Mercedes, What's the Deal ??

[Leo99]

I bought my Camry with 0%, no money down. Came out to almost $500 a month. I get a letter every month from my Toyota dealer that I can trade in my car and buy another Camry for only $440 a month. Haven't done the math but it seems I'd be better off leasing than having a perpetual car loan. Have one payment to go on my Camry and then she's all mine. I hardly drive anymore due to the virus.

 

[Astro14]

I bought my Camry with 0%, no money down. Came out to almost $500 a month. I get a letter every month from my Toyota dealer that I can trade in my car and buy another Camry for only $440 a month. Haven't done the math but it seems I'd be better off leasing than having a perpetual car loan. Have one payment to go on my Camry and then she's all mine. I hardly drive anymore due to the virus.

I’m glad that worked for you. I don’t like car payments either. I’ve paid cash for most of mine, taken out a few loans, and don’t have a car payment right now.

I’ll drive the car until the end of its life. Works for me. Keeps my total cost of ownership down. All good.

However, it’s important to understand the impact of taxes, and cash flow on the cost. I pay with net dollars, after tax. In my bracket, I’ve got to earn nearly $1,000 to come up with $500.

However, in the example I cited, my neighbor who leases through his business, he pays much less per month than you did, in net to net cash flow, because he’s got insurance and maintenance in that lease, and he’s driving an $85,000 Mercedes. His lease costs his company less than a hypothetical $500/month car payment.

And he drives a brand new Mercedes, and gets a new one every couple of years.

The fact that those payments will continue are irrelevant, because he’s paying through business cash flow, and not paying income taxes on the money, either corporate, or personal, so his company is paying less, net, than your Camry. As long as his company has cash flow, and it will, he gets a sweet ride.

So does his wife.

For less than your Camry payment. Much less because of maintenance and insurance.

If things depreciate rapidly, and particularly if they have high risk of unanticipated costs, leasing can make sense. If you’re using pre-tax company money, then it really makes sense.

Don’t be so quick to dismiss leasing. I promise you that when my neighbor negotiated his lease, he got a sweet deal. It’s what he does. His 8 figure net worth proves it.

 

[Nick1994]

I will say, this thread (and the other one) had me rethinking vehicle choices earlier this week. It was the first time in 4 months that I hit the highway--and highway speeds--and I just don't remember my car handling things awfully! Made me long for my departed Jetta--that was a real highway cruiser--I can only imagine what a newer car would be like. Alas, I cannot justify changing up my fleet right now, and if/when covidation ends, I'll be right back to looking for the cheapest cost per mile.

supton, I've learned that you don't have to have a German car to have a good highway cruiser. edyvw is a bit of a purist and seems to think it has to be European to drive nicely.

I don't drive my Camry much, but after I do, even when I'd hop back in my Sonata (when I had it), it was such an upgrade. So big and comfortable inside, and it was an awesome highway cruiser.

 

[Leo99]

I’m glad that worked for you. I don’t like car payments either. I’ve paid cash for most of mine, taken out a few loans, and don’t have a car payment right now.

I’ll drive the car until the end of its life. Works for me. Keeps my total cost of ownership down. All good.

However, it’s important to understand the impact of taxes, and cash flow on the cost. I pay with net dollars, after tax. In my bracket, I’ve got to earn nearly $1,000 to come up with $500.

However, in the example I cited, my neighbor who leases through his business, he pays much less per month than you did, in net to net cash flow, because he’s got insurance and maintenance in that lease, and he’s driving an $85,000 Mercedes. His lease costs his company less than a hypothetical $500/month car payment.

And he drives a brand new Mercedes, and gets a new one every couple of years.

The fact that those payments will continue are irrelevant, because he’s paying through business cash flow, and not paying income taxes on the money, either corporate, or personal, so his company is paying less, net, than your Camry. As long as his company has cash flow, and it will, he gets a sweet ride.

So does his wife.

