Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please.

[CleverUserName]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine that’s engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, it’s an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I don’t know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.

So that is why FCA said it is OK to use C3 5W40, OR A3/B3 B4 5W40 OR CJ-4 5W40?
Autopsies performed by dealer?
This is becoming interesting, keep going.


The new Ecodiesel spec is the same as Cummins CES 20081. There is no C3 oil, 5w40 or otherwise that’s meets that specification. There all CJ/CK low ash type HDEOs.
http://www.lubritecinc.com/PDF/CES20081B.pdf

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine that’s engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, it’s an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I don’t know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.

So that is why FCA said it is OK to use C3 5W40, OR A3/B3 B4 5W40 OR CJ-4 5W40?
Autopsies performed by dealer?
This is becoming interesting, keep going.


The new Ecodiesel spec is the same as Cummins CES 20081. There is no C3 oil, 5w40 or otherwise that’s meets that specification. There all CJ/CK low ash type HDEOs.
http://www.lubritecinc.com/PDF/CES20081B.pdf

What this document has to do with 3.0 engine? There are oils on this list I would not touch with a pole.

 

[CleverUserName]

The new spec for the VM L630 is FCA MS-10902 and Cummins CES 20081 in 5w40. That list is CES 20081. You need to now use a CJ/CK HDEO in 5w40 if you are unfortunate enough to own an Ecodiesel.

You are incorrect. There are no C3 oils on that list, in 5w40 or otherwise. A C3 oil would not meet the new specification.

 

[Garak]

It's interesting to note that I can count four E6 5w-30 examples there right off the top of my head.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
The new spec for the VM L630 is FCA MS-10902 and Cummins CES 20081 in 5w40. That list is CES 20081. You need to now use a CJ/CK HDEO in 5w40 if you are unfortunate enough to own an Ecodiesel.

You are incorrect. There are no C3 oils on that list, in 5w40 or otherwise. A C3 oil would not meet the new specification.




On that list you posted you have Castrol GTX 15W40 and other similar oils. So do you fallow list? Or you are weeding out 5W40 oils? Actually yeah, FCA said ACEA A3/B4 not C3. So it is not only CJ/CK.
By the way, that engine is still recommended for use with C3 oils in Europe.
Again, only reason why FCA is not recommending C3 5W40 is because SOPUS does not have 5W40 C3 on NA market.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
It's interesting to note that I can count four E6 5w-30 examples there right off the top of my head.

What is interesting that those engines make hundreds of thousands of miles in Europe on C3 5W30 oils.
I had Lancia Lybra 2.4JTD that did some 350k miles on C3 oils. But, it must be dream because someone did two UOA of VW TDI and Chevrolet Duramax.
I am actually waiting my M57 n BMW to disintegrate because of C3 oil

 

[Garak]

Well, I'm not sure what FCA had going on there, but something clearly didn't work. I guess we'll have to see how Ford and GM manage with their smaller diesels in North America. GM seems to be doing okay so far, but Ford gets a little antsy about diesel oil specs, and FCA had some sort of a mess happening.

You need a spreadsheet to keep track of Chrysler oil specifications. Between ILSAC, Benz, Cummins, and Fiat, they need a company with the resources of Shell to keep a dealership stocked.

 

[Garak]

Oh, and I don't have any TSBs handy, but I thought that when this happened, Chrysler said to use A3/B4 or CJ-4 and/or E7, E9 as available, but I could very well be mistaken.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, I'm not sure what FCA had going on there, but something clearly didn't work. I guess we'll have to see how Ford and GM manage with their smaller diesels in North America. GM seems to be doing okay so far, but Ford gets a little antsy about diesel oil specs, and FCA had some sort of a mess happening.

You need a spreadsheet to keep track of Chrysler oil specifications. Between ILSAC, Benz, Cummins, and Fiat, they need a company with the resources of Shell to keep a dealership stocked.

Ford in Europe also had mess with their TDCI engine. They I think used C3, then moved to C2 to bump up fuel economy. Who knows.
I think GM is using Opel engine here. Opel was never big name in diesels in Europe, they had some really nasty failures. But they improved last 15 years. Now Opel is getting PSA diesels which are like ten light years ahead of Opel/GM 4-cyl engines.

