Marine oil vs. HD oil vs. Race oil?

[Riverracer]

It is getting much harder to find a good dino oil to use in a race motor (without having to go to some more exotic and expensive oils) with the EPA forcing oil manufacturers to remove Zink and other enviromentally unfriendly additives. Does anyone have any experience with Marine specific oils that don't have to meet automotive EPA ratings and therefore have all the good stuff still in them? I was thinking that they might be a good alternative with HD (diesel) oils starting to loose their friction additives?

I know Mercury, Shell and Amsoil have Marine specific oils that may be good alternatives for us wanting a good oil for racing.

 

[Turk]

I don't have a race application, but I've been wondering about adding in some Marine oils in an auto for a long time...

 

[Dad2leia]

Don't quote me on this one, but IIRC, marine oils are just as good in the additive level department, with the addition of an extra rust protection additive stage built in due to the fact of the marine environment contributing quite so heavily to the rusting area.

The catch to this is even the marine area is feeling the squeeze of the EPA and reduced emissions levels, as 2-stroke outboards are going the way of the dodo faster and faster these days. MOre and more four strokes could mean that they may eventually lower the Zn and P levels of their oils due to consumption and emissions.

We all might have to face the newer oils' formulas one day, and hope that the older engines love it. Chemistries have come far, so there is hope.

 

[cosynthetics]

As of yet I believe Rotella 5w-40 is still CI-4+ and has not been redesigned.

Haven't some on here also quoted using motorcycle oils?

If you state Amsoil as a possibility, why not use their HD or racing oils. I thought they would qualify as one of the "expensive" oils you were quoting about not wanting to go to.

 

[jsharp]

The old formula CI-4+ Rotella is still available along with the newer CJ-4 formula.

I'd question why you want the older formula though. Shell claims substantially lower wear with the newer formula. About 50% less in fact.

Unless things aren't quite what they seem, it looks like zddp isn't the be all and end all of additives. The folks on BITOG already knew that though. Right?

 

[ccs v2.0]

Unless you can get good online prices, buy in bulk, or can get a 'hookup', I don't see how 4 cycle marine oils would be economically viable. IIRC, the price of Mercruiser 25W40 dino at the marina where my wife works is over US$4 a quart. At this price range, I don't see an economic benefit over a quality HDEO or synthetic.

 

[cosynthetics]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
The old formula CI-4+ Rotella is still available along with the newer CJ-4 formula.

I'd question why you want the older formula though. Shell claims substantially lower wear with the newer formula. About 50% less in fact.

Unless things aren't quite what they seem, it looks like zddp isn't the be all and end all of additives. The folks on BITOG already knew that though. Right?

I'd like to know if Shell's claims are warranted. With the TBN of the CJ stuff being limited to 8 most think it will not last as long.

 

[Volvohead]

In all the years we've been boating (over 30), most folks have used heavier weight HDEOs as their "marine" oils in gas and diesel engines. The traditional concern for marine engines is not heat, but high fuel dilution rates and maintaining viscosity against stiff bearing loads. While there are some similarities, most marine engines are easy thermal loads and don't exactly equate to a race engine on a track.

Old timers tend to laugh at the "marine" oils as a another way for the supply store to steal more money, as anything labeled "marine" typically has a 100% markup. The corrosion control issue is overhyped. I doubt there is anything in it that would benefit a track engine anymore than an HDEO or race oil would. Save your money, or dose your current oil with an additive.

If you want a good dino racing oil, what about Brad Penn?

 

[Dad2leia]

Thank you Volvohead for mentioning Brad Penn. I just didn't want to be the first. !

Like I said in my post, it was only hearsay as far as the additive and rust protection department.

What kind of boat?!?!

 

[Riverracer]

Originally Posted By: Dad2leia
Thank you Volvohead for mentioning Brad Penn. I just didn't want to be the first. !

Like I said in my post, it was only hearsay as far as the additive and rust protection department.

What kind of boat?!?!


I race a Whitewater River Marathon Jet Boat, 366 SBC, 13-1 comp, dry sump, naturally aspirated with about 700hp. The engine is built for endurance racing and must be able to endure long periods of sustained WOT, 30-40 minute races at WOT (100% WOT SUSTAINED - no letting off) at a time. Comparable to putting the engine on a dyno at WOT for 30-40 minutes straight.

