Michelin Recall for Snowflake Issue

[CapriRacer]

Apparently some Michelin tires don't meet the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol requirements. First time I have heard of that.

You received this email because you have requested to be notified by NHTSA if there is a safety recall regarding Tires.

Please click on the following NHTSA Recall ID links to view the recall information.

NHTSA Recall ID Number :​	23T002
Synopsis :​	Michelin North America, Inc. (Michelin) is recalling certain Agilis CrossClimate C-Metric tires with DOT codes 0117 through 1423. Please see the attached tire chart for a list of all affected sizes. The tires are labeled as snow tires, but do not have sufficient traction to perform in all snow weather conditions. As such, these tires fail to comply with the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard number 139, "New Pneumatic Radial Tires for Light Vehicles." Tires that do not provide sufficient traction as expected can increase the risk of a crash. Dealers will replace the tires, free of charge. Interim owner notification letters informing owners of the safety risk will be mailed June 12, 2023. Owners will receive a second notice once the remedy becomes available. Owners may contact Michelin's customer service at 1-866-324-2835.

Thank you,

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
United States Department of Transportation

 

[Jetronic]

Hmm,
"tyres that do not provide sufficient traction can increase the risk of a crash"

In that case there's quite a lof of tyres that should be recalled, some are dreadful even in the wet.

"Owners will receive a second notice once the remedy becomes available". Don't see any other remedy than replacement.

 

[krzyss]

The tires may have abysmal traction but if they wear correct letter (AA, A, B, C?) the customer has been warned.
Here we have a case of manufacturer claiming that certain tire (maybe even size related?) passes the snow traction test when it does not.

I wonder if it is self-reported or somebody found it under the testing?

Krzyś

 

[IndyIan]

Apparently some Michelin tires don't meet the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol requirements. First time I have heard of that.

You received this email because you have requested to be notified by NHTSA if there is a safety recall regarding Tires.

Please click on the following NHTSA Recall ID links to view the recall information.

NHTSA Recall ID Number :​	23T002
Synopsis :​	Michelin North America, Inc. (Michelin) is recalling certain Agilis CrossClimate C-Metric tires with DOT codes 0117 through 1423. Please see the attached tire chart for a list of all affected sizes. The tires are labeled as snow tires, but do not have sufficient traction to perform in all snow weather conditions. As such, these tires fail to comply with the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard number 139, "New Pneumatic Radial Tires for Light Vehicles." Tires that do not provide sufficient traction as expected can increase the risk of a crash. Dealers will replace the tires, free of charge. Interim owner notification letters informing owners of the safety risk will be mailed June 12, 2023. Owners will receive a second notice once the remedy becomes available. Owners may contact Michelin's customer service at 1-866-324-2835.

Thank you,

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
United States Department of Transportation

These are the small commercial van tires. I can see how its tough to make a softer winter friendly compound last in that application, so they probably err'd on making them last a reasonable amount of time...

 

[edyvw]

The tires may have abysmal traction but if they wear correct letter (AA, A, B, C?) the customer has been warned.
Here we have a case of manufacturer claiming that certain tire (maybe even size related?) passes the snow traction test when it does not.

I wonder if it is self-reported or somebody found it under the testing?

Krzyś

Self reported. Probably they messed up compound, self reported it and that is it.
That is what serious manufacturers do.

 

[Snagglefoot]

That gives you some confidence that the snowflake image is a real deal.

 

[Danno]

Don't see any other remedy than replacement.

Remove the whiz wheel Snowflake emblem off the tire, leave a notice for driver tires are no long snowflake rated.
Pay a $20 per tire penalty.
Any bets on this is the solution?

 

[Jetronic]

Doubt it as people paid for a 3pmsf tyre...

 

[krzyss]

50% discount for X-Ice snow? Which defeats one tire does all purpose but live is tough.

Krzyś

PS Kudos to Michelin if they self-reported.

 

[Pelican]

This Recall dates back to January 2020, by now they ought to have all been done!

 

[krzyss]

I read a few attachments.
It was discovered recently so it is not "done". It seems to be hot from management meeting on 4/6.

There may be a recall in Europe too. Initial test was done with improper (I assume too low, improving snow traction) pressure!
If tire does not meet US 3MPSF test (115% of reference tire traction) it does not meet EU 3MPSF test even more (120% of the traction), if I remember Capri's data.


Chronology :
2/16/2017 – During the development of the tire line in Europe, testing to qualify the tire for the Alpine Symbol
for Europe, the United States, and Canada was performed and certified.
October/November 2018; March 2021 - Prior to sale of the tire in the United States and Canada, MNA
reviewed and accepted this certification.
11/14/2022 - As part of transferring production of selected C-Metric tires into the US and Canada, MNA
decided to perform regulatory snow testing at two locations. At or around this same date, MNA also discovered
that the initial certification from Europe was performed at an improper tire pressure.
On or around 11/17/2022 - MNA further became aware of additional, inconclusive snow testing data
previously requested by Europe in 2019, 2020, and 2021, as well as an inconclusive competitor study
completed by MNA in 2020, which suggested some dimensions may not qualify for the Alpine Symbol.
1/24 2023, 1/27/2023 and 1/28/2023 – The previously scheduled snow testing occurred at one of two
locations.
2/8/2023 - Initial test results were received from one location.
2/13/2023 – MNA reviewed the test results from the one location and determined that the incorrect test
method was performed using the LT-Metric Option 1 load (ASTM F1805).
2/16/2023 – Retesting at Eurometric C (Commercial LT) Option 2 load (ASTM F1805) were scheduled and
given high priority.
3/8/2023 – Retest results were received.
3/9/2023 - Test results from the second location were received.
3/10/2023 - Snow test results for both locations were reviewed.
3/13/2023-4/5/2023 - MNA initiated a comprehensive review of all existing FMVSS test results to establish a
validated data set and to evaluate the scope of potentially impacted tires.
4/6/2023 – A determination meeting occurred and a formal decision of non-compliance was made.