For less than your Camry payment. Much less because of maintenance and insurance.

If things depreciate rapidly, and particularly if they have high risk of unanticipated costs, leasing can make sense. If you’re using pre-tax company money, then it really makes sense.

Don’t be so quick to dismiss leasing. I promise you that when my neighbor negotiated his lease, he got a sweet deal. It’s what he does. His 8 figure net worth proves it.

I didn't dismiss leasing. I wrote that I'd be better off leasing than having perpetual car payment.

 

[JHZR2]

Mercedes has parts available for every car they’ve ever built. No other manufacture has that kind of support.

I can get every single part for the 1975 450SL I’m helping a friend with. Every part. Toyota, and lots of others, start dropping production of replacement parts about 10 years after production.

Good luck going to any other marque dealer and asking the parts guys for parts on a 45 year old car. Mercedes can even cut you a key for that car, based on their records.

Great point. This is starting to change, even semi-common parts for ubiquitous cars like the w123, are starting to have items “NLA”. Often either a foreign manufacturer has something, or someone reverse engineers. While I’m not generally a fan, Uro parts is doing this for a lot of stuff.
MB has also stopped offering worldwide unconditional roadside service. Unless you’ve spent a decent amount at the dealer in recent memory, you may not be eligible.

But that said, it’s still all head and shoulders over anything else. Keys are a great example. Most places won’t even cut steel keys, MB can make a new one in short notice for a 40yo vin.

 

[Astro14]

I didn't dismiss leasing. I wrote that I'd be better off leasing than having perpetual car payment.

I think we are in a similar position. I’m a buy and hold kind of guy. Pay cash when I can. Do my own maintenance. Keep cars a long time. Not having a payment keeps my total cost of ownership down. My approach is enabled by my ability to do my own maintenance. If I lost that, I would seriously consider leasing.

 

[JHZR2]

I don't drive my Camry much, but after I do, even when I'd hop back in my Sonata (when I had it), it was such an upgrade. So big and comfortable inside, and it was an awesome highway cruiser.

I can’t see that a sonata vs a Camry is that different in terms of design or build that it would be an upgrade, but to each their own. I’ve never been able to stand the Camry much - their design appearance heyday was mid-late 90s, and they are too much like a couch to me. Maybe the latest ones are better. I don’t have enough seat time in a sonata, but I do like my accord.

For routine interstate use, my accord is a fine highway cruiser. It’s spacious and comfortable and quiet. And has lots of modern capability upgrades over, say, my 1982 300CD. It is far more efficient than any old IDI diesel, and even almost newer ones; certainly around town. But with a refreshed suspension and new window and door seals, I’ll still take my 300CD, even if “way underpowered” by some folks’ standards.

My SD is a different beast. Great to drive, quiet, huge, comfortable. But almost too large for me personally. If we need cargo space we will take the minivan which will haul people and stuff infinitely better than any sedan from a utilitarian perspective. But load the 350SD up and cruise down the road, and it sure is a great drive.

 

[Nick1994]

I can’t see that a sonata vs a Camry is that different in terms of design or build that it would be an upgrade, but to each their own. I’ve never been able to stand the Camry much - their design appearance heyday was mid-late 90s, and they are too much like a couch to me. Maybe the latest ones are better. I don’t have enough seat time in a sonata, but I do like my accord.

For routine interstate use, my accord is a fine highway cruiser. It’s spacious and comfortable and quiet. And has lots of modern capability upgrades over, say, my 1982 300CD. It is far more efficient than any old IDI diesel, and even almost newer ones; certainly around town. But with a refreshed suspension and new window and door seals, I’ll still take my 300CD, even if “way underpowered” by some folks’ standards.

My SD is a different beast. Great to drive, quiet, huge, comfortable. But almost too large for me personally. If we need cargo space we will take the minivan which will haul people and stuff infinitely better than any sedan from a utilitarian perspective. But load the 350SD up and cruise down the road, and it sure is a great drive.

