Mag-Hytec cover/Amsoil/Friction Modifier?

[UNC151]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
So, if your truck runs below 210F virtually all the time, you are wasting energy running a 140 grade oil.

Jim, you have much more information that I ever will regarding axles and I certainly trust your judgment and knowledge having asked for your advice more than once. The issue here would be yes, I may be running below 210F about 70% of the time, but I do not want to change the oil for the 30% of the time when I am not.

Obviously "seat of the pants" measurements are invalid and I will not know without a temp gauge, but I had some >1000 mile non-stop tows in 106 degree heat (at speeds between 60 and 70MPH) and I have to think 75w-140 was needed--if for nothing else but "comfort factor". I have about 60K remaining on the warranty, so until that point, I will remain with the 75w-140; perhaps on the next OC (which should be in the 110K range) I will play with lower viscosity oils.

As always, thanks for your knowledge and willingness to share it!

PS - nice website on axles. Is the Ford axle a Dana or a Visteon? I was looking at the 2010 production numbers and did not see Ford listed as such.

Here is the link to the paper that you mentioned Lubrizol TowProof™ Technology Improves
Durability and Cuts Fuel Consumption

 

[Pablo]

Jim - nice write up, but there is a huge fly in ointment as people say. The problem is you talk about 75W-90 as if all 75W-90 gear oils have the same 100° viscosity. I wish you could re-write just what you wrote but use 14 cSt, 17 cSt, 20, 23, 30 cSt, etc.....now this may seem trivial but it's not and it's the reason you often see me recommending 75W-110 when you may be thinking 75W-90. It has everything to do with the NEW SAE J306:

http://www.lubrizol.com/DrivelineAdditives/AutomotiveGearOil/J306Specifications.html

 

[INDYMAC]

This is a great discussion, and I always enjoy what Jim Allen has to say about real world findings and experiences. A lot of times I think manufacturers of axles expect the gear oil to shear, and hedge their bets on this aspect when they recommend multi-viscosity lubes for their equipment. Some manufacturers still recommend straight grade viscosities (Honda, Toyota, and possibly others.

The most recent UOA I've seen of Amsoil SG 75W-140 sheared to 17.90 cSt at 100C in 5K miles (2003 Honda S2000 Torsen LSD).

So my point is, have you considered shearing into the equation when you pick a gear oil other than the factory recommended?

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Jim - nice write up, but there is a huge fly in ointment as people say. The problem is you talk about 75W-90 as if all 75W-90 gear oils have the same 100° viscosity. I wish you could re-write just what you wrote but use 14 cSt, 17 cSt, 20, 23, 30 cSt, etc.....now this may seem trivial but it's not and it's the reason you often see me recommending 75W-110 when you may be thinking 75W-90. It has everything to do with the NEW SAE J306:

http://www.lubrizol.com/DrivelineAdditives/AutomotiveGearOil/J306Specifications.html




Pablo: Your nitpick is correct and justified... and I considered doing just that ... but what I put down was as much for those who will read it later as those reading it now. Unfortunately a lot of people coming to BITOG are still obsessed with "weights" and use them as their frame of reference. (Plus I whipped that out between my "real" work and it was long enough!). I used the Mobil oils as a reference example because they were handy specs but figured when I layed it out, the rest of you could quickly name that tune and put in your own numbers, whatever they may be.

The 75W110 does indeed split the difference between the 90 and 140 grades but, again, all one needs do is plug in the 40 and 100C numbers in to Mr. Widman's wonderful calculator and see the effect of temperature.

Does anyone else besides Amsoil make a 75W110?

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4

Is the Ford axle a Dana or a Visteon? I was looking at the 2010 production numbers and did not see Ford listed as such.


