My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at <1500 rpm unless you really get into the pedal. Count me in the group of folks that miss manuals.
Manual Trans are Disappearing !
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I enjoy manuals much more; automatics seem so clueless about when I want them to shift. Which is rarely yet they seem obliged to always be doing something.
However after test driving several econoboxes I think the oems have no desire to make a decent trans for our market. Lousy clutches, rubbery gearshifts, etc. DBW makes shifting annoying (engine revs up when you clutch instead of down).
Driving is becoming a chore to me, and I am starting to not want to drive a car past 200k anymore. So I'm not sure I care anymore. As long as it goes 200k... whatever gets the job done.
However after test driving several econoboxes I think the oems have no desire to make a decent trans for our market. Lousy clutches, rubbery gearshifts, etc. DBW makes shifting annoying (engine revs up when you clutch instead of down).
Driving is becoming a chore to me, and I am starting to not want to drive a car past 200k anymore. So I'm not sure I care anymore. As long as it goes 200k... whatever gets the job done.
Originally Posted By: hatt
My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at div>
Can you lock out upper gears? I do that a lot in my truck. Only problem is mine likes to bang into gear when I upshift.
My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at div>
Can you lock out upper gears? I do that a lot in my truck. Only problem is mine likes to bang into gear when I upshift.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Here we go-another manual transmission thread where all of the manual transmission chest-thumpers come out in droves, as if driving a manual requires any sort of special skill or advanced knowledge. It really doesn't-even my 60-something wife drove our manual Subaru until we sold it last winter.
Driving a modern, dumbed down manual transmission is no more difficult than driving an automatic-it is just a slightly different skill. Yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of those touting their superior driving skills with a manual wouldn't have the first idea of how to drive a real manual, something not synchronized and with twin sticks perhaps. Or something non-synchronised with 13 or 18 gears, or even a little 5 & 2.
"Here we go" indeed. Pop - you seem to post this in every single thread about MTs. We get it, it's nothing special.
But where's all the chest thumping? You always call out this "chest-thumping" but most posters in these threads are saying nothing more than something about their preferences in vehicles. YOU'RE the one who always brings out the bit about "real" manuals.
Here we go-another manual transmission thread where all of the manual transmission chest-thumpers come out in droves, as if driving a manual requires any sort of special skill or advanced knowledge. It really doesn't-even my 60-something wife drove our manual Subaru until we sold it last winter.
Driving a modern, dumbed down manual transmission is no more difficult than driving an automatic-it is just a slightly different skill. Yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of those touting their superior driving skills with a manual wouldn't have the first idea of how to drive a real manual, something not synchronized and with twin sticks perhaps. Or something non-synchronised with 13 or 18 gears, or even a little 5 & 2.
"Here we go" indeed. Pop - you seem to post this in every single thread about MTs. We get it, it's nothing special.
But where's all the chest thumping? You always call out this "chest-thumping" but most posters in these threads are saying nothing more than something about their preferences in vehicles. YOU'RE the one who always brings out the bit about "real" manuals.
I felt bad when GM stopped putting manual transmissions in their pick up trucks. But once winter rolled around and plowing season started I was brought back to reality with my left knee hurting after working the clutch on my plow truck for a day and a half during a bad winter storm. I once had a 1977 Chevy landscape / plow truck with a Turbo 350 transmission in it and the trans lasted to 70,000 plus miles before blowing out a gear. It would be nice if there was a side by side comparison of the longevity of the manual vs automatic transmission when subject to the same stresses like towing, plowing, etc.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: hatt
My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at div>
Can you lock out upper gears? I do that a lot in my truck. Only problem is mine likes to bang into gear when I upshift.
I can lock out gears but the top gears aren't really the problem. Low speed turns etc are the problem. Trans will be in 3rd or 4th while you're trying to accelerate.
Originally Posted By: hatt
My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at div>
Can you lock out upper gears? I do that a lot in my truck. Only problem is mine likes to bang into gear when I upshift.
I can lock out gears but the top gears aren't really the problem. Low speed turns etc are the problem. Trans will be in 3rd or 4th while you're trying to accelerate.
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: hatt
My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at div>
Can you lock out upper gears? I do that a lot in my truck. Only problem is mine likes to bang into gear when I upshift.
I can lock out gears but the top gears aren't really the problem. Low speed turns etc are the problem. Trans will be in 3rd or 4th while you're trying to accelerate.
