Math is key

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: XS650
One useful bit of advice we got was "If you are going into engineering for the money, leave now because there isn't enough money in it to keep you motivated enough to do the work required to succeed."


Greatest engineer that I ever worked with told me once that engineers were their own worst enemy when it came to remuneration..."You'd do this stuff for nothing in reality...it's just fun"

He's right, I've knocked back jobs due to lack of complexity.


he's wrong, if he ever had to meet his managers budgets or get fired.

engineers are their own worst enemy because they will undercut each other and in times of economic drought set prices so low just to survive. then when they can charge more, no one wants to know about it because you were charging 50% less last year just to win the [censored] little jobs.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


However lawyers and doctors are all crooks who set up their own monopolies that one cannot penetrate even if the person on the outside is smarter or more well informed, and the true level of knowledge required for all but the tiniest fraction of doctors and lawyers is nothing special, at best.


Whew, that was an interesting rant.

It's certainly fair to say that some knowledge of math can be liberating and useful in the right mind, no doubt about that, but it's just as fair to say that math is a safe place of refuge for the dullard, where its rigor and inflexibility allows one to plod along, free from the need to exercise originality or creativity or the risk that goes along with that.

And in the wrong hands it can be destructive, the financial meltdown being the most recent example of math gone amok. Basic greed played a huge role, of course, but the math whizzes pushed the envelope much farther out than it might have been.

I spend about a half to a third of my time as a lawyer, but I am not naive (or foolish) enough to rely on a system that considers opposing viewpoints, set within the framework of evidence whose rules allow considerable discretion in admission or exclusion of same, and where reasonable minds can, and often do, simply differ as to the facts and eventually the ultimate judgment to be made, to protect my property interests. Your own policy of insurance is there to protect your interests.

As to the assertion that medicine and law are monopoly systems set up by crooks, that clearly illustrates a lack of experience in the real world where the purchase of costly services from a professional engineer is made mandatory for certain purposes, regardless of whether or not it is strictly necessary or could be provided by someone else for a lesser cost. Does that make all P.E.'s crooks?

Of course not.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
The engineering major says "how does it work?" at their first job
The science major says "why does it work?" at their first job
The liberal arts major says "would you like to supersize that?" at their first job

The instant you mentioned "job", imo, you put all three groups in the same class - the class that depends on someone else to write them a paycheck.

What is the material difference here?

 

[Colt45ws]

Um, one is McDs and the others are not. Even if they earned the same amount I would rather be in the first two groups. I'd rather not have to deal with the masses.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
The engineering major says "how does it work?" at their first job
The science major says "why does it work?" at their first job
The liberal arts major says "would you like to supersize that?" at their first job

No, the liberal arts major says "They deserve to work" at their first job.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: asiancivicmaniac
Maybe I took the dumbed down version.


That's the reason. When you take the harder one (like that one that derives digital signal processing and signal compression), it makes Calculus looks like kindergarten math.

 

[benjamming]

Win,

So are you denying that the medical & legal fields are now (doesn't matter much now about original setup) monopolies that can't be escaped by a functional person?

 

[pickled]

Those that can properly interpret and articulate repeatable observations from the real world while thinking critically should be rewarded. Having the ability to apply mathematical skills can move mountains (literally) and when used improperly may also lead to the enslavement of millions into policies meant for the abstract "mean" of a population. For those of you who hold this type of power be sure to remember to always try to put the numbers into context (i.e. understanding the bigger why in the equation not just y) prior to communicating them to the folks that govern.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: Win

The instant you mentioned "job", imo, you put all three groups in the same class - the class that depends on someone else to write them a paycheck.

What is the material difference here?


Without customers, a business doesn't get to write paychecks either.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Win
Does that make all P.E.'s crooks?

Of course not.



I see far fewer PEs driving super-fancy cars, buying boats and third homes than I do doctors and lawyers.

Is the monopoly for PEs crooked? Maybe. The difference, 99% of the stuff that a doctor or lawyer does is simple and straightforward. Is that the case for the PE? Maybe somewhat. It is in the level and detail of the analysis. I wouldn't necessarily say that the #1 vascular surgeon in the country isnt worth $100/hr, $200/hr, $500/hr, but that is far from the typical doctor. The point is the level of analysis and effort taken for the dollar.

I imagine that the level of analysis to be performed by the PE is far higher than the level of analysis performed by a doctor writing meds for strep throat... Get my concept? Yet, the PE probably has to work for an hour to earn their $150/hr... the doctor charges $90 for 15 minutes of which they actually interact with you for five, and the nurses do most of the work... and the doctor is still making out.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
Win,

So are you denying that the medical & legal fields are now (doesn't matter much now about original setup) monopolies that can't be escaped by a functional person?


