Mid saps sacrifices the engine for the DPF?
- Thread starter jkhawaii
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No. The additives are different not better or worse.
Phosphorus fouls catalytic convertors in gasoline vehicles, and DPF filters in diesels, this is true.
If it did not, you would see around 1200 ppm P in almost every oil. Fortunately they make up for it with titanium, moly, esters, etc. to get great wear results and eliminate problems.
If it did not, you would see around 1200 ppm P in almost every oil. Fortunately they make up for it with titanium, moly, esters, etc. to get great wear results and eliminate problems.
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
Maybe...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3350478/re-c4-in-place-of-c3#Post3350478
Just to clarify, the above post was about low SAPS, not mid SAPS. And it was a while ago. Things may have changed since.
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
Maybe...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3350478/re-c4-in-place-of-c3#Post3350478
Just to clarify, the above post was about low SAPS, not mid SAPS. And it was a while ago. Things may have changed since.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
I'm thinking @paoester nailed it.
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
I'm thinking @paoester nailed it.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
Back in the day, US gasoline had high sulfur levels, which made low/mid SAPS oils less suitable for extended OCIs here. Nowadays, my guess is US gasoline sulfur levels are as low as in Europe, or getting close to it, so it should no longer pose a problem.
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
Back in the day, US gasoline had high sulfur levels, which made low/mid SAPS oils less suitable for extended OCIs here. Nowadays, my guess is US gasoline sulfur levels are as low as in Europe, or getting close to it, so it should no longer pose a problem.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
Back in the day, US gasoline had high sulfur levels, which made low/mid SAPS oils less suitable for extended OCIs here. Nowadays, my guess is US gasoline sulfur levels are as low as in Europe, or getting close to it, so it should no longer pose a problem.
I was referring to statement that lack of phosphorus or zinc is bad for engine. So, I would like that answer which we recycled numerous times here.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
Back in the day, US gasoline had high sulfur levels, which made low/mid SAPS oils less suitable for extended OCIs here. Nowadays, my guess is US gasoline sulfur levels are as low as in Europe, or getting close to it, so it should no longer pose a problem.
I was referring to statement that lack of phosphorus or zinc is bad for engine. So, I would like that answer which we recycled numerous times here.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by benjy
unless your getting oil past the rings etc + using oil the type of oil should not matter IMO
I am not sure I understand what you wanted to say?
If you referring to potential DPF issues, evaporation loss+high SAPS are detrimental to DPF.
unless your getting oil past the rings etc + using oil the type of oil should not matter IMO
I am not sure I understand what you wanted to say?
If you referring to potential DPF issues, evaporation loss+high SAPS are detrimental to DPF.
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
But Edy I think if those vehicles would have run full saps oils they would have gone 505-605k km. Obviously.
And changed DPF two times.
Originally Posted by jkhawaii
The engine itself would be happier with higher zinc and phosphorus, but the DPF would like less. So for light duty they are making a trade off?
So how taxis in Europe make 500-600k km on Low-SAPS or Mid-SAPS oils? Do tell us!
But Edy I think if those vehicles would have run full saps oils they would have gone 505-605k km. Obviously.
And changed DPF two times.
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Dog converter?
In their PDS they state ESP 5w30 meets or exceeds API SN requirements. That should mean it would be no problem in an engine calling for a 5w30 API SN oil? I doubt anything in terms of wear protection would be compromised.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by demarpaint
In their PDS they state ESP 5w30 meets or exceeds API SN requirements. That should mean it would be no problem in an engine calling for a 5w30 API SN oil? I doubt anything in terms of wear protection would be compromised.
European manufacturers do not care about API, and SN is not stringent at all compare to European specifications.
In their PDS they state ESP 5w30 meets or exceeds API SN requirements. That should mean it would be no problem in an engine calling for a 5w30 API SN oil? I doubt anything in terms of wear protection would be compromised.
European manufacturers do not care about API, and SN is not stringent at all compare to European specifications.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by sloinker
So if you have a good engine with low ring bypass and use an extremely low Noack oil you can have that higher level of phosphorous as it won't be in the combustion process? Long DPF life for a diesel?
That is why those specifications have max NOACK around 10%.