Exactly. I will select the top gear I want, very often 3. In the yard sometimes I will select 1 as there is no reason to shift at all. Just hit the down button when I put into gear, or hit down when I come to an intersection.
I have yet to figure out though if I should let off the throttle when I hit up. I do but often if is not a smooth shift.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: hatt
My F150 could use a manual. It spends a lot of time in the wrong gear in city driving. The 5.0 likes to rev but the computer tries to keep the engine lugging at div>
Can you lock out upper gears? I do that a lot in my truck. Only problem is mine likes to bang into gear when I upshift.
I can lock out gears but the top gears aren't really the problem. Low speed turns etc are the problem. Trans will be in 3rd or 4th while you're trying to accelerate.
Exactly. I will select the top gear I want, very often 3. In the yard sometimes I will select 1 as there is no reason to shift at all. Just hit the down button when I put into gear, or hit down when I come to an intersection.
I have yet to figure out though if I should let off the throttle when I hit up. I do but often if is not a smooth shift.
Now, even though I have a major preference for automatics, I do also like the manual mode on the one in my pickup. There are instances where determining the shifts manually is a good thing and keeping it out of higher gears to prevent unnecessary gear "hunting" and shifting on hillier rural roads, gravel roads, etc. And forcing a gear drop when slowing can assist in stopping, but then, any automatic had that feature with just the shift lever selection. And on the pickups, tow/haul modes that change the transmission shift points and also provide some braking effect on down grades and such.
I really liked when the auto/pickup OEM's finally caught up, somewhat, to the heavy commericial truck automatics and auto shifts, by implementing a manual mode.. Now if they would just give us a "hold" mode that would not shift out of that gear unless engine underspend or overspeed parameters are met.
I really liked when the auto/pickup OEM's finally caught up, somewhat, to the heavy commericial truck automatics and auto shifts, by implementing a manual mode.. Now if they would just give us a "hold" mode that would not shift out of that gear unless engine underspend or overspeed parameters are met.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Here we go-another manual transmission thread where all of the manual transmission chest-thumpers come out in droves, as if driving a manual requires any sort of special skill or advanced knowledge. It really doesn't-even my 60-something wife drove our manual Subaru until we sold it last winter.
Driving a modern, dumbed down manual transmission is no more difficult than driving an automatic-it is just a slightly different skill. Yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of those touting their superior driving skills with a manual wouldn't have the first idea of how to drive a real manual, something not synchronized and with twin
stickssticks perhaps. Or something non-synchronised with 13 or 18 gears, or even a little 5 & 2.
Your post on manual transmission is not exactly relevant since synchronized transmissions have been around since at least the 1970's. The other type you inferred with 13 or 18 or 5 &2 do not reflect the context of this thread applying to light trucks, SUV and automobile.
Here we go-another manual transmission thread where all of the manual transmission chest-thumpers come out in droves, as if driving a manual requires any sort of special skill or advanced knowledge. It really doesn't-even my 60-something wife drove our manual Subaru until we sold it last winter.
Driving a modern, dumbed down manual transmission is no more difficult than driving an automatic-it is just a slightly different skill. Yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of those touting their superior driving skills with a manual wouldn't have the first idea of how to drive a real manual, something not synchronized and with twin
stickssticks perhaps. Or something non-synchronised with 13 or 18 gears, or even a little 5 & 2.
Your post on manual transmission is not exactly relevant since synchronized transmissions have been around since at least the 1970's. The other type you inferred with 13 or 18 or 5 &2 do not reflect the context of this thread applying to light trucks, SUV and automobile.
Originally Posted By: hatt
I do have a "manual" mode I can use and select the gear I want. I use it sometimes on trails. Never tried to use it on the road. The toggle switch is on the column so it's not so convenient.
I could not find a pic for F150, but I like mine in the column. Sure beats shifting the column up/down like in the old days! I suppose though if it was on the steering wheel like audio controls I might like that better.
But I often rest my hand in the column and work the radio. After driving stick for a couple decades I generally steer left handed, leaving my right to work radio and gears.
I do have a "manual" mode I can use and select the gear I want. I use it sometimes on trails. Never tried to use it on the road. The toggle switch is on the column so it's not so convenient.
I could not find a pic for F150, but I like mine in the column. Sure beats shifting the column up/down like in the old days! I suppose though if it was on the steering wheel like audio controls I might like that better.
