Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Shannow,
It happened long before my time but at some point in history (80s maybe??) Magnesium got itself a bad reputation. I heard various stories about how it caused bore glazing on the Ford Tornado test (maybe where the hard deposits thing originated?), how it was sensitive to water, how it was useless in HDDO and how the Japanese totally banned its use in engine oil.
My involvement with Mg started when I was desperately in need of 'cheap stuff'. It became apparent that on an equal TBN in finished oil basis, 400 TBN Mg was cheaper than 300 TBN Ca so I just went for it! It probably helped that I wasn't carrying all that baggage that put so many of my old codger colleagues off from using Mg.
The thing was, the more I used it, the more it impressed me. And believe me, I did look hard for bore glazing and it's sensitivity to water but there was just nothing untoward to see. Regarding its use in HDDO, all I can say is I got some of my best ever diesel test passes with Mg. I also don't recall one single field problem arising from the billions of litres of Mg-based oil that I ushered into the world.
With LSPI upon us, it may be that Magnesium makes something of a comeback in which case, I for one will be happy...
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!
For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.
Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.
Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.
Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!
Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.
I appreciate posts that offer an education.
Thanks
Shannow,
It happened long before my time but at some point in history (80s maybe??) Magnesium got itself a bad reputation. I heard various stories about how it caused bore glazing on the Ford Tornado test (maybe where the hard deposits thing originated?), how it was sensitive to water, how it was useless in HDDO and how the Japanese totally banned its use in engine oil.
My involvement with Mg started when I was desperately in need of 'cheap stuff'. It became apparent that on an equal TBN in finished oil basis, 400 TBN Mg was cheaper than 300 TBN Ca so I just went for it! It probably helped that I wasn't carrying all that baggage that put so many of my old codger colleagues off from using Mg.
The thing was, the more I used it, the more it impressed me. And believe me, I did look hard for bore glazing and it's sensitivity to water but there was just nothing untoward to see. Regarding its use in HDDO, all I can say is I got some of my best ever diesel test passes with Mg. I also don't recall one single field problem arising from the billions of litres of Mg-based oil that I ushered into the world.
With LSPI upon us, it may be that Magnesium makes something of a comeback in which case, I for one will be happy...
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!
For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.
Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.
Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.
Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!
Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.
I appreciate posts that offer an education.
Thanks
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.
Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?
Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.
Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?
Thanks
EMD engines made up to 2014 were two stroke and used "4 stroke" oil.
EMD as in train engines manufactured in Lyon, IL and which produces 3,000-6,000 hp?
OK...but I was thinking of 2-stroke engines a wee bit smaller
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.
Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?
Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.
Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?
Thanks
EMD engines made up to 2014 were two stroke and used "4 stroke" oil.
EMD as in train engines manufactured in Lyon, IL and which produces 3,000-6,000 hp?
OK...but I was thinking of 2-stroke engines a wee bit smaller
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
BigJ_16's 2nd post on the previous page mentioned EMD 2-stroke engines (710X16 the last model) using 4-stroke engine oil.
Large 2-stroke cape class ship engines can also be included, but they split the cylinder oil from the crank case oil & top end oil.
The EMDs, are typically found in locomotives, fishing boats & gen-sets, last 10s of thousands of hours on zinc free engine oil.
Does the zinc get used up by electrolysis?
BigJ_16's 2nd post on the previous page mentioned EMD 2-stroke engines (710X16 the last model) using 4-stroke engine oil.
Large 2-stroke cape class ship engines can also be included, but they split the cylinder oil from the crank case oil & top end oil.
The EMDs, are typically found in locomotives, fishing boats & gen-sets, last 10s of thousands of hours on zinc free engine oil.
Does the zinc get used up by electrolysis?
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
BigJ_16's 2nd post on the previous page mentioned EMD 2-stroke engines (710X16 the last model) using 4-stroke engine oil.
Large 2-stroke cape class ship engines can also be included, but they split the cylinder oil from the crank case oil & top end oil.
The EMDs, are typically found in locomotives, fishing boats & gen-sets, last 10s of thousands of hours on zinc free engine oil.
Does the zinc get used up by electrolysis?
Too much time had passed to edit.
I mean in marine applications is zinc in motor oil affected by galvanic corrosion.
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
BigJ_16's 2nd post on the previous page mentioned EMD 2-stroke engines (710X16 the last model) using 4-stroke engine oil.
Large 2-stroke cape class ship engines can also be included, but they split the cylinder oil from the crank case oil & top end oil.
The EMDs, are typically found in locomotives, fishing boats & gen-sets, last 10s of thousands of hours on zinc free engine oil.
Does the zinc get used up by electrolysis?
Too much time had passed to edit.
I mean in marine applications is zinc in motor oil affected by galvanic corrosion.
The best explanation for locomotive engine oil I found was here www.swri.org
EMD is owned by Caterpillar www.progressiverail.com
GE locomotives, Erie PA. www.getransportation.com
Westinghouse Air Brake, now owns MK locomotive rebuilding in Boise Idaho www.wabtec.com
edit; almost forgot www.bombardier.com
EMD is owned by Caterpillar www.progressiverail.com
GE locomotives, Erie PA. www.getransportation.com
Westinghouse Air Brake, now owns MK locomotive rebuilding in Boise Idaho www.wabtec.com
edit; almost forgot www.bombardier.com
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