Mazda philosophy - no hybrids or electrics

[blackman777]

Oh and for those saying Mazda is not on the top tech curve. They hold the record for the highest compression gasoline engine (for consumers) AND the record for lowest compression Diesel engine.

14:1 for both. These tactics improve MPGs and cleanliness/ cost (the diesel doesn't need urea or soot traps).

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Well, there's the whole apples to oranges thing. Sounds great Mazda can get 72.4 mpg on the JC08 test. Then you find out the Honda Fit Hybrid gets 83.2 mpg, and the same Prius you can buy here gets 76.7.... it's really not that Mazda has this amazing technology in Japan that will be coming to the US soon... it's that Mazda has OK technology in Japan, competitive but not class leading. The only thing you missed was that Japan has a fuel economy test that isn't directly comparable with the EPA's test.


implying the figures quoted are not of the same test/units. Trying to minimize the JC08 results is kind of a bankrupt argument, especially when directly following up with inter-class FE comparisons.

And so, of course you even knew that there was a Mazda hybrid one post ago, now it's suddenly 'Apples and Oranges' and "OK".

Mazda3 HEV = 72.4 MPG US
Honda Fit HEV = 83.2 MPG US (now boasts highest hybrid MPG in Japan, and I can't for the life of me find published power output numbers for it)

Different class of vehicle (ie APPLES AND ORANGES), with arguably entirely different driving dynamics- Mazda3 + HSD vs FIT + IMA + DCT? Yikes, I bet that's a smooth ride.

But even ignoring all of that the Mazda3 HEV in it's first generation appears quite impressive indeed, being a segment size up and only 11MPG (JC08) down on the most fuel efficient hybrid in Japan.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Oh and for those saying Mazda is not on the top tech curve. They hold the record for the highest compression gasoline engine (for consumers) AND the record for lowest compression Diesel engine.

14:1 for both. These tactics improve MPGs and cleanliness/ cost (the diesel doesn't need urea or soot traps).


Chrysler's Max Wedge from the mid 1960's was 13.5:1

 

[blackman777]

I should have specified "on standard 87 octane fuel". That's the amazing part.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I should have specified "on standard 87 octane fuel". That's the amazing part.


It is certainly impressive, no argument there. Don't know if I would call it amazing though. They are leveraging cam timing to change dynamic compression as well as employing other technologies to avoid knock (on the gas engine). The high static CR will make for a more responsive and efficient engine, whilst the ability to bleed off dynamic compression through cam timing (coupled with DI) controls knock and allows for the use of 87 octane fuel. It is a great idea combining those things together here, I just wouldn't necessarily call it amazing

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: blackman777
I should have specified "on standard 87 octane fuel". That's the amazing part.


It is certainly impressive, no argument there. Don't know if I would call it amazing though. They are leveraging cam timing to change dynamic compression as well as employing other technologies to avoid knock (on the gas engine). The high static CR will make for a more responsive and efficient engine, whilst the ability to bleed off dynamic compression through cam timing (coupled with DI) controls knock and allows for the use of 87 octane fuel. It is a great idea combining those things together here, I just wouldn't necessarily call it amazing

That's the real strength of the skyactiv trademark. The synergistic combination of every piece of tech out there along with a small number of proprietary technologies to the entire system.

I've been blasted before, but skyactiv is not all new world leading tech. It is a great idea and Mazda deserves credit for caring about the driving experience as well.

 

[cchase]

Is Mazda sending out people into the forums to advertise their tech or something? Every week there's a new thread on here about how great Mazdas new tech is (always the same tech in each post, however). Always the same little brochure-esque tidbits "highest compression" or "Skyactiv!!"

Mazda will be shooting themselves in the foot unless they implement hybrid technology. Their advances in gasoline-only technology will give them some advantages in the short term but unless they bank on licensing someone elses hybrid technology later, it will be a dead end for them. Eventually they will run out of shortcuts.

 

[blackman777]

Studies show the first innovators usually lose the longterm race. The innovators are usually superceded by someone else. The companies that just sit back & wait, save a lot of cash by letting someone else do the R&D (and then just copy the end product).

Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Nissan have spent billions on hybrid or EV tech, some of which has failed to sell (Insight, accord) or is failing (Leaf). In other words: Cash wasted. Meanwhile other companies have spent almost nothing... they will just copy whatever comes out of this experimental phase.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Is this a licensing issue? IIRC the Toyota system has been licensed out to the Germans and some US manufacturers.


The cost to build from scratch may be too much.

 

[blackman777]

The "Toyota system" actually belongs to a 3rd party company who invented it. That 3rd party leases it to Toyota, Ford, etc (and each company adds various proprietary tweaks).

 

[IndyIan]

I wonder when the patent will run out on the Prius CVT drivetrain? If its less than a decade then it might be the smart move to just wait it out, then use it with their i-eloop capacitor tech.

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I wonder when the patent will run out on the Prius CVT drivetrain? If its less than a decade then it might be the smart move to just wait it out, then use it with their i-eloop capacitor tech.


Well that's a good question, but to be honest I think the system that GM uses in the Volt and the almost identical system the Honda Accord Hybrid has is better. My point being that Mazda (or anyone) can't really wait for technology to hit the 20 year mark, it's already obsolete then.

FWIW, both the Volt and new Honda system have a gas engine coupled to a generator which feeds power to a battery pack and an electric motor driving the wheels. And at high speeds (don't remember the volt, honda's is 44mph IIRC) they can link the gas engine to the wheels. Different than HSD and the results are better, but I don't think for a second Toyota doesn't have a next generation drivetrain waiting around... or that Honda and GM don't plan on a purpose built gas engine for their next generation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
The "Toyota system" actually belongs to a 3rd party company who invented it. That 3rd party leases it to Toyota, Ford, etc (and each company adds various proprietary tweaks).


Got a source for that?

Given that Ford and Toyota had a "technology sharing agreement" because of the similarity between their hybrid systems. Which of course would be unnecessary if they were both leasing tech from a 3rd party

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: blackman777
The "Toyota system" actually belongs to a 3rd party company who invented it. That 3rd party leases it to Toyota, Ford, etc (and each company adds various proprietary tweaks).


Got a source for that?

Given that Ford and Toyota had a "technology sharing agreement" because of the similarity between their hybrid systems. Which of course would be unnecessary if they were both leasing tech from a 3rd party

A german company tried to claim the patent was theirs but failed according to wikipedia.
As for it being obselete soon, I wouldn't count on it, I think has alot of advantages in a 2 engine hybrid. Manual gear boxes have been around for centuries and conventional automatics since the 40's.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Studies show the first innovators usually lose the longterm race. The innovators are usually superceded by someone else. The companies that just sit back & wait, save a lot of cash by letting someone else do the R&D (and then just copy the end product).

Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Nissan have spent billions on hybrid or EV tech, some of which has failed to sell (Insight, accord) or is failing (Leaf). In other words: Cash wasted. Meanwhile other companies have spent almost nothing... they will just copy whatever comes out of this experimental phase.



It doesn't work like that. You can't just "copy" someone's "experimental phase" unless it's something unpatentable, like high power-density, turbo DI engines made reliable for mass production- that is clearly something everyone can copy (and not something everyone gets right the first time). Hybrid technologies have so much litigation behind them, so much patent/IP protection that to "copy" would be impossible.

Toyota, Nissan, GM, Honda, Ford are not losing out- at all actually. At least their marketing budgets certainly don't indicate any kind of 'financial distress'.

Their approach has IMO sucked, and so have their hybrids. So much focus is put on the HEV tech, and not so much on the ICE. It's been "cut off a cylinder here, stick an atkinson cycle cam there, bolt on a heat recovery bottle there, use 0w negative-one-million grade oil", but NO REAL ICE INNOVATION. In all honesty, this last generation of Hybrids in where they should have started out to begin with. But it was all rush to market, a rush to get an HEV onto the lineup. CAFE and carbon trading certainly are great motivators for that.

This is why Toyota, who is becoming more of a technology broker (like Ford, GM) rather than an engineering house wants to partner with other companies (ie Subaru, BMW, Mazda). They have traditionally hired Yamaha for their engine head designs.

Toyota is not a charity, they're a business. Toyota wants and needs something from these partners - chassis, developed engines/controls logic etc. just as the partners want and need something from Toyota - HSD, chassis.

So no, you can't copy patented technology.

