Major power grid issues in Portugal, Spain and parts of France

There is a fantastic YouTube channel that I have watched a lot of videos of that does great vids on power generation etc. well worth a watch!

How does the power grid work? -


What is a black start of the power grid? -



🙂


I love his channel. He breaks it down so well that even a dummy like me can understand it. Just straight facts, great examples, and no personal beliefs. His video about the Texas power outages hooked me.
 
I thought that France built a bunch of extra nuclear expecting to export to neighbors, especially Germany which shut down all of their nuclear.

Unlike rotating machines, solar panels can instantly accept any load from short circuit to open circuit without damage, so maybe the inverters at the solar plant were a bit hair-trigger to trip when the grid started going squirrely.
 
Mark Nelson, an energy analyst with http://radiantenergygroup.com/ posted on X 12hours ago:


SPAIN BLACKOUTS: AN ANONYMOUS EXPERT VIEW

From a deep groupchat, last night, translated from Spanish, written by an expert in transmission and distribution of power. Not my words.

"What has happened on April 28 has a well-located origin: the Aragón-Catalonia corridor, which is one of the most important electric highways in Spain. There is not only the electricity produced by our solar and wind farms in the northeast, but also the electricity that we import from France. This international interconnection, although weak (it can only contribute 3% of our demand, well below the minimum of 10% that marks the EU), in times of stress is essential to balance the network.

At 12:32 p.m., in that Aragón-Catalonia corridor there was an electric shock. What exactly does "shake" mean? It means that suddenly and abnormally, the power that flowed through those lines began to vary violently, rising and falling in a very short time. Such abrupt variability can be due to three main causes:

1. That a relay or transformer on that electric highway detects an abnormal flow of current or voltage (higher or lower than expected) and automatically disconnected to avoid burning or destroyed. This is called that "opens" a relay or switch: it jumps and cuts the passage of electricity to protect itself.

2. That the enormous concentration of renewable energy in that area (mainly solar and wind) has created an electrical resonance: electronic inverters, which synchronize current, can sometimes be amplified between them if a small voltage alteration (for example, due to clouds, strong wind or a slight failure) extends like an echo to all devices, causing widespread oscillations.

3. That a wrong control order has been sent (by mistake or attack) from the SCADA systems, disconnecting or reducing the generation of multiple hit plants. There is no confirmation of this possibility yet, but it is being investigated.

What is known is that as a consequence of that shake, the interconnection with France jumped: we were isolated just at the worst time, when the peninsula needed external support to stabilize.

Without that French help, the frequency of the peninsular network (which should always be 50 Hz exact) began to drop quickly. The frequency is like the heartbeat of the network: if it falls too much, the systems understand that the patient (the network) is collapsing and automatically disconnected so as not to self-destruct. Thus, in just five seconds, the solar and wind farms were turned off —very sensitive to frequency variations—, 15 GW of power was lost suddenly (60% of all the electricity generated at that time), and the network could not take it anymore: it was It collapsed completely, showing the Redeia Platform (REE) a "0 MW" nationwide. That does not mean that all the turbines were physically turned off, but there was no generator synchronized at the common frequency of 50 Hz. It was, for practical purposes, a country off.

To ignite a completely dead network again, one essential thing is needed: plants that can start in black, that is, without receiving energy from anywhere else. Spain has identified five large hydroelectric jumps capable of doing this. However, and here is one of the great negligences that are coming to light, three of those five groups were stopped in scheduled maintenance, by business decision supervised by the administration. Only two were operational. That made the recovery much slower and weaker than it should be in a normal contingency plan.

The result is that, after almost 10 hours, only 35% to 40% of the national supply has been recovered, and there are still large areas in the dark or under scheduled cuts.

The situation reveals a very serious underlying problem:

Spain is still an energy island: it only has 3% foreign exchange capacity compared to its total demand."...

Part 2:

"The network depends a lot on variable renewables, which are disconnected quickly in the face of any instability.

The lack of physical inertia reserves (i.e. large rotating masses such as thermal power plants or classic hydraulics) prevents the disturbances from damping.