I didn't mean it like the Sonata is better than the Camry, but more along the lines of the evolution of cars over time. My 2000 Camry is small, cramped, the seats aren't that great, etc. while my 15' Sonata had a ton of room, the seats were awesome (I did 700 miles in one day last summer driving it).

Although I will add that I've sat in a 2017 Camry, and it was not near as roomy or comfortable as the Sonata.

 

[JHZR2]

My 2nd gen prius works quite well with an $8 ELM327 dongle, $5 Torque Pro, and Prius-specific PIDs that "fandom" reverse-engineered.

Tires are $34, oil filters $1.50. It takes 3.5 quarts of generic 5w20-10w30.

Benz is coasting on their name recognition. Many companies do this, it's part of the rise and fall of brand equity. MBZ seems to have started when they moved the star to inside the grill, and increased its size to dinner-plate proportions. Then, no kidding, they jumped the shark and made them start glowing at night!

You can spot quality by finding a 10-year old model and seeing how yellow its headlight plastic has become. I've seen some Mercs that look as bad as Kias. The "Guide" lights in my 95 Saturn were great 19 years later.

sigh, unfortunately this is too true.

I am absolutely NOT a fan of the silly star in the grill design on all the cars.

 

[JHZR2]

I didn't mean it like the Sonata is better than the Camry, but more along the lines of the evolution of cars over time. My 2000 Camry is small, cramped, the seats aren't that great, etc. while my 15' Sonata had a ton of room, the seats were awesome (I did 700 miles in one day last summer driving it).

Although I will add that I've sat in a 2017 Camry, and it was not near as roomy or comfortable as the Sonata.

Very true. Most all cars are evolving to larger forms of themselves. Whether it is due to the obesity epidemic in the USA, or the “continuous improvement” process where everything needs to be a little bigger and a little better each time, I don’t know. But car improvements in so many ways in the last decade or so have been quite impressive.

That’s not to say that everyone likes them all, or that they’re cheap to keep up...

 

[supton]

I prefer my '99 over my '11 Camry. Just better all around, even though the '11 is stick and has much more umph. I had been thinking about going to CUV but after getting one, it just feels kinda weird. Like you have to step up into it, yet you're not actually up--it's weird--maybe it's because it's a Honda, I've really taken a dislike to them. First time I went to step into it, I was looking for the hand-hold that I use to get into my truck.

I digress. The '11 Camry is a better highway hauler. The '99 just feels sketchy at extra legal speeds. Might be a wear issue.

Leasing. It's weird, it just dawned on me that at the moment I could sorta make a case to lease--all my adult life I've driven too much, but now with WFH I could keep the miles down. Of course it makes zero sense as even a cheap lease would cost more than a repair or three. Anyhow. Unless if I had a dramatic increase in income I don't see that happening, not as someone who couldn't write it off--but I could see how many would prefer that option for a number of reasons.

 

[stevestroke08]

GX470 which I used had exactly same buttons, as my Land Cruiser does.
Lexus is wanna be Mercedes. It is car for people who want some plush ride. As Astro said, people who want good whiskey, but do not mind being blended.

Agree 100%. We have owned 3 Mercedes suvs and an Audi Q5 and I have done all of my own maintenance and never had any issues. We looked at and text drove a 2016 Lexus RX350 and it rode good but like my wife said "this is the most boring car I have ever driven". We both like the way the Mercedes GLC class suvs handle and they look really good. We bought a new 2020 AMG GLC43 and we love it. The German cars / suvs to us have always been more of a drivers car that have some pep in their step and handle pretty well.

 

[billpace1956]

Sort of. No real AMG models. Nothing close to the V-12. No active suspension.

But it’s more than that

Mercedes has parts available for every car they’ve ever built. No other manufacture has that kind of support.

I can get every single part for the 1975 450SL I’m helping a friend with. Every part. Toyota, and lots of others, start dropping production of replacement parts about 10 years after production.

