Michelin LTX MS/2
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: supton
Got some snow last night; something like 12" of powder but it was packed down to 8" or so when I got out there to shovel it. Drove through it with the truck, it was skidplate-high. By the road where it piles up from the plow I stopped to look both ways, and it would not go through it (slight incline); had to take a running start at it. 4WD with traction off, of course.
Is your truck light? Just wondering as I was in similar snow with the Expedition with my currently far more worn tires than what you are running and had no problems getting moving in 4x4 with snow up to the skid plates on an incline
But the Expie is north of 6,000lbs and has a T-Lok rear diff too.
I have had the same experience; maybe the ELD on my FX4 makes a difference.
Originally Posted By: supton
Got some snow last night; something like 12" of powder but it was packed down to 8" or so when I got out there to shovel it. Drove through it with the truck, it was skidplate-high. By the road where it piles up from the plow I stopped to look both ways, and it would not go through it (slight incline); had to take a running start at it. 4WD with traction off, of course.
Is your truck light? Just wondering as I was in similar snow with the Expedition with my currently far more worn tires than what you are running and had no problems getting moving in 4x4 with snow up to the skid plates on an incline
But the Expie is north of 6,000lbs and has a T-Lok rear diff too.
I have had the same experience; maybe the ELD on my FX4 makes a difference.
Got curious. Took out a 24" level and a tape measure, so as to eyeball grade. The spot where I stop, back up and make a 110 degree turn into my driveway runs from 2" rise to 3" rise over the 24" level. This is also the spot which I hated backing up my Jetta, with the twitchy camper; also, as a dirt driveway it has the typical bumps and imperfections.
Up by the road it's a 3" rise (where I got stuck and had to back up and get a running start). If I understand grade properly that is up around 13% grade. Would that have an impact on driving through 8" of packing snow? I would tend to think so.
Up by the road it's a 3" rise (where I got stuck and had to back up and get a running start). If I understand grade properly that is up around 13% grade. Would that have an impact on driving through 8" of packing snow? I would tend to think so.
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The new LTX M/S2's are on the truck
Under $1K out the door. Pretty happy with that considering the mileage I know I'll get out of them.
Fantastic. They are worth it just for the peace of mind that you have now when your loved ones are out in that truck...
The new LTX M/S2's are on the truck
Under $1K out the door. Pretty happy with that considering the mileage I know I'll get out of them.
Fantastic. They are worth it just for the peace of mind that you have now when your loved ones are out in that truck...
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Originally Posted By: supton
Got curious. Took out a 24" level and a tape measure, so as to eyeball grade. The spot where I stop, back up and make a 110 degree turn into my driveway runs from 2" rise to 3" rise over the 24" level. This is also the spot which I hated backing up my Jetta, with the twitchy camper; also, as a dirt driveway it has the typical bumps and imperfections.
Up by the road it's a 3" rise (where I got stuck and had to back up and get a running start). If I understand grade properly that is up around 13% grade. Would that have an impact on driving through 8" of packing snow? I would tend to think so.
It could be, but I have not had any problems on inclines steeper than that in RNP in Colorado on similar snow. Granted I was not attempting a turn like that one (nor with a heavy load), but I have had to make some 180 and 270 degree turns. I have no experience with the Toyota 4WD system, perhaps the Ford system just works in a different way?
Got curious. Took out a 24" level and a tape measure, so as to eyeball grade. The spot where I stop, back up and make a 110 degree turn into my driveway runs from 2" rise to 3" rise over the 24" level. This is also the spot which I hated backing up my Jetta, with the twitchy camper; also, as a dirt driveway it has the typical bumps and imperfections.
Up by the road it's a 3" rise (where I got stuck and had to back up and get a running start). If I understand grade properly that is up around 13% grade. Would that have an impact on driving through 8" of packing snow? I would tend to think so.
It could be, but I have not had any problems on inclines steeper than that in RNP in Colorado on similar snow. Granted I was not attempting a turn like that one (nor with a heavy load), but I have had to make some 180 and 270 degree turns. I have no experience with the Toyota 4WD system, perhaps the Ford system just works in a different way?
Sorta. I tried with trac off, ALSD on, and it seemed to limit too much. Might have had VSC still on, or maybe it was off; it just seemed too aggressive in cutting throttle and pulling brake lines. Need to play with it more in the next storm. Great on level ground, not so good elsewhere.