And poor maintenance planning left without enough hydraulic muscle to respond to a crisis.

The most likely causes, with current data, are:

A combination of technical failure in protection or in synchronization, added to a serious lack of operational forecast and maintenance (probability ≈ 40%).

The possibility of an intentional cyber-physical attack remains in analysis (≈ 25% estimated probability).

Other factors such as human error, punctual atmospheric phenomenon or mixed causes complete the rest.

In short: an initial shake at the most sensitive point of the Spanish network —the Aragón-Catalonia corridor, door to Europe— left the peninsula isolated and vulnerable. The network could not sustain its own demand because it did not have sufficient assistance, nor stable physical reserve, nor enough bootable plants in black. Three of five hydroelectric jumps were out of service when they were most needed.

For this reason, Spain went out in five seconds, and that is why it still continues to light little by little, fragile, slow and exposed."
 
I certainly don’t know anything about land-based grids, but this sounds similar to when we were bringing a new generator online on a Navy ship. We had a rotational frequency gauge that we had to synchronize our genset to; we had to match frequency within like 1/2 rpm of the frequency meter before making the genset “active”, and then we would transfer the electrical load to the new genset, and then decouple the now-offline genset before stopping it for preventative maintenance. It’s definitely a finely-tuned dance!
 
I love his channel. He breaks it down so well that even a dummy like me can understand it. Just straight facts, great examples, and no personal beliefs. His video about the Texas power outages hooked me.
Exactly my thoughts on his work too! Top guy with a lot of good knowledge. 👌
 
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Question for you grid experts:

Is the inertia needed because rectifiers on edge of HVDC because it needs to "follow" an AC, and is any of the problem due to any possibility of incorrectly designed grid running AC or DC power in a "loop" or "ring" that causes chaos / oscillations?

I would imagine for solar you can just physically disconnect the source from the farm's individual panel and just "dump" the input power without causing significant problem. Would that damage the individual panels?

there's no power being generated when you disconnect a panel. well, almost no power, they will get slightly warmer. Like a battery that's diconnected doesn't produce power
 
I thought that France built a bunch of extra nuclear expecting to export to neighbors, especially Germany which shut down all of their nuclear.

Unlike rotating machines, solar panels can instantly accept any load from short circuit to open circuit without damage, so maybe the inverters at the solar plant were a bit hair-trigger to trip when the grid started going squirrely.
From Twitter:

French Nuclear Shields EU Network

"Sfen experts also note that the wave of frequency variation from Spain ended up on the European network, and firstly the French network, where the inertia of the nuclear rotating groups attenuated this phenomenon, avoiding a domino effect."
1746022820763.webp
 
Part 2:

"The network depends a lot on variable renewables, which are disconnected quickly in the face of any instability.

The lack of physical inertia reserves (i.e. large rotating masses such as thermal power plants or classic hydraulics) prevents the disturbances from damping
Interesting that he kinda buries this but this is the quiet part out loud.

Most anyone is still afraid to badmouth "green" power, so better to dance around it. And the typical news sources just can't even conceive that such power sources are anything other than super-mega-awesome so they don't report it.

I'm all for alternative power, but it's also OK to just admit it still has considerable weaknesses that must be addressed. Doesn't mean we abandon it or even disparage it -- it just means reality is reality (a tough concept for many today)
 
Interesting that he kinda buries this but this is the quiet part out loud.

Most anyone is still afraid to badmouth "green" power, so better to dance around it. And the typical news sources just can't even conceive that such power sources are anything other than super-mega-awesome so they don't report it.

I'm all for alternative power, but it's also OK to just admit it still has considerable weaknesses that must be addressed. Doesn't mean we abandon it or even disparage it -- it just means reality is reality (a tough concept for many today)
Think Jane Fonda and all
 
there's no power being generated when you disconnect a panel. well, almost no power, they will get slightly warmer. Like a battery that's diconnected doesn't produce power
I understand that, what I am asking is whether the voltage of an under the sun disconnected panel will be too high and cause problem (if they are connected in series).
 