Good luck going to any other marque dealer and asking the parts guys for parts on a 45 year old car. Mercedes can even cut you a key for that car, based on their records.

If you don’t like Mercedes, that’s fine, you’ve probably been exposed to the hacked on examples that abound. A properly maintained Mercedes is a great car.

You don’t need a single malt Scotch to get inebriated. For those who never had a good Scotch, and who are looking only for alcohol content, the cost of the Scotch may seem “not worth it”. For those folks, I’d suggest any cheap bourbon.

So it is with cars. If you can’t see the performance, engineering, or driving differences of a more expensive car that has great engineering behind it, best you stick with the cheap stuff.

You’ll be happier.

Well, you say that Mercedes has parts available for every car they've ever built? Really? NOT TRUE! I have a 1995 E300d that needed a wiring harness and looked on the internet and found none! I went to the dealer in Tucson and they told me the wiring harness was no longer available! My Mechanic said he will just make one and install it himself. There were wiring harness for the gasoline cars but NOT the diesel model. My mechanic used to tell me the same thing about getting parts for Mercedes. Boy, was he surprised when they told us that part is no longer available!! He started working on Mercedes in 1977 and was always told that. He started working at a Mercedes dealer in Los Angeles, CA. I have 4 Mercedes cars. 3 diesels and 1 gas car. Really super cars no doubt. But the parts always being available, NOT TRUE!

 

[CarbonSteel]

I bought a 2018 AMG GLC43 Coupe and a 2018 C300 a few weeks apart in the spring of 2018. The Rubicon took the AMG's place a year ago and the C300 will go bye bye when the lease is over.

Too much maintenance--tires wearing out at 13K miles, alignment needed every 6 months, brakes gone at 23K. The cheapest Ford/Chevy/Dodge on the planet does not need that much maintenance.

No more German cars will show up in my stable--they are not THAT great.

 

[Silver]

This could turn into a deep discussion about materialism, ego, herd mentality and a whole host of mental dysfunctions.

 

[Trav]

Well, you say that Mercedes has parts available for every car they've ever built? Really? NOT TRUE! I have a 1995 E300d that needed a wiring harness and looked on the internet and found none! I went to the dealer in Tucson and they told me the wiring harness was no longer available! My Mechanic said he will just make one and install it himself. There were wiring harness for the gasoline cars but NOT the diesel model. My mechanic used to tell me the same thing about getting parts for Mercedes. Boy, was he surprised when they told us that part is no longer available!! He started working on Mercedes in 1977 and was always told that. He started working at a Mercedes dealer in Los Angeles, CA. I have 4 Mercedes cars. 3 diesels and 1 gas car. Really super cars no doubt. But the parts always being available, NOT TRUE!

There is an arrangement between MB Germany where the parts are produced and MB USA. A friend of mine had a Euro spec E car sold in Holland with Euro cloth interior and shipped privately to the USA. It needed OE seat covers (it was a recovered theft) MB USA said not available but in Germany they were in stock but would not sell them to me as the car had no domestic sale history or papers to prove it was in Germany.

We did a wink and nod job with another vin and I got the parts. They had a small piece of carpet for the center console on my 1980 200D in stock at the original price it was listed at in 1980. You can anything you need or want it just the road to getting it may be a bit twisted.
The wiring harness for your MB may not be available as US cars use a different harness and MB USA decided to discontinue it but there is more ways to skin a cat.

 

[billpace1956]

There is an arrangement between MB Germany where the parts are produced and MB USA. A friend of mine had a Euro spec E car sold in Holland with Euro cloth interior and shipped privately to the USA. It needed OE seat covers (it was a recovered theft) MB USA said not available but in Germany they were in stock but would not sell them to me as the car had no domestic sale history or papers to prove it was in Germany.