2010FX4: With a few exceptions, Ford is still building their light truck axles. Visteon is gone as an axle maker, however, in name only. The Visteon axle side was once the Sterling Axle division of Ford but was sold off back in the '90s. It reverted back to Ford in about 2006-2007 (IIRC) when Visteon got into financial trouble. I was in the plant early in the 2000s when it was Visteon but now they are back to calling it the Sterling Axle Plant and it's in Sterling Hts. MI. Ford's axles are generally high quality pieces. Historically, they have used better materials... for example, SAE 1050 vs the more common 1040 or 1035 carbon steel axles shafts used by Dana and GM (1050 is about 27 percent stronger that 1040 with the right heat treat). Even outside sourced axles were often built to stringent Ford special requirements. The very first open knuckle front axle was built at Ford request by Dana, namely the D30 used on the early Ford Bronco that debuted in '65 as a 66 model.

I don't fault your logic in running a 75W140 oil and at least it's a syn so the hit isn't as bad as it could be. Consider that after you install a Mag-Hytec cover, you will have knocked at least 15 degrees off your oil temp and that may make 75W90 doable. Why not spring for a axle temp gauge to go with the cover (both Isspro and AutoMeter make them... I have one of each) and start monitoring your temps? If nothing else, you will have something to do on long trips but you may discover you can run a lighter oil, even towing. I'd be interested to know what a 9.75 axle temp runs in any case (a bigger ring gear will run cooler than a smaller at the sam load).

INDYMAC: Good point. It hasn't been an issue for me but it might in specialized applications like the S2000 or the Titan trucks, but don't all of those "problem" axles tend to run hot anyway, which to me would be a clue to watch close. Oxidation probably takes a big bite to with continuous high temps. I know a guy who used to be a research engineer at Dana (he's not at an other axle company) and he said that if you have a temp gauge, the first indicator of the oil going is that your "normal" oil temps start to go up. Obviously to catch this, you have to know what "normal" is for the ambient situation and be watching closely enough to catch it. Obviously, that's something only the raging geeks and gauge-o-haulics like me will care about.

 

[UNC151]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I don't fault your logic in running a 75W140 oil and at least it's a syn so the hit isn't as bad as it could be. Why not spring for a axle temp gauge to go with the cover (both Isspro and AutoMeter make them... I have one of each) and start monitoring your temps?

As (perhaps viewed by some) gullible as it sounds, I trust that Ford has correctly engineered the application. Ford factory rear lube for this axle is 75w-140 synthetic and they state in the OM that "Your vehicle’s rear axle is filled with a synthetic rear axle lubricant and is considered lubricated for life. These lubricants do not need to be checked or changed unless a leak is suspected, service is required or the axle assembly has been submerged in water. The axle lubricant should be changed any time the rear axle has been submerged in water". However, I knew going into the purchase of this truck that I intended to put many miles on it (basically until the wheels fall off) and with a fair amount of them towing, so I planned on changing the drive train fluids on a fairly consistent scale: 15K + UOA (to remove the break-in metals), 50K + UOA (decide next OC based upon 50K findings). I want to extend the life of the truck to the fullest extent possible, but also only to the level of cost necessary without going overboard.

You have piqued my interest on the gauges—I had some muscle cars in the past and I used AutoMeter Pro-Comp liquid filled mechanical gauges on them. I am reading your article on Four Wheeler and the idea of swappable gauges and recordable data definitely is appealing and efficient. I will be checking into the IssPro gauges and see how I can fit them into the 2010 FX4’s dash.

Again, Jim thanks for your knowledge, time, and eagerness to share!

 

[Jeff_in_VABch]

2010 4X4

What you need for establishing baseline temperatures is a bi-metal stem thermometer to suit your covers thread size on the temp port. These are direct reading dial thermometers which are accurate and inexpensive. You do need to stick your head under the truck to check the temperature, but after you have established your operating temperature range, I would remove it anyway.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
The most recent UOA I've seen of Amsoil SG 75W-140 sheared to 17.90 cSt at 100C in 5K miles (2003 Honda S2000 Torsen LSD).

So my point is, have you considered shearing into the equation when you pick a gear oil other than the factory recommended?


If ring and pinion whine is ANY indication at all (is it??!!) of shearing (fairly quiet when fresh, faint decel whine at ~ 1500 miles, loud scream on decel at ~3-5K), then yes, both the SVO and SVT have sheared significantly in my app in relitively few miles.

But, they both still took longer to get to this point than anything else I've tried yet!