So if you have a good engine with low ring bypass and use an extremely low Noack oil you can have that higher level of phosphorous as it won't be in the combustion process? Long DPF life for a diesel?
That is why those specifications have max NOACK around 10%.
If you don't plan on running extended OCI's a product like Mobil 1 ESP [low saps] looks better than their mainstream oils like Mobil 1, AFE, EP and AP. If you look at this chart [and believe charts] COMPARISON CHART do the comparison and put any of their popular 30 grade oils you'll see XOM states it themselves.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by demarpaint
If you don't plan on running extended OCI's a product like Mobil 1 ESP [low saps] looks better than their mainstream oils like Mobil 1, AFE, EP and AP. If you look at this chart [and believe charts] COMPARISON CHART do the comparison and put any of their popular 30 grade oils you'll see XOM states it themselves.
That chart is meaningless. It is as simplistc marketing tool as it can get.
This is much more useful. Compare VW504.00/507.00 that ESp 5W30 carries with API and you will get better picture.
Lubrizol relative comparison tool
If you don't plan on running extended OCI's a product like Mobil 1 ESP [low saps] looks better than their mainstream oils like Mobil 1, AFE, EP and AP. If you look at this chart [and believe charts] COMPARISON CHART do the comparison and put any of their popular 30 grade oils you'll see XOM states it themselves.
That chart is meaningless. It is as simplistc marketing tool as it can get.
This is much more useful. Compare VW504.00/507.00 that ESp 5W30 carries with API and you will get better picture.
Lubrizol relative comparison tool
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by demarpaint
If you don't plan on running extended OCI's a product like Mobil 1 ESP [low saps] looks better than their mainstream oils like Mobil 1, AFE, EP and AP. If you look at this chart [and believe charts] COMPARISON CHART do the comparison and put any of their popular 30 grade oils you'll see XOM states it themselves.
That chart is meaningless. It is as simplistc marketing tool as it can get.
This is much more useful. Compare VW504.00/507.00 that ESp 5W30 carries with API and you will get better picture.
Lubrizol relative comparison tool
Thanks, I've used that too. The ESP fills in the tool nicely.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
If you don't plan on running extended OCI's a product like Mobil 1 ESP [low saps] looks better than their mainstream oils like Mobil 1, AFE, EP and AP. If you look at this chart [and believe charts] COMPARISON CHART do the comparison and put any of their popular 30 grade oils you'll see XOM states it themselves.
That chart is meaningless. It is as simplistc marketing tool as it can get.
This is much more useful. Compare VW504.00/507.00 that ESp 5W30 carries with API and you will get better picture.
Lubrizol relative comparison tool
Thanks, I've used that too. The ESP fills in the tool nicely.
I don't think Noack really comes into it. The material which volatilises will be light end hydrocarbons, not metal-containing species. This is why additive elements tend to concentrate over time, as the light ends evaporate and leave behind the heavier additives and their metabolites.
Also, phosphorus is not a problem for a DPF per se, it is the zinc that comes with the phosphorus that is the problem. If the DPF is in some way catalysed then yes, the P can be an issue, but P does not form a stable ash that will block a DPF (or GPF).
Overall you want the total amount of metals that go down the exhaust to be minimised. This is effectively [OIL ASH LEVEL] x [OIL BURN RATE]. For a fixed oil burn rate, a lower ash oil will help. Even if your oil burn rate is very low, a lower ash oil will still be better.
That said, Volvo used to spec ACEA A5/B5 oils for their pre-Drive-E diesels with DPFs (although in fairness, they were the odd ones out at the time).
Also, phosphorus is not a problem for a DPF per se, it is the zinc that comes with the phosphorus that is the problem. If the DPF is in some way catalysed then yes, the P can be an issue, but P does not form a stable ash that will block a DPF (or GPF).
Overall you want the total amount of metals that go down the exhaust to be minimised. This is effectively [OIL ASH LEVEL] x [OIL BURN RATE]. For a fixed oil burn rate, a lower ash oil will help. Even if your oil burn rate is very low, a lower ash oil will still be better.
That said, Volvo used to spec ACEA A5/B5 oils for their pre-Drive-E diesels with DPFs (although in fairness, they were the odd ones out at the time).
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