 

[Garak]

The smaller diesels GM is using call for the dexos2 (C3 based) ones, including the ones for the small trucks, the small Duramaxes. Of course, the larger ones are sticking to CJ-4/CK-4 and so forth.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
The smaller diesels GM is using call for the dexos2 (C3 based) ones, including the ones for the small trucks, the small Duramaxes. Of course, the larger ones are sticking to CJ-4/CK-4 and so forth.

Yeah I know what they use. But generally, those 2.0ltr engines are mediocre at best. They first saw light of day in 1998 in Opel Vectra B. People were running away from those cars like they have a plague. There is no oil that could fix cost saving measures GM implemented on those engines.

 

[CleverUserName]

Originally Posted By: Garak
The smaller diesels GM is using call for the dexos2 (C3 based) ones, including the ones for the small trucks, the small Duramaxes. Of course, the larger ones are sticking to CJ-4/CK-4 and so forth.


I’m going to get one of the new Chevy Cruz diesels after my VW buyback is completed this summer. On paper, the 1.6 ecotec is impressive.ive never seen any Diesel engine that has VVT, so it does appear to be very sophisticated. It’s rated at nearly the same HP/TQ as my 2.0 CR TDI was with 20% less displacement. The only thing I don’t like about it is the start/stop feature that comes on the automatic version which can’t be turned off.

I will not be using Dexos 2 in that car either. Delvac or BioSyn CJ-4 after draining the FF.

 

[chrisri]

Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
I’m going to get one of the new Chevy Cruz diesels after my VW buyback is completed this summer. On paper, the 1.6 ecotec is impressive.ive never seen any Diesel engine that has VVT, so it does appear to be very sophisticated. It’s rated at nearly the same HP/TQ as my 2.0 CR TDI was with 20% less displacement. The only thing I don’t like about it is the start/stop feature that comes on the automatic version which can’t be turned off.

I will not be using Dexos 2 in that car either. Delvac or BioSyn CJ-4 after draining the FF.


Is that an approved oil per the OM?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
I’m going to get one of the new Chevy Cruz diesels after my VW buyback is completed this summer. On paper, the 1.6 ecotec is impressive.ive never seen any Diesel engine that has VVT, so it does appear to be very sophisticated. It’s rated at nearly the same HP/TQ as my 2.0 CR TDI was with 20% less displacement. The only thing I don’t like about it is the start/stop feature that comes on the automatic version which can’t be turned off.

I will not be using Dexos 2 in that car either. Delvac or BioSyn CJ-4 after draining the FF.


Is that an approved oil per the OM?

No, but he did do two UOA.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.

 

[CleverUserName]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Oh, and I don't have any TSBs handy, but I thought that when this happened, Chrysler said to use A3/B4 or CJ-4 and/or E7, E9 as available, but I could very well be mistaken.


The original link is dead, but this does have a quote from it:

Quote:
We recommend you use a 5W‐40 syntheƟc engine oil… that meets FCA Material Stand‐
ard MS‐10902 and the API CJ‐4 category is required.
(https://www.mopar.com/ramtrucks/en‐us/care/knowledge‐center.html )


https://hd.valvoline.com/sites/default/files/bulletins/valvoline_tib_-_ram_jeep_3.0l_ecodiesel.pdf

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


I believe diesel in EU is higher quality than most of what's available in USA, except for CA. Cetane value is higher for sure than the other 49 states. CA has statewide mandated very high quality D#2 for Air Quality.

Ecodiesel long blocks and crate motors come from Italy. FCA has not "rebuilt" any of these motors to my knowledge. So most likely all made in the same factory(s).

1500 series trucks are popular for pulling travel trailers and toy haulers up to 9-10+K lbs. Not sure how popular camping or motorsports is in EU but that's what we do here.
Definitely different fuels, emissions equipment, tuning, and duty cycles between the two applications.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

No, but he did do two UOA.


Yes I did two UOAs and also there is another series of UOAs from a 2014 Chevy Cruze using Amsoil Low Saps and Biosyn CJ-4 posted on here somewhere. They had similar wear numbers, however the Biosyn handled water and fuel contamination much better and there was no bearing wear, unlike the Amsoil which did have some soft metals detected in the UOA. Dealing with oil contamination seems to be one of the major strengths of the Biosyn formula.