So, sorta like 2WD, save for one wheel up front and one in back, and with the extra drag it's a bit harder to get wheelspin--the extra drag kinda tames the throttle a bit. And, if weight pitches off one axle it goes onto the other. And it gets hard to kick the rear around.
Does yours have a center diff?
So, sorta like 2WD, save for one wheel up front and one in back, and with the extra drag it's a bit harder to get wheelspin--the extra drag kinda tames the throttle a bit. And, if weight pitches off one axle it goes onto the other. And it gets hard to kick the rear around.
Does yours have a center diff?
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: supton
Does yours have a center diff?
Center diff? I am not following that one...
I suspect he meant a center differential in an AWD setup...
Originally Posted By: supton
Does yours have a center diff?
Center diff? I am not following that one...
I suspect he meant a center differential in an AWD setup...
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: supton
Does yours have a center diff?
Center diff? I am not following that one...
I suspect he meant a center differential in an AWD setup...
Ah, in that case, no. I have two differentials--one front and one rear.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: supton
Does yours have a center diff?
Center diff? I am not following that one...
I suspect he meant a center differential in an AWD setup...
Ah, in that case, no. I have two differentials--one front and one rear.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: supton
Does yours have a center diff?
Center diff? I am not following that one...
I suspect he meant a center differential in an AWD setup...
Ah, in that case, no. I have two differentials--one front and one rear.
But the key point is that you don't have a center differential, you have a transfer case.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: supton
Does yours have a center diff?
Center diff? I am not following that one...
I suspect he meant a center differential in an AWD setup...
Ah, in that case, no. I have two differentials--one front and one rear.
But the key point is that you don't have a center differential, you have a transfer case.
A transfer case can have a diff in it, allowing front and rear driveshafts to turn at different speeds.
I had to look up Ford ELD; it appears to be an electrically driven limited slip stup which does not use the brakes to control wheelspin. Which is better than my setup which uses the brakes.
So I was not using the truck n 2wd mode, or I guess you could say that yes only two wheels would spin, one front and one rear, as opposed to a classic RWD setup where only one rear wheel spins. Yours would spin a front and both rears due to the limited slip.
I had to look up Ford ELD; it appears to be an electrically driven limited slip stup which does not use the brakes to control wheelspin. Which is better than my setup which uses the brakes.
So I was not using the truck n 2wd mode, or I guess you could say that yes only two wheels would spin, one front and one rear, as opposed to a classic RWD setup where only one rear wheel spins. Yours would spin a front and both rears due to the limited slip.
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Originally Posted By: supton
A transfer case can have a diff in it, allowing front and rear driveshafts to turn at different speeds. I had to look up Ford ELD; it appears to be an electrically driven limited slip stup which does not use the brakes to control wheelspin. Which is better than my setup which uses the brakes. So I was not using the truck n 2wd mode, or I guess you could say that yes only two wheels would spin, one front and one rear, as opposed to a classic RWD setup where only one rear wheel spins. Yours would spin a front and both rears due to the limited slip.
Right; ELD locks the rear differential so that both wheels are pulling together with no slipping (from within the differential). In 4WD mode and with ELD engaged all four of my wheels pull together. In 2WD mode only one of the rear wheels pulls (unless you engage ELD).
A transfer case can have a diff in it, allowing front and rear driveshafts to turn at different speeds. I had to look up Ford ELD; it appears to be an electrically driven limited slip stup which does not use the brakes to control wheelspin. Which is better than my setup which uses the brakes. So I was not using the truck n 2wd mode, or I guess you could say that yes only two wheels would spin, one front and one rear, as opposed to a classic RWD setup where only one rear wheel spins. Yours would spin a front and both rears due to the limited slip.
Right; ELD locks the rear differential so that both wheels are pulling together with no slipping (from within the differential). In 4WD mode and with ELD engaged all four of my wheels pull together. In 2WD mode only one of the rear wheels pulls (unless you engage ELD).
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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But the key point is that you don't have a center differential, you have a transfer case.
Correct; I guess I have never seen a 4WD set up with a center differential, but then again I have not messed around with any 4x4s other than GM or Ford in the past few years. Is this a Toyota, Honda, Nissan thing?
But the key point is that you don't have a center differential, you have a transfer case.
Correct; I guess I have never seen a 4WD set up with a center differential, but then again I have not messed around with any 4x4s other than GM or Ford in the past few years. Is this a Toyota, Honda, Nissan thing?