But I often rest my hand in the column and work the radio. After driving stick for a couple decades I generally steer left handed, leaving my right to work radio and gears.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Now if they would just give us a "hold" mode that would not shift out of that gear unless engine underspend or overspeed parameters are met.
I thought Fords used to do that? maybe in the three and four speed days anyhow. Selecting second would start in second.
Sometimes I would like that mode too, but usually when I am in top gear and I know I will crest the hill but in a moment. Very often I don't mind losing speed on a hill, not holding up traffic behind me and I would rather take the mpg.
Now if they would just give us a "hold" mode that would not shift out of that gear unless engine underspend or overspeed parameters are met.
I thought Fords used to do that? maybe in the three and four speed days anyhow. Selecting second would start in second.
Sometimes I would like that mode too, but usually when I am in top gear and I know I will crest the hill but in a moment. Very often I don't mind losing speed on a hill, not holding up traffic behind me and I would rather take the mpg.
The ZF in my truck is always in the right gear, or if its caught quickly corrects.
GM needs to move one generation ahead, the newer auto's are fantastic.
I have a manual mode but never use it, its a waste of time the transmission is always doing what I would have done anyway.
Hills are a perfect example. My buddies Suburban will race to 6th pulling up a steep hill we have only to lug and downshift. My ZF stays around the middle maybe 5th all the way up at 3k, and won't up shift until the crest. It will also drag that gear down the other side, while the Suburban is again in top gear and your on the brakes.
GM needs to move one generation ahead, the newer auto's are fantastic.
I have a manual mode but never use it, its a waste of time the transmission is always doing what I would have done anyway.
Hills are a perfect example. My buddies Suburban will race to 6th pulling up a steep hill we have only to lug and downshift. My ZF stays around the middle maybe 5th all the way up at 3k, and won't up shift until the crest. It will also drag that gear down the other side, while the Suburban is again in top gear and your on the brakes.
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The ZF in my truck is always in the right gear, or if its caught quickly corrects.
GM needs to move one generation ahead, the newer auto's are fantastic.
I have a manual mode but never use it, its a waste of time the transmission is always doing what I would have done anyway.
Hills are a perfect example. My buddies Suburban will race to 6th pulling up a steep hill we have only to lug and downshift. My ZF stays around the middle maybe 5th all the way up at 3k, and won't up shift until the crest. It will also drag that gear down the other side, while the Suburban is again in top gear and your on the brakes.
So how does the auto know when you don't want it to add some engine braking?
Our new CRV loves adding engine braking in a lower gear too, but I nearly never need it, so now I have to hit the gas to make it upshift??? The old dumb autotrans were atleast predictable. Atleast I can still pop in N to get some free mileage down the hills...
Automatics still have a place of course, but until they link it up with a camera, Gps, and road data including speed limits and slopes, it's going to be in the wrong gear very often... That's just a fact of it guessing what it should do, based on a fraction of the data it needs to make a smarter decision.
The ZF in my truck is always in the right gear, or if its caught quickly corrects.
GM needs to move one generation ahead, the newer auto's are fantastic.
I have a manual mode but never use it, its a waste of time the transmission is always doing what I would have done anyway.
Hills are a perfect example. My buddies Suburban will race to 6th pulling up a steep hill we have only to lug and downshift. My ZF stays around the middle maybe 5th all the way up at 3k, and won't up shift until the crest. It will also drag that gear down the other side, while the Suburban is again in top gear and your on the brakes.
So how does the auto know when you don't want it to add some engine braking?
Our new CRV loves adding engine braking in a lower gear too, but I nearly never need it, so now I have to hit the gas to make it upshift??? The old dumb autotrans were atleast predictable. Atleast I can still pop in N to get some free mileage down the hills...
Automatics still have a place of course, but until they link it up with a camera, Gps, and road data including speed limits and slopes, it's going to be in the wrong gear very often... That's just a fact of it guessing what it should do, based on a fraction of the data it needs to make a smarter decision.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Atleast I can still pop in N to get some free mileage down the hills...
So, rather than leaving it in gear and letting the ECU cut off the fuel while it engine brakes, you put it in N and burn fuel to keep it idling?
How does that give 'free mileage'? I'm sure there must be some specific circumstances where accelerating down the hill before climbing the next may work out more economical (if you don't get a speeding ticket), but it seems unlikely in the general case.
