Marvel Mystery Oil added to oil and gasket leaks

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: urdrwho
I think that was it, I fell for the label talking about adding it during oil changes.

"Marvel recommends replacing between 10 and 25 percent of your motor oil with MMO. "

I didn't add it at every change but I did use it more often than not.

In my one car directly after an oil change with MMO added, a terrible leak started at the rear of the head. There is a plate at the rear of the head that is
impossible to reach, impossible to replace the sealing gasket. It was dripping onto the exhaust and smelled. All that i could attempt is to take RTV and smear around the plate as best I could. I could not reach all of the plate and to this day, I still get drips.

The last time I had an experience with oil leaks after an oil change was 15 years. At the time the car I bought was high mileage and synth oil was the new rage. I tried it only to witness oil seeping from all kind of places. I think the same can happen with MMO.


Using solvent or thin oil cleaner additives can be one bad idea in any modern engine and in particular ones with turbos. It says in the worlds most common but least read book (The owners handbook) do not use oil additives and they say that for very sound reasons.
With older engines you might have an internal varnish layer coating part of the shaft, oil seal or gasket and if it gets dissolved then you can get an oil leak.
If you think you have a minor sludge case (very rare if you use a good oil and OCI), use an oil additive designed for idle use only just before the oil change
and then consider using an oil with more detergent like a major brand synthetic or if you have oil leaks an HM oil with a shorter initial OCI.
Liqui Moly and Amsoil both make good idle only flush additives, that are safe for any engine.

Aren't these products solvents? Doesn't the owners manual state not to add anything to oil?
How exactly will these products clean differently than mmo? If there was a gasket failure that mmo made leak,how will these solvent flushes prevent that from happening?
So your saying it's ok to use an idle type solvent flush but not ok to use a leave in type of flush. If they both clean deposits how will one not cause a leak that the other will?
Just trying to figure this one out,since both are solvents,just the routine is different.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: urdrwho
I think that was it, I fell for the label talking about adding it during oil changes.

"Marvel recommends replacing between 10 and 25 percent of your motor oil with MMO. "

I didn't add it at every change but I did use it more often than not.

In my one car directly after an oil change with MMO added, a terrible leak started at the rear of the head. There is a plate at the rear of the head that is
impossible to reach, impossible to replace the sealing gasket. It was dripping onto the exhaust and smelled. All that i could attempt is to take RTV and smear around the plate as best I could. I could not reach all of the plate and to this day, I still get drips.

The last time I had an experience with oil leaks after an oil change was 15 years. At the time the car I bought was high mileage and synth oil was the new rage. I tried it only to witness oil seeping from all kind of places. I think the same can happen with MMO.


Using solvent or thin oil cleaner additives can be one bad idea in any modern engine and in particular ones with turbos. It says in the worlds most common but least read book (The owners handbook) do not use oil additives and they say that for very sound reasons.
With older engines you might have an internal varnish layer coating part of the shaft, oil seal or gasket and if it gets dissolved then you can get an oil leak.
If you think you have a minor sludge case (very rare if you use a good oil and OCI), use an oil additive designed for idle use only just before the oil change
and then consider using an oil with more detergent like a major brand synthetic or if you have oil leaks an HM oil with a shorter initial OCI.
Liqui Moly and Amsoil both make good idle only flush additives, that are safe for any engine.

Aren't these products solvents? Doesn't the owners manual state not to add anything to oil?
How exactly will these products clean differently than mmo? If there was a gasket failure that mmo made leak,how will these solvent flushes prevent that from happening?
So your saying it's ok to use an idle type solvent flush but not ok to use a leave in type of flush. If they both clean deposits how will one not cause a leak that the other will?
Just trying to figure this one out,since both are solvents,just the routine is different.


The at idle flush solvents are not strong enough to remove soft varnish and are far safer because they are used at idle. With stronger drive around flush chemicals you directly interfere with the function of the engine oil and risk blocking the oil pump feed or turbo oil feed line. If you don't want to clean sludge out correctly by taking the sump and valve covers off, using drive around solvents is a gamble in terms of engine damage. You might need to use an idle only flush twice with a few hundred miles between oil changes to get a good effect. I suppose if you had sludge helping to prevent an oil leak from a gasket rather than an oil seal, even an idle flush might increase the leak rate.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: urdrwho
Of my four cars all are close to the 200,000 mile range. Two cars have had MMO put in with the oil and two never had it.

Of the two that never had MMO put in the oil, neither of them have any gasket leaks that leave oil on the driveway.

Of the two that had MMO put in the oil, both have gasket leaks that leave oil on the driveway.

It may be anecdotal evidence but with the cars I purchase in the future I don't think I'll be putting MMO into my oil.


Forget the MMO, its just not needed. Do you have gasket or seal leaks?

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
How can it have a Ph with no water?

Hello?


It has been shown time and time again to be acidic in the sumps. It will mildly decrease TBN as a result, nothing drastic.


Gee, so my chemistry teacher was all wrong when they told me you cannot have a Ph without water present? That is supposedly an absolute.


