECO 5W30 (European Ford spec, don't recall details)
EE 10W40 (semi-synthetic - we do not currently stock this)
Gear oils using NT (CRX is the race gear oil, EE is the Energy Efficient street oil):
CRX 75W90 NT
CRX LS 75W90 NT
CRX 75W140 NT
CRX LS 75W140 NT
EE Transmission 75W90
Is it "safe?" It has elevated ZDDP levels, which prevent it from meeting the spec. Great for protecting your engine. But over the very, very long term, it can poison the catalytic converter. Cat poisoning can be reversed through running the cats at higher temperatures for a period of time. In other words, if you do the occasional track day, you'll probably be burning it all off. All that said, cat technology didn't change appreciably when they starting taking out ZDDP, and the specification initially was limited to the 20 and 30 weight oils. So I'm not convinced that the EPA's position is entirely sound. That is the only thing that would be prone to making it a risk. The biggest reason to stay away from a race oil in a street application is typically when they have very reduced additive packs, which drastically limit their lifespan. The Millers has a very good, robust additive pack that will allow the oil to be run for a very long period of time without the need to change, or without risk of becoming acidic.
Funny you mention this, from the time I started this e-mail until now, I just fielded a call from a potential dealer in Canada who asked specifically about the 10W60 in the context of the E92 M3's spec. Never realized they spec'd a 10W60.
Is something like CFS 10w60 NT safe for use in a road-going vehicle? I see no API or ACEA info on the product datasheet, nor a TBN.
Additive pack is based on meeting SM spec, but I believe it meets SN. It is listed in the "performance profile" section of the data sheet. Except, of course, for the elevated ZDDP, which prevents the oil from meeting it. TBN is 11.0
I use 10W50 in my 968, we have several customers using the CFS NT in their street cars, one example is this guy: 430 horse/475 lb-ft 335i daily driver. The only "caveat" would be the ZDDP level, see below.
Engine oils that use NT (CFS - Competition Fully Synthetic, EE = Energy Efficient street oil):
CFS 0W20 NT
CFS 0W30 NT
CFS 5W40 NT
CFS 10W50 NT
CFS 10W60 NT
EE Longlife C3 5W30 (BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, other ACEA C3 spec applications)
EE Longlife ECO 5W30 (European Ford spec, don't recall details)
EE 10W40 (semi-synthetic - we do not currently stock this)
Gear oils using NT (CRX is the race gear oil, EE is the Energy Efficient street oil):
CRX 75W90 NT
CRX LS 75W90 NT
CRX 75W140 NT
CRX LS 75W140 NT
EE Transmission 75W90
Is it "safe?" It has elevated ZDDP levels, which prevent it from meeting the spec. Great for protecting your engine. But over the very, very long term, it can poison the catalytic converter. Cat poisoning can be reversed through running the cats at higher temperatures for a period of time. In other words, if you do the occasional track day, you'll probably be burning it all off. All that said, cat technology didn't change appreciably when they starting taking out ZDDP, and the specification initially was limited to the 20 and 30 weight oils. So I'm not convinced that the EPA's position is entirely sound. That is the only thing that would be prone to making it a risk. The biggest reason to stay away from a race oil in a street application is typically when they have very reduced additive packs, which drastically limit their lifespan. The Millers has a very good, robust additive pack that will allow the oil to be run for a very long period of time without the need to change, or without risk of becoming acidic.
Funny you mention this, from the time I started this e-mail until now, I just fielded a call from a potential dealer in Canada who asked specifically about the 10W60 in the context of the E92 M3's spec. Never realized they spec'd a 10W60.
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Originally Posted By: 67King
Funny you mention this, from the time I started this e-mail until now, I just fielded a call from a potential dealer in Canada who asked specifically about the 10W60 in the context of the E92 M3's spec. Never realized they spec'd a 10W60.
