Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines?

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Originally Posted By: edyvw

They are, if you maintain them properly.


Yea...but "avarage Joe" at least where I and you are comming from still buy diesel cars for short tripping or for 15-20kkms/year...

So your IF in your sentence is BIG one
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Funny that I have friend with exactly the same thinking...and he is bosnian too
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Generally most are reliable and low maintenance. Some German diesels from 2005-2010 era are pain in the arse. Notably the VAG, but there are other too. Old story..
 
Yes yes "pre DPF" era diesels...possibly those without piezzo injectors...

But they are 10+++ years old and are becoming rearity on EU roads

I think that Edo forgot that we are not in 80's anymore
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Mine is 19 years old, still clatering strongly
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I have to admit, it belongs to another era, veryyyy slow under 2500rpm...then just torquy and noisy, but that's it. Not powerful, not so much economical compared to current standards (between 5,5 and 8L/100Km, depending on how hard you push it), but seems bulletproof for now..I'm basically just changing oil and filters from time to time.
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: edyvw

They are, if you maintain them properly.


Yea...but "avarage Joe" at least where I and you are comming from still buy diesel cars for short tripping or for 15-20kkms/year...

So your IF in your sentence is BIG one
smile.gif


Funny that I have friend with exactly the same thinking...and he is bosnian too
grin.gif


Of course. But it is really not that complicated to stick to good fuel, not put additives in it etc.
Gasoline, while less complicated is also much more complicated then 80's gasoline engines.
Where you and I are coming is different story. I am talking about U.S. market, and people who drive a lot, diesel is probably best bet. The U.S. roads are perfect for diesels.
 
I will be guessing because I was not over the pond...yet...

But from what I could read here on BITOG... If I will became murrican one day...

Gasoline guzzler will be still safer bet for my propulsion there...

1) decent diesel mechanic over the pond? Especially for our complicated diesels full of electronic devices...leave their cummins and detroits beside

2) their fuel is mostly still full of sulphur (both)

3) ILSAC/API substitutes instead of ACEA
smile.gif


But yes...it is funny to read that they are using gasoline driven trucks (SUV for them) for towing
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If oil "could" be a contributing factor why not forgo the ACEA C3 oils in favor of ACEA E6 oils? There really does not appear to be much of a difference in some of the critical properties


C3 / E6
Ash : Phos : >=.07 Sulphur: TBN : >=6 / >=7


Delvac LE 5w30 or the elusive Rotella T6 Multi Vehicle 5w30 come to mind. However I'm not sure if any 5w-40's fall into the E6 specs, but then you have E9 which still limits ash to
All things being equal just the higher TBN of the heavy duty E's would be enough for me to consider. Especially if I were out of warranty.
 
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Chain, valvetrain, etc. run in the boundary-lubrication regime (metal-to-metal contact). Oil viscosity has no primary lubrication effect in this regime. Additives do the wear protection. High ZDDP is a thing of the past. Today's antiwear/extreme-pressure additive packages don't require high ZDDP and yet protect better than yesterday's high-ZDDP additive packages.

With thinner oils you get better boundary lubrication through secondary effects. During cold starts thinner oils will start lubricating faster and reduce wear. With thinner oils you also get more oil flowing through the chain, which will keep it cooler, more freshly lubricated, and therefore resulting in less wear in comparison to thicker oil, although not in a day-and-night manner.

Premature chain failure is because of poor design and has nothing to do the with the oil used.
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
I will be guessing because I was not over the pond...yet...

But from what I could read here on BITOG... If I will became murrican one day...

Gasoline guzzler will be still safer bet for my propulsion there...

1) decent diesel mechanic over the pond? Especially for our complicated diesels full of electronic devices...leave their cummins and detroits beside

2) their fuel is mostly still full of sulphur (both)

3) ILSAC/API substitutes instead of ACEA
smile.gif


But yes...it is funny to read that they are using gasoline driven trucks (SUV for them) for towing
laugh.gif




1. There are decent mechanics. Diesel is not only European thing.
2. American diesel is on par with EU diesel since all lobbying organizations came to conclusion that sulfur in diesel has to be reduced).
3. ILSAC? No, all Euro diesels are running on ACEA C3 and it is readily available (as you can see in my signature). Most heavy duty diesel engines run on HD oils and they are readily available in all stores at prices you will never see in EU.
As for gas guzzler V8 that is still common here, it is fine, but IMO does not make sense, especially on high altitude like where I live. Did no see yet naturally aspirated V8 that can keep up over the Rockies with BMW diesel.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Oil viscosity has no primary lubrication effect in this regime.