Open circuit solar array voltage is about 20% higher than the optimal operating (max power) voltage. It is not difficult to allow for this in the system design. If the inverter max input voltage is spec too low because someone thought they could add a few more panels in series, the inverter will trip or burn out in a no load situation.

AC grids were great 120 years ago because they are what the technology of that time allowed. Even then they were difficult to control and prone to sudden collapse on a disturbance. A lot of work has been done on communication around the grid so that the needs of the overall grid are known to power sources by means beyond observing their local voltage and frequency. This apparently was not extended to the solar systems. The lesson here may be that you can (mostly) get away with a "hand to mouth" transmission model from large, relatively stable sources like fossil, nuclear, and hydro, but simply hanging a decentralized bunch of solar and wind on is going to risk stability. Storage entities must exist, even if they have only capacity of seconds or minutes they can stabilize an AC grid. Of course the economics favors the simplest system possible-- hand to mouth, and no communication-- any provision that functions only to improve reliability is a waste of money.
 
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They are not even sure what caused it, if it was strictly atmospheric or terrorist related.
It just goes to show how frail electric systems are.

Even in this country, where we are promoting electric vehicle use. Less than 5 million cars on the road out of 300 million and yet almost every household in this country is told to conserve energy certain periods of the day. I think we have a lot of things to work on.

Anyway, right now overseas here we are estimates up to a week to get it all put back together
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_European_power_outage

https://www.nbcnews.com/world/spain...ates-widespread-blackouts-cause-ha-rcna203274

Power goes out of country for unknown reason and we make it about EVs in USA?
 
Power goes out of country for unknown reason and we make it about EVs in USA?
I guess you missed the first paragraph.

In the second paragraph I bring up that the grid in this country (many states) is pushed to the limit as it is

Just thought I would explain in case I wasn’t clear 🙂 EVs run on electricity, USA short on electricity.
Tech company’s can’t even expand without hunting for it and now we want to replace gas cars with electric?

More demand, more unreliable solar and wind = more stress on an overloaded system creates an environment for failure.
 
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I certainly don’t know anything about land-based grids, but this sounds similar to when we were bringing a new generator online on a Navy ship. We had a rotational frequency gauge that we had to synchronize our genset to; we had to match frequency within like 1/2 rpm of the frequency meter before making the genset “active”, and then we would transfer the electrical load to the new genset, and then decouple the now-offline genset before stopping it for preventative maintenance. It’s definitely a finely-tuned dance!

For sure.

For anyone that wants to see what happens when a generator is connected to the grid and it isn't in synch. There was a test that was done some years ago investigating the ability of a hacker to disrupt our power supply. Really all they need to do is be able to disconnect the generator for a short period of time and then reconnect it. Since it is disconnected, the generator frequency drifts out of synch with the grid, at which point they slam the contacts back shut and the generator instantly re-synchs causing a massive physical shock to the system. Something has to eventually give. They did the test with a 'small' diesel genset, but if you did it to a large steam plant generator the result would probably be worse.

That's just part of the reason why something goes amiss on the system the generators tend to fall off and lock out until they can be brought back in an orderly manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Generator_Test

 
For sure.

For anyone that wants to see what happens when a generator is connected to the grid and it isn't in synch. There was a test that was done some years ago investigating the ability of a hacker to disrupt our power supply. Really all they need to do is be able to disconnect the generator for a short period of time and then reconnect it. Since it is disconnected, the generator frequency drifts out of synch with the grid, at which point they slam the contacts back shut and the generator instantly re-synchs causing a massive physical shock to the system. Something has to eventually give. They did the test with a 'small' diesel genset, but if you did it to a large steam plant generator the result would probably be worse.

That's just part of the reason why something goes amiss on the system the generators tend to fall off and lock out until they can be brought back in an orderly manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Generator_Test


You are not going to trip out a steam plant generator and then " slam it shut " . Too many things have to happen in the right sequence and it doesn't happen quickly .
 
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