I thought it was a measure of hydrogen ion concentration.

I thought you could have hydrogen on its own, I thought that was one issue with hydrogen fuel cells long term use as Hydrogen is always stuck on something else, oxygen being the most common.

But it has been many, many years since I have had anything to do with this subject at school and my memory is a bit fuzzy.

Been more used to end tidal co2 and spo2 measurements for last decade or so.

The last time I measured pH must have been the mid eighties!

If I had some MMO in front of me I would stick in one of those bits of pH paper to find out.

But I was never told water had to be present to measure pH, just hydrogen.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: urdrwho
I think that was it, I fell for the label talking about adding it during oil changes.

"Marvel recommends replacing between 10 and 25 percent of your motor oil with MMO. "

I didn't add it at every change but I did use it more often than not.

In my one car directly after an oil change with MMO added, a terrible leak started at the rear of the head. There is a plate at the rear of the head that is
impossible to reach, impossible to replace the sealing gasket. It was dripping onto the exhaust and smelled. All that i could attempt is to take RTV and smear around the plate as best I could. I could not reach all of the plate and to this day, I still get drips.

The last time I had an experience with oil leaks after an oil change was 15 years. At the time the car I bought was high mileage and synth oil was the new rage. I tried it only to witness oil seeping from all kind of places. I think the same can happen with MMO.


Using solvent or thin oil cleaner additives can be one bad idea in any modern engine and in particular ones with turbos. It says in the worlds most common but least read book (The owners handbook) do not use oil additives and they say that for very sound reasons.
With older engines you might have an internal varnish layer coating part of the shaft, oil seal or gasket and if it gets dissolved then you can get an oil leak.
If you think you have a minor sludge case (very rare if you use a good oil and OCI), use an oil additive designed for idle use only just before the oil change
and then consider using an oil with more detergent like a major brand synthetic or if you have oil leaks an HM oil with a shorter initial OCI.
Liqui Moly and Amsoil both make good idle only flush additives, that are safe for any engine.

Aren't these products solvents? Doesn't the owners manual state not to add anything to oil?
How exactly will these products clean differently than mmo? If there was a gasket failure that mmo made leak,how will these solvent flushes prevent that from happening?
So your saying it's ok to use an idle type solvent flush but not ok to use a leave in type of flush. If they both clean deposits how will one not cause a leak that the other will?
Just trying to figure this one out,since both are solvents,just the routine is different.


The at idle flush solvents are not strong enough to remove soft varnish and are far safer because they are used at idle. With stronger drive around flush chemicals you directly interfere with the function of the engine oil and risk blocking the oil pump feed or turbo oil feed line. If you don't want to clean sludge out correctly by taking the sump and valve covers off, using drive around solvents is a gamble in terms of engine damage. You might need to use an idle only flush twice with a few hundred miles between oil changes to get a good effect. I suppose if you had sludge helping to prevent an oil leak from a gasket rather than an oil seal, even an idle flush might increase the leak rate.


I was always told and have read that if you use a flush from day one the. It is all good, but to use a flush on a neglected engine risks breaking big bits free that gather in oil ways and the sump and can block things up.

The method I used to follow was do several short OCI's with the cheapest on spec oil you could find, as the additives and filter will be at their best when fresh.

Obviously I now realise that it is best to use a good quality oil with good add package. Though I still use a new filter as I am not entirely in agreement with oil filters getting more effiecient when older. They may stop more, but they will flow less is my reasoning.

I do wonder if smallish turbo diesels like those common in Europe are less inclined to sludge?

Possibly due to that fact diesels, especially direct injected diesels, run that little bit cooler than most lean burn, high revving petrol engines perhaps?

I would take off a rocker cover to check but if any body has seen the amount of stuff you would have to remove I think you will understand why I haven't done so, that and the fact we use the cars everyday pretty much and the Taxi and Pathfinder are rented out most of the time.

 

[electrolover]

To the op
I have used mmo in my cars more than a few times and never had a leak. For whatever thats worth...

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
urdrwho - Its been holding that car together for over 100k now.


So that's why my fender fell off when I stopped using it...

 

[fedvet]

Use MMO in the fuel tank as a conditioner. Helps to keep the system clean and the injector tips clear. About one fuel fill up before oil changes I add about one ounce per quart of oil in crankcase as a gentle cleaner. When it is time to drop the oil it seems to be darker and perhaps flows more readily (engine always warmed up) than if I had not treated the oil. Imagination? Perhaps. But, I see no harm, I do not use it "in place of" the engine oil, and feel it does have a place as a mild detergent cleaner that keeps the passages rooted out and mitigates any sludge issues. And in that vein, both Toyotas we still have were allegedly part of the sludge issue cars. We've had zero issues, but I suppose changing at around 5K with synthetic and at around 3-4K with dino may have something to do with that. I also use in our other vehicles with success.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: fedvet
Use MMO in the fuel tank as a conditioner. Helps to keep the system clean and the injector tips clear. About one fuel fill up before oil changes I add about one ounce per quart of oil in crankcase as a gentle cleaner. When it is time to drop the oil it seems to be darker and perhaps flows more readily (engine always warmed up) than if I had not treated the oil. Imagination? Perhaps. But, I see no harm, I do not use it "in place of" the engine oil, and feel it does have a place as a mild detergent cleaner that keeps the passages rooted out and mitigates any sludge issues. And in that vein, both Toyotas we still have were allegedly part of the sludge issue cars. We've had zero issues, but I suppose changing at around 5K with synthetic and at around 3-4K with dino may have something to do with that. I also use in our other vehicles with success.