We run our oil around 220-240F, currently Joe Gibbs Synthetic XP3. I find one of our engines, an all aluminum engine has far worse condensation problems than the other cast iron engine. We run our engines quite cold 120-140F which probably adds to the condensation upon shut down.

I'm considering switching to a non or semi synthetic oil that has sufficient additives/properties yet is inexpensive enough so I can switch the oil after every hour instead of the current every 5 hours. I think that it may be better to change the oil much more often and use a non synthetic oil that has a similar anti shear and friction qualities as a synthetic.

I would think that a good marine oil would be as good or better than a HDEO/race oil because it should have similar additive packages yet also have an anti corrosive additive. I guess there would be a trade off between a pure race oil with low detergents and no or limited anti corrosive additives compared to a marine oil with higher detergency levels and anti corrosive additives. I think I would prefer a lower detergency level especially if I'm changing the oil often.

I was hoping someone here would have some quantitative experience that may shed some light on how the 3 oils compare both in additives and real life experience. Understandably, I'm a little nervous about using an oil that isn't up to the task with a $45,000 engine

 

[Volvohead]

So this IS for a marine engine. You should also post over in the boat forum.

I think the first thing you should do is see how your current oil is actually doing, and what needs to be improved (if anything), by doing an couple UOIs and a professional read.

You're almost certainly running RWC, so condensation can become a greater concern. But if you're changing out as often as you say, I think you may find the concerns not as dire, or the need for marine oil additives so great.

Some racing synthetics are sometimes NOT the best choice for a marine environment, as they don't handle any moisture very well.

But FWIW, I've seen "go-fasts" running more powerful engines than yours (many blown and some significantly more expensive than yours) on plain jane Valvoline dino racing oil with no ill effects. I liked M1 15w-50 ten or fifteen years ago, but the formula has changed, so I don't know how good it is on the water anymore. I don't know what Joe Gibbs oil is made of. But as I said, most mainstream boaters I've known do very well with HDEOs.

As the old hands around here say, an oil is about the whole package. Consider both the base chemistry and the add package together. The former can dictate what is needed in the latter. A weaker add package doesn't necessarily mean a weaker oil. So don't fixate only on the additives.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: cosynthetics
Originally Posted By: jsharp
The old formula CI-4+ Rotella is still available along with the newer CJ-4 formula.

I'd question why you want the older formula though. Shell claims substantially lower wear with the newer formula. About 50% less in fact.

Unless things aren't quite what they seem, it looks like zddp isn't the be all and end all of additives. The folks on BITOG already knew that though. Right?

I'd like to know if Shell's claims are warranted. With the TBN of the CJ stuff being limited to 8 most think it will not last as long.


Why should we doubt Shell's statements? More stringent testing and better performance is part of the new specification.

I'm not sure where you found that the TBN limit is 8. Shell claims 10.1 on their datasheet -

http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/RotellaT(CJ-4).pdf

Yes, the TBN of the CI-4+ oil was slightly higher but 10+ should be more than adequate for a gasoline engine don't you think? Especially if the TBN retention is better than the old formula which it very well may be in a gasoline engine.

I've seen this "I want the old stuff with more ZDDP" on a lot of boards but I've yet to see any hard data that would tell me the older oils work better.

The possible exception might be very high sulfur diesel applications where the drain intervals might be longer with the older oils. That doesn't tell us they show less wear though and it's certainly not applicable to this conversation...

 

[Ryan02SS]

Man that sounds like an awesome motor! I just completed the build and install of my 385ci SBC in my Challenger. I'm breaking it in right now and using regular Castrol 10W-30 for the first few hours of run time. I'm also looking for an oil to use. I've had 4 different SBC's in the boat and have run alot of oils with the same results. My last two motors ran only Mobil Delvac 1300S 15W-40 @ 25-30 hr change intervals and the internals looked really good upon teardown. Visible crosshatching, minor skirt wear, no bore polishing, good compression. I would look at the Mobil 1 15W-50 Syn with the silver cap. It seems the big boys over at Offshoreonly are running that in their big $$$ BBC blower motors with great results.

Here's my lil 475hp SBC....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORkMT3JMWu8

 

[Riverracer]

What about using a Motorcycle oil? They are suppose to have anti rust additives. But, I'm a little confused when they say they have anti friction modifiers because of they have wet clutches? How can an oil be any good with "anti friction" modifiers?