Neither the Amsoil or the Biosyn are Dexos 2 certified. Just like Delvac ESP.

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.


http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lh7/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Medium_Diesel_engine

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.

2.0 Opel version went through same modifications as the 2.0 Multijet for meeting Euro 5 emission standard. Bore was enlarged for 1mm, third generation common rail with higher pressure, new turbo/manifold, new DPF- now next to the engine.
GM still have engine research center in Turin, and rights to use and further develop 2.0 diesel engine. It was not part of a deal with PSA.
1.6 cdti is all alloy Opel design, has nothing in common with 1.6 jtdm, except the Combo, which is a rebaged Doblo using mjet.
1.3 cdti is FPT engine.

Those engines are/were used in everything GM had connection with, SAABs, Suzukis, Opels.
Fiat used 1.8 and 2.2 ecotec engines in Croma, 2.2 and 3.2 Holden blocks were used for Alfa Romeo- heavily modified with completely new cylinder heads.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName

Originally Posted By: edyvw

No, but he did do two UOA.


Yes I did two UOAs and also there is another series of UOAs from a 2014 Chevy Cruze using Amsoil Low Saps and Biosyn CJ-4 posted on here somewhere. They had similar wear numbers, however the Biosyn handled water and fuel contamination much better and there was no bearing wear, unlike the Amsoil which did have some soft metals detected in the UOA. Dealing with oil contamination seems to be one of the major strengths of the Biosyn formula.

Neither the Amsoil or the Biosyn are Dexos 2 certified. Just like Delvac ESP.


I just can’t understand why you’d throw away a manufacturer’s warranty because you have such an unwarranted distaste for C3 oils. Why risk paying for a DPF or something like that out of pocket? Those are expensive parts.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Interesting topic. I've noticed few peculiarities.

Someone mentioned that a C3 oil in a SAE 5w30 grade will not offer same level of protection as a C3 5w40. That can't be right. Both oils meet the same spec, slight difference is in kinematic viscosity, purely cosmetic.

Someone mentioned that a 3.0 FPT built diesel does not exhibit same failures in EU- which is true, at least to my knowing. Same oil was specified on both markets.

There could be that either
Fuel in US and EU isn't same ULSF
Engines are not built in same factory/to the same standards/specifications
Trucks are not used in the same manner-seriously doubt that, and even so that is not an excuse.
Engine mapping for NA (to meet different emissions) is culprit for oil dilution with fuel- i would say engine have a weak bottom by design, and oil dilution isn't helping.

As for Opel diesels, all recent engines are FPT (Fiat Powertrain) derivatives, the JTD/Multijet, only 3.0 and 1.7 are Isuzu. 1.9 CDTI 8v/16v is identical to the Multijet. 2.0 is slightly different but still the same general design. Not sure for the 1.6, probably short stroke 2.0. All will do lot of kilometers on C3/Dexos2 oils.


Wait, OPEL used 2.0 multijet later in Insignia? I know they used 1.9CDTI. 2.0 and 1.6 if not directly sourced from FCA it is not derivative. OPEL/GM had some deal with FIAT regarding swapping engines in similar manner like with BMW when GM gave six speed auto tranny for 2.5 inline six diesel, but GM/OPEL never had any rights to continue development.

2.0 Opel version went through same modifications as the 2.0 Multijet for meeting Euro 5 emission standard. Bore was enlarged for 1mm, third generation common rail with higher pressure, new turbo/manifold, new DPF- now next to the engine.
GM still have engine research center in Turin, and rights to use and further develop 2.0 diesel engine. It was not part of a deal with PSA.
1.6 cdti is all alloy Opel design, has nothing in common with 1.6 jtdm, except the Combo, which is a rebaged Doblo using mjet.
1.3 cdti is FPT engine.

Those engines are/were used in everything GM had connection with, SAABs, Suzukis, Opels.
Fiat used 1.8 and 2.2 ecotec engines in Croma, 2.2 and 3.2 Holden blocks were used for Alfa Romeo- heavily modified with completely new cylinder heads.

OK I know all that when it comes to engine swap.
My question was that after GM and FIAT parted ways, whether GM kept modifying engines? or had to go with its own design.