It was submitted 4/13 - a week after the meeting.
Still kudos to Michelin but it seems that they have bigger issues to fix with their testing.

Krzyś

 

[UG_Passat]

The tires may have abysmal traction but if they wear correct letter (AA, A, B, C?) the customer has been warned.
Here we have a case of manufacturer claiming that certain tire (maybe even size related?) passes the snow traction test when it does not.

I wonder if it is self-reported or somebody found it under the testing?

Krzyś

That's wet surface braking coefficient, not snow acceleration traction for the US/canada 3PMSF

3PMSF requirements are different from US/Canada to Europe.

 

[UG_Passat]

Self reported. Probably they messed up compound, self reported it and that is it.
That is what serious manufacturers do.

No, Michelin Europe messed up their testing, that it didn't meet test standards and still initially reported the test as a pass.

Serious manufacturers don't glance over their test procedures and assume everything is correct and assume results are good.

These days with increased use of computers, serious companies will require technicians to verify and input every parameter required for the test documentation, along with test results, so that a manufacturing and quality engineer can review and validate the test conducted and results, and makes it easier for internal/external auditors audit the test afterwards

 

[edyvw]

No, Michelin Europe messed up their testing, that it didn't meet test standards and still initially reported the test as a pass.

Serious manufacturers don't glance over their test procedures and assume everything is correct and assume results are good.

These days with increased use of computers, serious companies will require technicians to verify and input every parameter required for the test documentation, along with test results, so that a manufacturing and quality engineer can review and validate the test conducted and results, and makes it easier for internal/external auditors audit the test afterwards

And your point? They went back and said we screwed up, not like some companies who purposely made tires with different compounds and did not tell anyone. It is Michelin; they don't have to cheat.
Regardless of what system you have in place, things can happen. It is still a human-driven process.

 

[krzyss]

That's wet surface braking coefficient, not snow acceleration traction for the US/canada 3PMSF

3PMSF requirements are different from US/Canada to Europe.

If tire qualified for only B or C but was made with A traction letter it would be recallable too, IMHO.
That is only analogy.

3MPFS requirements are different but EU are supposedly higher thresholds hence assumption that if tire passes EU test it must pass US snow traction test. Apparently it (or rather they, all sizes listed in the recall) may not even meet EU test. I suspect Michelin is busy checking EU spec test results.

Krzyś

 

[UG_Passat]

If tire qualified for only B or C but was made with A traction letter it would be recallable too, IMHO.
That is only analogy.

3MPFS requirements are different but EU are supposedly higher thresholds hence assumption that if tire passes EU test it must pass US snow traction test. Apparently it (or rather they, all sizes listed in the recall) may not even meet EU test. I suspect Michelin is busy checking EU spec test results.

Krzyś

But the recall is not about UTQG ratings

EU 3PMSF test is about braking in snow. US/Canada 3PMSF is about accelerating from a stop. Apples to oranges comparisons for 3PMSF requirements

 

[Bill7]

Michelin used to have the reputation as the best, safest tire brand back in the 1970's and 1980's. If you google Michelin dry rot issues, you'll see so many complaints.They've cheapened their product and lost my confidence. They would be at the bottom of my list for new tire purchases. Just an example of what can happen to a great company when the management cheapens the product for max short term profit, but longer term market share loss.

 

[UG_Passat]

And your point? They went back and said we screwed up, not like some companies who purposely made tires with different compounds and did not tell anyone. It is Michelin; they don't have to cheat.
Regardless of what system you have in place, things can happen. It is still a human-driven process.

Michelin isn’t world-class when it comes to manufacturing like you seem to think it is.

They screwed up by rubber stamping test results dating back to 2016. Which shows their QMS is faulty. So much for following their QMS that gave them ISO 9001 certification

 

[edyvw]

Michelin isn’t world-class when it comes to manufacturing like you seem to think it is.

They screwed up by rubber stamping test results dating back to 2016. Which shows their QMS is faulty. So much for following their QMS that gave them ISO 9001 certification

Of course, they are world-class manufacturer.

NO manufacturer will be issue free. However, unlike "some" they do not cheat.

 

[nthach]

Michelin isn’t world-class when it comes to manufacturing like you seem to think it is.

They screwed up by rubber stamping test results dating back to 2016. Which shows their QMS is faulty. So much for following their QMS that gave them ISO 9001 certification

Michelin’s had to recall tires for other reasons too. I think they recalled a batch that was OE on many GMs for a manufacturing issue.

TREAD has upped the ante on the tire makers to be honest and recall sooner than later. Problem is, unless you buy tires from Discount/America’s Tire or Costco, no one bothers sending in the RMA recall postcard in. Costco gives out the card, but you’ll get a letter in the mail if there’s a CPSC/NHTSA recall(it has happened - Costco asks members to bring back recalled electronics, baby gear, scuba gear, appliances, food for an immediate no quibble refund if there is a recall, in the case of food, they’ll refund regardless).