I don't know what you mean when you say "escaped by a functional person".

I wouldn't want to DIY medicine, no matter how smart I fancied myself, because I am not a doctor.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2



I see far fewer PEs driving super-fancy cars, buying boats and third homes than I do doctors and lawyers.


And your point is?

I know at least one P.E. with a pretty good real estate empire. Good on him, I say. I know another bunch that, after a careful analysis, determined that only a certain parcel of land was in any way suitable for a municipal water project. Care to guess who owned the only suitable land?

I do think I get your concept. You think they are overpaid for what they do. The problem is that you're not one of them, and don't really know what they do, anymore than I know what the P.E. does when he is drawing up my plans that I may or may not follow, but I have to buy anyway to get a #8&% building permit.

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know what percentage of medicine is straighforward. I know my overhead is the same whether I am working on a routine problem, or something that really requires some skill.

I'll also tell you what I hate - I hate charging people thousands of dollars in some instances to fix something after the fact, when a $125 office visit could have prevented it in the first place.

 

[adam123]

I'm actually going to college for Electrical Engineering right now,I can actually take 3 more classes have a degree in Computer Engineering (Giving this one some serious serious though), and another class after that to have a minor in Mathematics. So we'll see how that goes, hopefully well.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: adam123
I'm actually going to college for Electrical Engineering right now,I can actually take 3 more classes have a degree in Computer Engineering (Giving this one some serious serious though), and another class after that to have a minor in Mathematics. So we'll see how that goes, hopefully well.


Start doing internship immediately. Having another degree or two sounds nice but doesn't do much for your potential employer. What really land you a job is work experience (which internship provide) and how quickly can you adapt to a real work environment. Of course, make sure you get at least a 3.0 since most picky employers won't hire people that are below 3.0 GPA at least in the core engineering classes.

 

[adam123]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: adam123
I'm actually going to college for Electrical Engineering right now,I can actually take 3 more classes have a degree in Computer Engineering (Giving this one some serious serious though), and another class after that to have a minor in Mathematics. So we'll see how that goes, hopefully well.


Start doing internship immediately. Having another degree or two sounds nice but doesn't do much for your potential employer. What really land you a job is work experience (which internship provide) and how quickly can you adapt to a real work environment. Of course, make sure you get at least a 3.0 since most picky employers won't hire people that are below 3.0 GPA at least in the core engineering classes.


I'm actually working for the Department of Labor. I've worked this summer and last. They offered me a scholarship this May, if I would agree to work for them for at least 2 years; with my internship time counting for that. I agreed and now their paying for my college. A lot of the work I've been doing has been on PLC's I'm gonna try to take some elective classes on that mainly because I need to know everything about those that I can. I really don't wanna get caught with "with my pants down" so to speak.

 

[JHZR2]

Dept. of labor isn't hands-on engineering work in a relevant field... that is a tricky situation.

What will happen is that you might have a paid-for college education, but then will come out as a government employee in an unrelated field, and will work two years and forget your formal training.

I would suggest to use this situation to get yourself at least partway to a Master's degree. Obtain a suitable GPA to be able to do a Master's, and do it at night.

You may loose your sharpness not doing relevant stuff for a few years, and youll not be gaining real experience in the DOL.

Not a bad set-up, just need to make the most of it..

GOOD LUCK!

 

[pickled]

Originally Posted By: adam123


I really don't wanna get caught with "with my pants down" so to speak.



Keep hanging around at any decent public university long enough and odds are you will have that happen to you LOL!

 

[adam123]

That was one of the things I was worried about actually. I actually work in the MSHA division (Mine Safety and Health). Their's quite a few electrical Eng's down there. Most of the work involves certifying that a Design is what it promises, Under adverse conditions it's operation is acceptable, and that safety and redundancy is maintained at all times. Some of those things are actually a fairly tall order. We also go to the actual site, make sure that the equipment is being maintained and that nothing is bypassed. You'd be suprised at how cleveryly some of these systems can be tampered with. I can't give you real case info (because a lot of it actually ends up in litigation) but an example that relates was a Co monitoring system that polls on a regular interval and polls at .75DC when the reading is acceptable and .80DC when not, whe'll if you just looked at the monitoring equipment it will show that everything is just fine. If we tested it using a standalone unit and found that the owners equipment was manfulnctioning then we can issue a order asking them to fix the equipment, if we found multiple issues of this occuring in the same location. Then we may take part of the system down and test each componet, and go from there. BTW, a transistor and a resistor can do wonders when it's wired inside the output feed.

 

[Dave Hess]

JHZR2,

You are right... most kids today really aren't interested in math.

Without engineers we would sill be living like Fred Flintstone.

 

[adam123]

Forgot to mention I do work in the Electrical Division.