 

[blackman777]

Volt only engages the engine direct-drive under extreme conditions... like climbing a mountain. 99.9% of the time the engine is strictly an electricity generator.

JVC copied the VHS video recorder from Sony. As you say you can't copy patented stuff, but they copied the idea after Sony showed it to them. The only difference is the used the M-load system instead of Sonys U-load system.

Sometime around 2020 companies that don't have hybrid tech can just reverse-engineer others' work, make some changes to avoid Toyotas patents, and save a lot of r&d cost.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Volt only engages the engine direct-drive under extreme conditions... like climbing a mountain. 99.9% of the time the engine is strictly an electricity generator.

JVC copied the VHS video recorder from Sony. As you say you can't copy patented stuff, but they copied the idea after Sony showed it to them. The only difference is the used the M-load system instead of Sonys U-load system.


No, VHS is not a copy of Beta. Beta for one, had a smaller form factor and a higher resolution. They are both magnetic tape media FWIW

Likewise, the PC is not a copy of the Mac (although Windows arguably is), nor is the Mac a copy of a PC. However, one dominated the market and became industry standard, which holds even to this day. But none of that relates to the subject at hand.

Quote:

Sometime around 2020 companies that don't have hybrid tech can just reverse-engineer others' work, make some changes to avoid Toyotas patents, and save a lot of r&d cost.


Firstly, if fudging a patented tech and skirting patent laws was that easy, everyone would be doing it especially hybrid technology- do you think all of these patent holders would be blasting mountains of money to kingdom come in litigation if htey could simply do a "fudge & copy"?. The laws work.

In 2020, things will be so far advanced with regard to 'efficiency crutches applied to petroleum fueled motor cars', that trying to "reverse engineer" some lame 2000's hybrid technology would be a really stupid venture IMO.

As long as politics ensures that our primary motoring energy source will remain petroleum, then all these crutches for ICE engines will be invested in; whether increasing thermal efficiency to hybrid systems; all are bad solutions that solve a dumb problem IMO. Some just cleverly displace costs (purchase, environmental or otherwise) more than reduce them altogether.

That said, we play in the realm of political allowance, not technical possibility,-- another reason why every engine on the road doesn't employ something so simple as lean-burn. Because this really driven by politics and not technological capability the thinktanks need to solve technical problems that exist strictly because of political restriction. Thus, gas electric hybrids and further development of the ICE are just inevitable. One cannot survive the future without the other.

 

[bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Is Mazda sending out people into the forums to advertise their tech or something? Every week there's a new thread on here about how great Mazdas new tech is (always the same tech in each post, however). Always the same little brochure-esque tidbits "highest compression" or "Skyactiv!!"


Yes they do.

I joined their Forum Trolling Project back in March 2011.
They gave me an RX-8.
Then in March of this year, they replaced the RX-8 with a CX-5 Touring.

All I have to do is troll BITOG, and remind people like you that my Mazda and it's tech is sweet.

In 2015, they are switching out my CX-5 for a new Mazda MX-5.
And if I'm a really good SkyActiv troll on here, in 2017 they will give me the new halo sports car they are secretly working on today.

Quote:
Mazda will be shooting themselves in the foot unless they implement hybrid technology. Their advances in gasoline-only technology will give them some advantages in the short term but unless they bank on licensing someone elses hybrid technology later, it will be a dead end for them. Eventually they will run out of shortcuts.


They have a couple hybrid designs being tested in Japan currently, and have tested quite a few other technologies over the years.

They have a hybrid Mazda 2 that uses an electric motor, with a RE backup generator being tested:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088...zda-2-prototype

This article has more on the Mazda 2 and Mazda 3 hybrids:

http://driving.ca/mazda/reviews/road-test/rotary-engine-returns-with-electric-mazda2-prototype/

BC.

 

[blackman777]

Sony invited multiple companies to look at Betamax & license the technology in 1973-74. One of those companies was JVC who liked the idea and copied it (but with changes to avoid patent issues). This is confirmed history.

Also it appears Paice has conceded they did not sell their hybrid tech to Toyota and both companies have reached a settlement to share their ideas with one another.

 

[cchase]

The sad part is that Beta was in every way a superior format to VHS. The only reason VHS took over was Sony (and this is a recurring theme for them) refusing to allow anyone else to produce product under the name. Minidisc anyone?