Atleast I can still pop in N to get some free mileage down the hills...
So, rather than leaving it in gear and letting the ECU cut off the fuel while it engine brakes, you put it in N and burn fuel to keep it idling?
How does that give 'free mileage'? I'm sure there must be some specific circumstances where accelerating down the hill before climbing the next may work out more economical (if you don't get a speeding ticket), but it seems unlikely in the general case.
I have heard of some not liking the braking effect of coasting in gear. I bet some cars do not coast in fuel cutoff as well as others--but sometimes you want braking, and other times you do not.
World would be a better place if we could just pick our own gears. Call me cheap but I would rather use my brains to pick the right gear than pay for the ecu that could do it for me.
A torque convertor plus full manual control...
World would be a better place if we could just pick our own gears. Call me cheap but I would rather use my brains to pick the right gear than pay for the ecu that could do it for me.
A torque convertor plus full manual control...
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The ZF in my truck is always in the right gear, or if its caught quickly corrects.
GM needs to move one generation ahead, the newer auto's are fantastic.
I have a manual mode but never use it, its a waste of time the transmission is always doing what I would have done anyway.
Hills are a perfect example. My buddies Suburban will race to 6th pulling up a steep hill we have only to lug and downshift. My ZF stays around the middle maybe 5th all the way up at 3k, and won't up shift until the crest. It will also drag that gear down the other side, while the Suburban is again in top gear and your on the brakes.
So how does the auto know when you don't want it to add some engine braking?
Our new CRV loves adding engine braking in a lower gear too, but I nearly never need it, so now I have to hit the gas to make it upshift??? The old dumb autotrans were atleast predictable. Atleast I can still pop in N to get some free mileage down the hills...
Automatics still have a place of course, but until they link it up with a camera, Gps, and road data including speed limits and slopes, it's going to be in the wrong gear very often... That's just a fact of it guessing what it should do, based on a fraction of the data it needs to make a smarter decision.
I suspect it gets inputs from the trucks other systems:
Brakes
Engine output
driver inputs ie steering, throttle, braking.
It also must be able to figure out the angle that the truck is at because it certainly seems to be able to figure out when to downshift and when not to.
It also has a fairly intelligent learning curve based on historical data of driver inputs.
On a long hill if you give it throttle input it won't do much, but if you start to brake the transmission will jump right in line with what you are trying to do. Screwing with it by putting it in neutral down a hill is an awful idea.
The biggest thing I have had to learn is to stop lifting to get it to up shift. I'm so used to older transmissions where you could lift and kind of dictate the up shifts. This gear box doesn't respond to that you just slow down.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The ZF in my truck is always in the right gear, or if its caught quickly corrects.
GM needs to move one generation ahead, the newer auto's are fantastic.
I have a manual mode but never use it, its a waste of time the transmission is always doing what I would have done anyway.
Hills are a perfect example. My buddies Suburban will race to 6th pulling up a steep hill we have only to lug and downshift. My ZF stays around the middle maybe 5th all the way up at 3k, and won't up shift until the crest. It will also drag that gear down the other side, while the Suburban is again in top gear and your on the brakes.
So how does the auto know when you don't want it to add some engine braking?
Our new CRV loves adding engine braking in a lower gear too, but I nearly never need it, so now I have to hit the gas to make it upshift??? The old dumb autotrans were atleast predictable. Atleast I can still pop in N to get some free mileage down the hills...
Automatics still have a place of course, but until they link it up with a camera, Gps, and road data including speed limits and slopes, it's going to be in the wrong gear very often... That's just a fact of it guessing what it should do, based on a fraction of the data it needs to make a smarter decision.
I suspect it gets inputs from the trucks other systems:
Brakes
Engine output
driver inputs ie steering, throttle, braking.
It also must be able to figure out the angle that the truck is at because it certainly seems to be able to figure out when to downshift and when not to.
It also has a fairly intelligent learning curve based on historical data of driver inputs.
On a long hill if you give it throttle input it won't do much, but if you start to brake the transmission will jump right in line with what you are trying to do. Screwing with it by putting it in neutral down a hill is an awful idea.
The biggest thing I have had to learn is to stop lifting to get it to up shift. I'm so used to older transmissions where you could lift and kind of dictate the up shifts. This gear box doesn't respond to that you just slow down.
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I like a good manual transmission, but they get annoying to drive in heavy traffic. That is one reason I chose my car. If I preferred a manual transmission, I might drive a Subaru.