We did a wink and nod job with another vin and I got the parts. They had a small piece of carpet for the center console on my 1980 200D in stock at the original price it was listed at in 1980. You can anything you need or want it just the road to getting it may be a bit twisted.
The wiring harness for your MB may not be available as US cars use a different harness and MB USA decided to discontinue it but there is more ways to skin a cat.
[/QMaybe so on

There is an arrangement between MB Germany where the parts are produced and MB USA. A friend of mine had a Euro spec E car sold in Holland with Euro cloth interior and shipped privately to the USA. It needed OE seat covers (it was a recovered theft) MB USA said not available but in Germany they were in stock but would not sell them to me as the car had no domestic sale history or papers to prove it was in Germany.

We did a wink and nod job with another vin and I got the parts. They had a small piece of carpet for the center console on my 1980 200D in stock at the original price it was listed at in 1980. You can anything you need or want it just the road to getting it may be a bit twisted.
The wiring harness for your MB may not be available as US cars use a different harness and MB USA decided to discontinue it but there is more ways to skin a cat.

 

[billpace1956]

Maybe so on the wink and nod. But the parts guys at the Mercedes dealer here in Tucson were not going there at all. They said to try Mercedes classic in Irving Ca. I tried calling them but they were too busy to answer the phone! They said to email them. I thought they were a dead end due to the low production of the car. Worldwide there was 23,116 sedans and 9071 wagons made with that engine. A very low production model to say the least. 606.910. The 1996 and 1997 e300d's used the 606.912 engine. Not the same. I have yet to find someone that would rebuild the whole engine. So, I found this guy in New York that would make the wiring harness. He wanted $2500 dollars. That did not include installing the harness or any of the new parts the car would need that would be needed for the install of the new wiring harness. My mechanic remade the wiring harness along with fixing the tensioner that went bad at the same time as the wiring harness started to fail and also replaced both headlights on that had large stone cracks in them and all of the related new parts that had to go on the car when installing the wiring harness for $2600 dollars. Not a bad deal all in all. We really searched and searched for this wiring harness. It took 17 months to get everything resolved. It is my favorite car of my life. Next is the rod bearings to be replaced. Then a new ac compressor then a new spring kit for the rear end and then we will get the cruise control resolved. The car gets over 40 miles per gallon at 65 miles per hour without the ac on. A great car that has 168,546 miles on it. I'll take my time getting these items fixed over the next 6 to 8 months. These parts can be found at very good prices. In the next year I will also be getting a new ignition as the car is over 25 years old and at some time in the near future it will need one. My other 3 Mercedes have all needed an ignition in the last 3 years. Anyway, I do think that Mercedes made a great car back in the day and they still run very well even today! On a side note, I asked the mobil1 website about what oil to run in my cars and they said to run mobil1 0w-40 oil in ALL of my Mercedes cars which include a 1983 240d ( 4 speed manual) a 1984 300SD and also a 1988 300e gas car. I thought that was strange as the 2 diesel cars from the 1980's run very well with the 15w-40 Delvac. I then asked the Mercedes website and they said the same thing!! I even told the Mercedes folks that the owners manual said I could use the 15w-40 and they still said no on the 15w-40 and to use the 0w-40. I just thought that that oil was just a tad too thin.

 

[Trav]

I ran Castrol 0w30 A3/B4 (German Castrol) in my 200D and drove it every weekend 600km each way foot through the floor all the way.
With only 57HP the 15w40 really robbed the power, the engine ran better and had no issues whatsoever on the 0w30 so I can see the 0w40 recommendation.

 

[billpace1956]

I ran Castrol 0w30 A3/B4 (German Castrol) in my 200D and drove it every weekend 600km each way foot through the floor all the way.
With only 57HP the 15w40 really robbed the power, the engine ran better and had no issues whatsoever on the 0w30 so I can see the 0w40 recommendation.

Well, if someone that has your skill and experience says the 0w-40 is ok to use I'll give the 0w-40 a go when my stash of 15w-40 is all used up. Thank you for the heads up!