 

[UNC151]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
The most recent UOA I've seen of Amsoil SG 75W-140 sheared to 17.90 cSt at 100C in 5K miles (2003 Honda S2000 Torsen LSD).

Is that normal for the Honda? It sheared down to a 90W oil?

 

[INDYMAC]

I've seen a hand full of used oil analysis for the S2000 (3 I've done myself). I don't recall this much shearing before, but I've heard it's common for SAE 75/80W-140 gear oils to shear a grade in general.

Here are some examples of other gear oils I've seen:

RL 75W-90 GL5 after 15K miles 16.53 cSt at 100C.
LE 607 SAE 90 GL5 after 8K miles 17.83 cSt at 100C.
LE 607 SAE 90 GL5 after 11.5K miles 18.79 cST at 100C.
LE 1605 SAE 110 GL5 after 6K miles 19.69 cSt at 100C.

Honda recommends SAE 90 GL5 or 6 (pre and post J306). Canada is allowed to use 80W-90 during the winter.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Pablo: Your nitpick is correct and justified... and I considered doing just that ...

The 75W110 does indeed split the difference between the 90 and 140 grades but, again, all one needs do is plug in the 40 and 100C numbers in to Mr. Widman's wonderful calculator and see the effect of temperature.

Does anyone else besides Amsoil make a 75W110?



You do understand my point though - a thermal/stress situation may require a 110, the book says 90 and I'm recommending 110 and people still use 90 because that's what the book says. This is typical. The problem is, the manufacturer had 17 (or upper teens in mind) for such a situation, not a NEW 90 that STARTS under 15@100°C.

Yes.

 

[Jeff_in_VABch]

The ONLY good test Amsoil has ever had conducted and published was the 75W90 gear oil comparison. That was very informative, a must read.

I wish they would have also done it with 75W140. Maybe they did and the results prevented it from being published.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch


I wish they would have also done it with 75W140. Maybe they did and the results prevented it from being published.


Why would you write such a thing????

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Running the thick oil wont hurt anything though, just reduce driven powen and fuel economy. Probably equivalent to running a 10W40 oil in the engine.

How would you calculate this? I would venture to guess that it is nearly indiscernible and that driving variations would more than surpass any loss/gain by using thicker/thinner oil in the axle.

I towed over 6K miles last summer fully loaded and in 100+ heat. I trust that Ford has done the vernacular and I will stay with 75w-140.


Citgo has done testing and has concluded that 75w-90 is more than enough for all but the most extreme applications. Many times simply dropping from a 75w-140 to a 75w-90 will lower temperatures enough that the viscosity difference at operating temperature is minimal.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Running the thick oil wont hurt anything though, just reduce driven powen and fuel economy. Probably equivalent to running a 10W40 oil in the engine.

How would you calculate this? I would venture to guess that it is nearly indiscernible and that driving variations would more than surpass any loss/gain by using thicker/thinner oil in the axle.

I towed over 6K miles last summer fully loaded and in 100+ heat. I trust that Ford has done the vernacular and I will stay with 75w-140.


Citgo has done testing and has concluded that 75w-90 is more than enough for all but the most extreme applications. Many times simply dropping from a 75w-140 to a 75w-90 will lower temperatures enough that the viscosity difference at operating temperature is minimal.


Chevro: If this is a published test, I'd sure like to see it. Can you give me any hints where I might find it?

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Running the thick oil wont hurt anything though, just reduce driven powen and fuel economy. Probably equivalent to running a 10W40 oil in the engine.

How would you calculate this? I would venture to guess that it is nearly indiscernible and that driving variations would more than surpass any loss/gain by using thicker/thinner oil in the axle.

I towed over 6K miles last summer fully loaded and in 100+ heat. I trust that Ford has done the vernacular and I will stay with 75w-140.


Citgo has done testing and has concluded that 75w-90 is more than enough for all but the most extreme applications. Many times simply dropping from a 75w-140 to a 75w-90 will lower temperatures enough that the viscosity difference at operating temperature is minimal.


Chevro: If this is a published test, I'd sure like to see it. Can you give me any hints where I might find it?


I don't know if it is or not. Citgo gave a presentation to our salesmen about it.