My Camry was built in Japan not the USA. I am pretty sure that is the only reason I was able to get one with a 5 spd manual. The down side is that it is a pain in the rear for a lot of parts. O2 sensors, mastery cylinder, hubs and bearing etc....are different for the Japanese versus American made Camry.
Upside I have just under 150K miles on my car and the clutch is doing just fine and the transmission is doing just fine. I drive my car like I just stole it and I get no less then 29MPG and my driving is 50/50.If I do more HWY driving I get 32-35MPG with an old outdated 5SPD manual.
Automatics have never been able to routinely match a manual for long term durability unless pampered with plenty of filter and fluid changes.Get them hot just once and it is all over. The ruber o-rings and seals just wear out too fast.
Upside I have just under 150K miles on my car and the clutch is doing just fine and the transmission is doing just fine. I drive my car like I just stole it and I get no less then 29MPG and my driving is 50/50.If I do more HWY driving I get 32-35MPG with an old outdated 5SPD manual.
Automatics have never been able to routinely match a manual for long term durability unless pampered with plenty of filter and fluid changes.Get them hot just once and it is all over. The ruber o-rings and seals just wear out too fast.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Here we go-another manual transmission thread where all of the manual transmission chest-thumpers come out in droves, as if driving a manual requires any sort of special skill or advanced knowledge. It really doesn't-even my 60-something wife drove our manual Subaru until we sold it last winter.
Driving a modern, dumbed down manual transmission is no more difficult than driving an automatic-it is just a slightly different skill. Yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of those touting their superior driving skills with a manual wouldn't have the first idea of how to drive a real manual, something not synchronized and with twin sticks perhaps. Or something non-synchronised with 13 or 18 gears, or even a little 5 & 2.
It's not difficult to double declutch or do mental arithmetic until you learn which gear is where and when, you make it sound like driving a manual is difficult.
It's not more difficult than driving automatic, it's easy! I think treason people hate on automatics in these threads is because of how slow they are to react. They don't look half a mile down the road and preempt conditions. They don't let you select the gear before you get to the corner. There's more to go wrong with them. They allow for more driver distraction.
People who learn in automatics have a reduced skill set because they don't know how to rev match and don't understand the relationship between gear ration, road speed and tractability. They probably don't know what synchronisers are or why we have them, and they especially don't know how to double de clutch.
Think microwave dinner vs. 5 star Michelin haute cuisine... They both put food in your belly and they both end up in the sewer, but one is the easy lazy way and one is the forward thinking, rewarding due to skill and foresight way of doing things.
Now if we could just get manual steering with our manual gearboxes!
Wouldn't that be entertaining-using both hand and both feet?
I still havent come to understand some things- such as, why do 2500lb cars have power assisted steering.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Here we go-another manual transmission thread where all of the manual transmission chest-thumpers come out in droves, as if driving a manual requires any sort of special skill or advanced knowledge. It really doesn't-even my 60-something wife drove our manual Subaru until we sold it last winter.
Driving a modern, dumbed down manual transmission is no more difficult than driving an automatic-it is just a slightly different skill. Yet I'm willing to bet that the majority of those touting their superior driving skills with a manual wouldn't have the first idea of how to drive a real manual, something not synchronized and with twin sticks perhaps. Or something non-synchronised with 13 or 18 gears, or even a little 5 & 2.
It's not difficult to double declutch or do mental arithmetic until you learn which gear is where and when, you make it sound like driving a manual is difficult.
It's not more difficult than driving automatic, it's easy! I think treason people hate on automatics in these threads is because of how slow they are to react. They don't look half a mile down the road and preempt conditions. They don't let you select the gear before you get to the corner. There's more to go wrong with them. They allow for more driver distraction.
People who learn in automatics have a reduced skill set because they don't know how to rev match and don't understand the relationship between gear ration, road speed and tractability. They probably don't know what synchronisers are or why we have them, and they especially don't know how to double de clutch.
Think microwave dinner vs. 5 star Michelin haute cuisine... They both put food in your belly and they both end up in the sewer, but one is the easy lazy way and one is the forward thinking, rewarding due to skill and foresight way of doing things.
Now if we could just get manual steering with our manual gearboxes!
Wouldn't that be entertaining-using both hand and both feet?
I still havent come to understand some things- such as, why do 2500lb cars have power assisted steering.
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