I was looking at a Mann Mercedes filter against a ceiling light and there are tiny holes in it. Like visible tiny holes that can be seen. I was going to throw it away and happened to put it to the light to see how "dense" it was, and I see these holes. Like stars of light coming through. I believe the Boss uses media very similar, possibly the same. I may try to post pictures later. Have people tried this on other filter media? I had cut the element to spread it out to see the plastic mesh. It's a total fail as far as I am concerned. This was a new filter from a Mercedes box. It would be interesting to try this on the Boss media. Someone did cut one open.
Mann mesh backed media holes
- Thread starter goodtimes
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Any chance of any pictures? Made in USA, or EU (Germany)?
I tried, by eye I can see probably dozens of holes scattered in a section, the camera isn't picking them up in the daytime. In a garage or somewhere where it is darker , against a bright light, it is easier to see. I am surprised, from Mann Germany. This is a Mann filter from a Mercedes dealer. in a Mercedes box.
That's Mann fleece media with the plastic backing. The Boss has basically the same media. Look at the Boss cut open threads, and there are pictures of the media and backing.
Interested why you think the Mann EvoTop fleece filter is fail? If I had a car that used a cartridge type filter, then the Mann EvoTop fleece is what I would be using.
Picture of Boss media below.
Interested why you think the Mann EvoTop fleece filter is fail? If I had a car that used a cartridge type filter, then the Mann EvoTop fleece is what I would be using.
Picture of Boss media below.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I tried, by eye I can see probably dozens of holes scattered in a section, the camera isn't picking them up in the daytime. In a garage or somewhere where it is darker , against a bright light, it is easier to see. I am surprised, from Mann Germany. This is a Mann filter from a Mercedes dealer. in a Mercedes box.
The short answer is that there's nothing wrong with it. The "holes" you see are probably what accounts for that .1% at 20 microns that gets through. And they'll fill in as the oil wets the filter and particles plug them, which is why filter efficiency improves as the filter loads up a little.
I tried, by eye I can see probably dozens of holes scattered in a section, the camera isn't picking them up in the daytime. In a garage or somewhere where it is darker , against a bright light, it is easier to see. I am surprised, from Mann Germany. This is a Mann filter from a Mercedes dealer. in a Mercedes box.
The short answer is that there's nothing wrong with it. The "holes" you see are probably what accounts for that .1% at 20 microns that gets through. And they'll fill in as the oil wets the filter and particles plug them, which is why filter efficiency improves as the filter loads up a little.
For those who remember focal plane cloth shutters when they get holes in them from the sun, it's like that. Later I will go to a darkened area and shine a light through to show it. That's why it is a fail in my book. Some holes I can see as holes, which is bad since human vision is not that acute. As for bigger holes fill first, that has been discussed here quite a bit. This pic does have visible holes but hard to make out as the light in the room is too bright. There's a nice one just below center. There aren't a few holes, there are many holes. I am amazed at this defect, really.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I tried, by eye I can see probably dozens of holes scattered in a section, the camera isn't picking them up in the daytime. In a garage or somewhere where it is darker , against a bright light, it is easier to see. I am surprised, from Mann Germany. This is a Mann filter from a Mercedes dealer. in a Mercedes box.
I bought these at Mercedes and did use them. I have said all good things about them on this site. They look great. Mercedes approves, on and on. The light has to be from behind, bright, and better if the room is darkened.
I tried, by eye I can see probably dozens of holes scattered in a section, the camera isn't picking them up in the daytime. In a garage or somewhere where it is darker , against a bright light, it is easier to see. I am surprised, from Mann Germany. This is a Mann filter from a Mercedes dealer. in a Mercedes box.
I bought these at Mercedes and did use them. I have said all good things about them on this site. They look great. Mercedes approves, on and on. The light has to be from behind, bright, and better if the room is darkened.
Those holes are huge I wouldn't use it.
Those holes do not instill confidence in that product for me.