Technically they spec Castrol TWS (now Edge Professional), which is a 10w60. The rumor is that this oil is recommended to combat consumption and to offer maximum protection for sustained high-speed driving, such as on the autobahn or on the track -- two places the M cars are "supposed" to be. The TWS oil does shears into a heavier 40 very quickly, but maintains that viscosity for the remainder of the change interval (up to 15k miles).
They seem to do fine on ACEA A3/B4 oils, however, as some folks have proven on this site through repeated UOAs. One member was running Mobil 1 0w40 in his.
Funny you mention this, from the time I started this e-mail until now, I just fielded a call from a potential dealer in Canada who asked specifically about the 10W60 in the context of the E92 M3's spec. Never realized they spec'd a 10W60.
Technically they spec Castrol TWS (now Edge Professional), which is a 10w60. The rumor is that this oil is recommended to combat consumption and to offer maximum protection for sustained high-speed driving, such as on the autobahn or on the track -- two places the M cars are "supposed" to be. The TWS oil does shears into a heavier 40 very quickly, but maintains that viscosity for the remainder of the change interval (up to 15k miles).
They seem to do fine on ACEA A3/B4 oils, however, as some folks have proven on this site through repeated UOAs. One member was running Mobil 1 0w40 in his.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Porsche A40 approval. That's a big deal.
Agree. One of the strictest OEM specifications, in my opinion.
I'll be keeping this oil on my radar for sure.
They are probably one of the most flexible. VW is strictest and one of the more difficult specs
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Porsche A40 approval. That's a big deal.
Agree. One of the strictest OEM specifications, in my opinion.
I'll be keeping this oil on my radar for sure.
They are probably one of the most flexible. VW is strictest and one of the more difficult specs
Regarding 10W-60. It's not an ILSAC grade, hence no phos limit.
Originally Posted By: 67King
For the sake of clarity, the CRX is the designation for gearbox oil. The CFS is the engine oil (Competition Fully Synthetic). But for the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread about Millers' philosophy regarding the highest quality base stocks and minimal VI's, I would not expect a 0W40 to be made available.
The good news, though, is if the desire for a thinner oil at colder temperatures is due to concern over wear at start-up, the NT drastically alleviates that issue, as it somewhat forms a coating on the parts. Here's a little blurb with an illustration of what friction charts look like at start-up. Note the left most point is with virgin oil, and the subsequent cycles are for re-starts. My personal opinion is, in road applications, this has a tremendous amount of potential for start-stop applications that are becoming more and more prominent.
Information on NT in EE (Energy Efficient) line of oils - note this is an internal document
Since that is an internal document, here's an SAE International article (I personally prefer neutral/unbiased data when I can get it): SAE International
And I'm am guessing (and hoping) that THIS^^^ will also make up for the (much too maligned on here) lower VIs of the oil I am currently using during start-up/warm-up, especially for a SUMMER OCI.
For the sake of clarity, the CRX is the designation for gearbox oil. The CFS is the engine oil (Competition Fully Synthetic). But for the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread about Millers' philosophy regarding the highest quality base stocks and minimal VI's, I would not expect a 0W40 to be made available.
The good news, though, is if the desire for a thinner oil at colder temperatures is due to concern over wear at start-up, the NT drastically alleviates that issue, as it somewhat forms a coating on the parts. Here's a little blurb with an illustration of what friction charts look like at start-up. Note the left most point is with virgin oil, and the subsequent cycles are for re-starts. My personal opinion is, in road applications, this has a tremendous amount of potential for start-stop applications that are becoming more and more prominent.
Information on NT in EE (Energy Efficient) line of oils - note this is an internal document
Since that is an internal document, here's an SAE International article (I personally prefer neutral/unbiased data when I can get it): SAE International
And I'm am guessing (and hoping) that THIS^^^ will also make up for the (much too maligned on here) lower VIs of the oil I am currently using during start-up/warm-up, especially for a SUMMER OCI.
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