If you want to use a fuel additive there are much better products than Moo oil, most manufacturers or dealers have a recommended or fully approved fuel additive that can be useful if you have to use poor quality fuel in particular.
Your engine manual says don't use oil additives for a lot of very good reasons, GM for example changed to a new type of oil seal for their petrol cars a few years ago and they have been getting problems with oil seals damaged by solvents, so have issued a specific warning for their petrol cars.
If you have concerns about lack of additives or how clean your engine is inside, just look for a better oil or reduce the OCI. HM oils in particular are of use for older engines.
Modern engine oils now use different additives to the old clasic conventional oils and some of them like the new X/20 grades have a very full but chemically balanced add pack, so when you add a can of snake oil you are conducting a chemistry experiment, because none of the snake oil manufacturers ever bother to test their products with all the different engine oils.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: skunkship
GM for example changed to a new type of oil seal for their petrol cars a few years ago and they have been getting problems with oil seals damaged by solvents,

Sounds like another whopper you just made up to prove you point. Proof?
Just what is this new seal material?

 

[SteveSRT8]

As a long term owner of a lot of GM V8's I can say without question they practically do not ever leak oil anymore.

I have some very high mileage rigs out there that do not leak a drop anywhere.

Note that two of them have had repeated Kreen dosages across the last year or so.

So how about that, skyship?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
As a long term owner of a lot of GM V8's I can say without question they practically do not ever leak oil anymore.

I have some very high mileage rigs out there that do not leak a drop anywhere.

Note that two of them have had repeated Kreen dosages across the last year or so.

So how about that, skyship?


It can't be, you're the only person with high mile leak free vehicles that have been either treated with Kreen, MMO, or both. Anyone else using the products created leaks, ruined their engines, or are liars when saying they have no leaks or the products worked. Geeeeezzzzz haven't you been here long enough to know?

 

[skyship]

This is the GM warning for those that have not read it before:

GM Technical Service Bulletin 04-06-01-029E even addressed this in April 2010.

From that bulletin:

-------------------------
Models:
2011 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including Saturn)…

Engine Crankcase Flushing

General Motors Corporation does not endorse or recommend engine crankcase flushing for any of its gasoline engines. Analysis of some of the aftermarket materials used for crankcase flushing indicate incompatibility with GM engine components and the potential for damage to some engine seals and bearings.
Damage to engine components resulting from crankcase flushing IS NOT COVERED under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
-------------------------


For some reason it does not say when the warning is valid from.

 

[shell_user]

I am amazed at you skyship, you still havent shown ANYBODY ANY PROOF. Quit talking or show myself, Clevy and everyone else here that has proved you wrong your PROOF!!

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: skyship
This is the GM warning for those that have not read it before:

GM Technical Service Bulletin 04-06-01-029E even addressed this in April 2010.

From that bulletin:

-------------------------
Models:
2011 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including Saturn)…

Engine Crankcase Flushing

General Motors Corporation does not endorse or recommend engine crankcase flushing for any of its gasoline engines. Analysis of some of the aftermarket materials used for crankcase flushing indicate incompatibility with GM engine components and the potential for damage to some engine seals and bearings.
Damage to engine components resulting from crankcase flushing IS NOT COVERED under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
-------------------------


For some reason it does not say when the warning is valid from.


That sounds like they are warning against the idle only flush (Since the owners manual already says not to add anything to oil, it is unlikely they would repeat themselves with respect to additives)

In which case it is ironic as earlier you said idle only flushes are safe for all engines.

 

[shell_user]

LOL!! Skyship doesnt know what he is saying and he obviously doesnt know anything. He says one thing, then changes like the weather!

 

[skyship]

In terms of providing proof that an oil additive damaged an old engine you need to have a detailed engineering report on the condition of the engine before the use of the additive and another done after use. The fact that you can't prove what condition an engine was in before an incident means that a company can sell almost anything as an oil additive without fear of legal consequences.
You can find lots of folks saying a flush caused their engine to fail, but they don't have the documentation to prove it and no lawyer will take on such cases for a percentage fee due to their highly technical and expensive nature. Selling snake oils has always been the perfect crime, which is why there are so many small companies involved.

 

[shell_user]

blah, blah, blah sounds like another busted record.

 

[Trav]

Hey Skyship any thoughts on non solvent flushes?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Hey Skyship any thoughts on non solvent flushes?


Good question. I wonder where he stands on auto RX. He doesn't approve of anything left in a driven with,however that was his position the other day. I'm not sure if he's flipped flopped and if today it's flip or flop.
Not like anyone listens anyway