Its a Mercedes thing as well, the G wagon is set up with three hydraulic lockers.
In normal driving its just typical [censored] AWD where the computer uses the brakes to imitate locking and correct skids. Lexus and Ranger Rover use a similar system.
Nice thing at least on the G wagon is locking everything up gives you a true locked drive line and disables all the traction aids including ABS. Which off road is what you want...
Fords rear end seems kind of like an electronic version of this or an ARB air locker.
In normal driving its just typical [censored] AWD where the computer uses the brakes to imitate locking and correct skids. Lexus and Ranger Rover use a similar system.
Nice thing at least on the G wagon is locking everything up gives you a true locked drive line and disables all the traction aids including ABS. Which off road is what you want...
Fords rear end seems kind of like an electronic version of this or an ARB air locker.
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The new LTX M/S2's are on the truck
Under $1K out the door. Pretty happy with that considering the mileage I know I'll get out of them.
Fantastic. They are worth it just for the peace of mind that you have now when your loved ones are out in that truck...
And they certainly did that on our trip down east and back
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The new LTX M/S2's are on the truck
Under $1K out the door. Pretty happy with that considering the mileage I know I'll get out of them.
Fantastic. They are worth it just for the peace of mind that you have now when your loved ones are out in that truck...
And they certainly did that on our trip down east and back
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: supton
A transfer case can have a diff in it, allowing front and rear driveshafts to turn at different speeds. I had to look up Ford ELD; it appears to be an electrically driven limited slip stup which does not use the brakes to control wheelspin. Which is better than my setup which uses the brakes. So I was not using the truck n 2wd mode, or I guess you could say that yes only two wheels would spin, one front and one rear, as opposed to a classic RWD setup where only one rear wheel spins. Yours would spin a front and both rears due to the limited slip.
Right; ELD locks the rear differential so that both wheels are pulling together with no slipping (from within the differential). In 4WD mode and with ELD engaged all four of my wheels pull together. In 2WD mode only one of the rear wheels pulls (unless you engage ELD).
With opens in all three locations, all four tires get equal torque. It seems hard to believe, but open diffs are constant torque critters. If one wheel has more traction, the other wheel spins faster--but you have to remember, you don't get something for nothing. Those spider gears are spinning against the stuck wheel; and in order to do so, the stuck wheel is resisting--it's having force applied against it, but that force is not enough to spin it.
In a really low traction situation I bet you'd have three tires spinning, not four, unless if Ford is pulling brake lines up front to tame wheel spin also. Should still be a front open diff, unless if it too has an ELD.
Originally Posted By: supton
A transfer case can have a diff in it, allowing front and rear driveshafts to turn at different speeds. I had to look up Ford ELD; it appears to be an electrically driven limited slip stup which does not use the brakes to control wheelspin. Which is better than my setup which uses the brakes. So I was not using the truck n 2wd mode, or I guess you could say that yes only two wheels would spin, one front and one rear, as opposed to a classic RWD setup where only one rear wheel spins. Yours would spin a front and both rears due to the limited slip.
Right; ELD locks the rear differential so that both wheels are pulling together with no slipping (from within the differential). In 4WD mode and with ELD engaged all four of my wheels pull together. In 2WD mode only one of the rear wheels pulls (unless you engage ELD).
With opens in all three locations, all four tires get equal torque. It seems hard to believe, but open diffs are constant torque critters. If one wheel has more traction, the other wheel spins faster--but you have to remember, you don't get something for nothing. Those spider gears are spinning against the stuck wheel; and in order to do so, the stuck wheel is resisting--it's having force applied against it, but that force is not enough to spin it.
In a really low traction situation I bet you'd have three tires spinning, not four, unless if Ford is pulling brake lines up front to tame wheel spin also. Should still be a front open diff, unless if it too has an ELD.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But the key point is that you don't have a center differential, you have a transfer case.
Correct; I guess I have never seen a 4WD set up with a center differential, but then again I have not messed around with any 4x4s other than GM or Ford in the past few years. Is this a Toyota, Honda, Nissan thing?
A quick look shows NP242 "Selec-Trac" was some sort of Jeep transfer case, with 2H, 4H with 48/52 torque distribution, 4H locked, N and 4L locked. I saw an N249 which appears to be similar but with a viscous coupling instead of mechanical.