Perhaps, but oil viscosity certainly has a primary function in lubricating chains, camshafts etc.

If it's really poor design behind this then it's coincidentally universal among all automakers on the basis of chains failing, and that's quite a coincidence indeed. How likely is it? Then consider that there are engine lines with the same part number for both NA and GDI-T versions, but the GDI-T versions apparently fail more often. ZDP is one part of the equation, but is it an overall reduction of boundary protection, or is the baton being passed to other compounds like boron, moly, titanium etc?
 
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Oil viscosity has no primary lubrication effect in this regime.

Perhaps, but oil viscosity certainly has a primary function in lubricating chains, camshafts etc.

If it's really poor design behind this then it's coincidentally universal among all automakers on the basis of chains failing, and that's quite a coincidence indeed. How likely is it? Then consider that there are engine lines with the same part number for both NA and GDI-T versions, but the GDI-T versions apparently fail more often. ZDP is one part of the equation, but is it an overall reduction of boundary protection, or is the baton being passed to other compounds like boron, moly, titanium etc?

This doesn't seem to be a lubrication and/or AW/EP additive issue at all. It seems to be a problem with the hydraulic chain tensioner according to many MB threads.

However, since the tensioner is hydraulic, I don't know how oil viscosity affects its operation. I would be more comfortable with oils as thin as possible though, as they would result in the least transient time (least time before the steady-state operation is reached) in the hydraulic tensioner during cold starts.
 
I'd disagree with it NOT being a lube issue. Historically chain guides and/or chains themselves have worn and stretched, exceeding the tensioner's travel limits. Chain stretching is simply the cumulative wear of each and every link-pin on the chain. The longer the chain, the quicker the cumulative stretching. The Benz (and Jeep) guys that have had flappy chain cold start issues on this 3.0L apparently decided to start easy by changing the tensioner, (which is replaceable from the outside of the engine- how cool is that?) yet the start up rattling hadn't gone away. Some said it was even worse with the new tensioner, actually. One owner noted that the aftermarket tensioners did not extend as far as the OEM one. The OEM tensioner 'extended until it fell apart'! This clearly suggests that the chain is stretched right out.

It's definitely not a Benz only issue either. Everyone's dealing with unreasonably-early chain stretch and it's perfectly coincidental with viscosity dropping. That's why whenever anyone asks what oil to use, I say forget about bearings and cylinder walls now, choose your oil for your timing chain because that's most likely where your lubrication problems are gonna come from on a modern engine.

Unfortunately we have no real information on which oil chemistries are incidentally best for chain wear. Not every example of these engines uses the same oil, and thus not every example suffers early chain stretch. I reckon it's become a big enough issue to demand a focus on oil selection and chain wear. How about a spec for it
 
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
How about a spec for it

ILSAC GF-6 will incorporate a timing chain wear test.
 
Interestingly though, both vehicles mentioned by the OP are certified-preowned. They could have been abused and neglected. We have no idea what went in or didn't into those oil-filler holes before they were acquired.
 
Acording to BMW problems with chain stretch/snap in their 2.0D engines here in EU...

More then anything (viscosity or additives used)....it is important that you do not follow OEM recommended long drain OCIs...

If you do....engine get sludged so bad that affect oil delivery on the chain...chain then fail prematurely due to wear and insufficient (oil) cooling...

I know that this varies from poorly designed tensioner...I just wanted to lighten up that aspekt...especially when Gokhan has mentioned "boundary valvetrain lubrication&
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
How about a spec for it

ILSAC GF-6 will incorporate a timing chain wear test.


That is awesome
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Acording to BMW problems with chain stretch/snap in their 2.0D engines here in EU...

More then anything (viscosity or additives used)....it is important that you do not follow OEM recommended long drain OCIs...

If you do....engine get sludged so bad that affect oil delivery on the chain...chain then fail prematurely due to wear and insufficient (oil) cooling...

I know that this varies from poorly designed tensioner...I just wanted to lighten up that aspekt...especially when Gokhan has mentioned "boundary valvetrain lubrication&

However, 2.0d engines have that issue only in certain years.
 
Yep, only some model years. Actually from 07-12 N47 engines are affected. It's not lubrication problems and it's not chain problem per se. Sharp chain sprockets are what cause wear on the chain. Problem is the location of camchain- cabin side.

Well, they did sort the swirl problems from the e46 era.
 
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