Those holes do not instill confidence in that product for me.
small holes get larger, larger holes get larger, all in the envron of 60 psi+ psi
Originally Posted By: steve20
small holes get larger, larger holes get larger, all in the envron of 60 psi+ psi
The only pressure on the media is the delta-p across the media from the flow of oil, and it's more like 5~8 PSI, not 60.
small holes get larger, larger holes get larger, all in the envron of 60 psi+ psi
The only pressure on the media is the delta-p across the media from the flow of oil, and it's more like 5~8 PSI, not 60.
I had a heck of a time trying to get a picture, but by eye there are many holes shining through, like little stars. Surely hundreds in the whole thing. It isn't just a couple like I show here. There are some about in the middle in the picture. It's all exhausting, so whatever it's worth, is it. Maybe it is something to look at on filter media if it hasn't been going on already. I will be definitely be putting some Ultra media to this pinhole test soon as I have an opened filter. I guess that's what they are, pinholes. The seem to be lined up in places like from manufacturing stresses
I still don't think "pinholes" are nearly the issue you're making them out to be. The problem is that they may look "big," but really just as long as they are bigger than a light wavelength, your eye will see the light coming through them even though they're much smaller than something you could actually see without a microscope. Its an illusion because you have a bright light source behind then media, and light energy can get through those tiny holes. Your eye registers it as a bright spot, even though its coming from a microscopic source. If you inverted the problem and had a black dot the same size as that hole on a perfeclty white sheet of paper, you wouldn't be able to see it without magnification.
Time to bust out your electron microscope & see how big they are!
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I still don't think "pinholes" are nearly the issue you're making them out to be. The problem is that they may look "big," but really just as long as they are bigger than a light wavelength, your eye will see the light coming through them even though they're much smaller than something you could actually see without a microscope. Its an illusion because you have a bright light source behind then media, and light energy can get through those tiny holes. Your eye registers it as a bright spot, even though its coming from a microscopic source. If you inverted the problem and had a black dot the same size as that hole on a perfeclty white sheet of paper, you wouldn't be able to see it without magnification.
Good points. There are some holes visible in the picture and in the filter with visible size, it seems to me. Light shouldn't be directly passing through unstopped. Diffracted pinpoints of light shouldn't be seen I wouldn't think. I just reported what I observed, that's it. And I am pretty sorry I took the time to do it, but your comments were good. I do have some microscopes including a Wild Makroscope which using transmitted light maybe could see this better. I don't think it is time well spent though. I'll just talk now, no more show and tell. I do like show and tell better myself. I probably had more things to show, but hey why rock the fav products arguing boat.
I still don't think "pinholes" are nearly the issue you're making them out to be. The problem is that they may look "big," but really just as long as they are bigger than a light wavelength, your eye will see the light coming through them even though they're much smaller than something you could actually see without a microscope. Its an illusion because you have a bright light source behind then media, and light energy can get through those tiny holes. Your eye registers it as a bright spot, even though its coming from a microscopic source. If you inverted the problem and had a black dot the same size as that hole on a perfeclty white sheet of paper, you wouldn't be able to see it without magnification.
Good points. There are some holes visible in the picture and in the filter with visible size, it seems to me. Light shouldn't be directly passing through unstopped. Diffracted pinpoints of light shouldn't be seen I wouldn't think. I just reported what I observed, that's it. And I am pretty sorry I took the time to do it, but your comments were good. I do have some microscopes including a Wild Makroscope which using transmitted light maybe could see this better. I don't think it is time well spent though. I'll just talk now, no more show and tell. I do like show and tell better myself. I probably had more things to show, but hey why rock the fav products arguing boat.
I held some Toyota media to the light, same kind of starlight holes as the Mann filter, put some Ultra media up, nothing. I do see the two layer construction easily on the Ultra, neither pass light as far as I can tell. So maybe there is some real benefit to the efficiency tests, seems to correlate a little bit. The Toyota media is about ten years old, the new ones have a lighter color, they may have changed it. Or maybe in 10 years media darkens.
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