A friend of mine, years ago with a Bronco (second gen? the full sized one, long before EFI) had a full time 4WD setup. Looking that up, it might have been a NP203 (NP205 is part time). Here is an exploded view of an NP203:
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/NP203diagram.jpg
you can see the diff in the bottom center of the pic.
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np203.htm
Quote:
The New Process 203 was used in GM, Ford, and Dodge through the 70's behind auto and manual transmissions. They were originally a full time 4wd 'case, meaning all 4 tires receive power at all times. This was made possible through use of a differential in the back of the 203 that let the front and rear drive shafts turn at different speeds as just as a diff in an axle lets each axle shaft turn at a different speed. For off road use, the 203 had a "lock" position in which the differential was locked making the front and rear outputs spin at the same speed. Shift positions are: High, Lo, High Lock, Low Lock and Neutral.
Here is an NP205:
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np205.htm
No diff seen.
I'm pretty sure the Land Cruiser has used lockable diffs for years, otherwise, Toyota has kept with part time 4WD systems on anything that has a low range. The first gen RAV4, if in stick, was full time 4WD with an open diff that you could lock if you absolutely had to. They quickly dropped that in favor of viscous couplings instead. From what I understand today, the RAV4 actually only has two diffs, front and rear; but the rear uses clutches etc to allow variable coupling (the "transfer case" that you'd expect is just a set of gears in the transaxle, no diff, so constant speed for the driveshafts not constant torque--oddly enough, front and rear diffs use different gear ratios, as does the Ridgeline).
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But the key point is that you don't have a center differential, you have a transfer case.
Correct; I guess I have never seen a 4WD set up with a center differential, but then again I have not messed around with any 4x4s other than GM or Ford in the past few years. Is this a Toyota, Honda, Nissan thing?
A quick look shows NP242 "Selec-Trac" was some sort of Jeep transfer case, with 2H, 4H with 48/52 torque distribution, 4H locked, N and 4L locked. I saw an N249 which appears to be similar but with a viscous coupling instead of mechanical.
A friend of mine, years ago with a Bronco (second gen? the full sized one, long before EFI) had a full time 4WD setup. Looking that up, it might have been a NP203 (NP205 is part time). Here is an exploded view of an NP203:
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/NP203diagram.jpg
you can see the diff in the bottom center of the pic.
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np203.htm
Quote:
The New Process 203 was used in GM, Ford, and Dodge through the 70's behind auto and manual transmissions. They were originally a full time 4wd 'case, meaning all 4 tires receive power at all times. This was made possible through use of a differential in the back of the 203 that let the front and rear drive shafts turn at different speeds as just as a diff in an axle lets each axle shaft turn at a different speed. For off road use, the 203 had a "lock" position in which the differential was locked making the front and rear outputs spin at the same speed. Shift positions are: High, Lo, High Lock, Low Lock and Neutral.
Here is an NP205:
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np205.htm
No diff seen.
I'm pretty sure the Land Cruiser has used lockable diffs for years, otherwise, Toyota has kept with part time 4WD systems on anything that has a low range. The first gen RAV4, if in stick, was full time 4WD with an open diff that you could lock if you absolutely had to. They quickly dropped that in favor of viscous couplings instead. From what I understand today, the RAV4 actually only has two diffs, front and rear; but the rear uses clutches etc to allow variable coupling (the "transfer case" that you'd expect is just a set of gears in the transaxle, no diff, so constant speed for the driveshafts not constant torque--oddly enough, front and rear diffs use different gear ratios, as does the Ridgeline).
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Nice thing at least on the G wagon is locking everything up gives you a true locked drive line . Which off road is what you want...
I have that (no center diff) and it's driving me nuts. Anything over half-turn on the steering wheel and gobs of binding. My driveway requires two or three 90 degree turns, at full steering lock; you'd think snow and ice would allow for the required slippage. Nope.
It's my first part time system, and while I knew not to use it on pavement I didn't realize how much it'd bug me.
Nice thing at least on the G wagon is locking everything up gives you a true locked drive line . Which off road is what you want...
I have that (no center diff) and it's driving me nuts. Anything over half-turn on the steering wheel and gobs of binding. My driveway requires two or three 90 degree turns, at full steering lock; you'd think snow and ice would allow for the required slippage. Nope.
It's my first part time system, and while I knew not to use it on pavement I didn't realize how much it'd bug me.
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