Mack Truck laying off 100s in PA & MD

Status
Not open for further replies.
As the loyal voice of opposition, I disagree. As you posted, poor countries are not going to be large consumers or exporters.

However, the poor countries economic well being is linked to global stability, peace vs war, and resource management. Many poor countries possess valuable natural resources. There is so much more...

You and others may disagree with my point of view, and that's fair. The numbers matter.
You’re taking my quote, and my intent, completely out of context. The point was about the size of a particular market and one poster was making a claim that the market depended on population. The market absolutely doesn’t.

Fairness, equity, treaties, dignity, relationships - these are completely separate discussions, so don’t take my comments and apply them where they were neither germane nor intended.
 
Come to Silicon Valley. You will see the most diverse population anywhere. We import so much talent. We need more. And you know what a giant Silicon Valley and CA is in the world economy.

Yes, high tech was exported. Lotsa reasons for that. But going back does not solve today. The Chips and Science Act does. The biggest obstacle TSMC AZ is dealing with is the severe lack of local talent.

And no, fair trade is not the idea of world wide tariffs. If it is, it is sure making a mess of a great economy.

You asked me to answer your question; I did with sound, long lasting solutions.
I have done work in your valley - long ago, on the manufacturing side, when they did that there. Nice place to visit. I am likely viewed as too old to work there now. Its OK, I think I will stay in Charleston and automate factories here.

Your "solutions" are "Just learn to code." Where have I heard that before? Its not real solution. Even if we did, the Chinese would just steel the IP like they do now. Like I said, we have lots of engineers we graduate and don't use already. Graduating more does nothing for us - maybe creates more student loan debt.

The chips act was a bribe to CEO's to bring jobs back to America. Were broke. Thats the whole point - we don't have money to bribe more CEO's. Tariff does the same thing as a bribe. Only difference is what order the money gets paid.

No, there are no ready made workers in Phoenix for TSMC to hire. We haven't made chips here in decades. They will have to train some. The people in Taiwan didn't intuitively know how 30 years ago either. Once we have some trained workers, maybe more companies will come make chips in Phoenix.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, maybe that. Well that plus undergrad and some grad work in Economics, ~25 yrs in leadership growing what became a Fortune 200 global business, followed by an exec position reporting to the CEO of a startup (that we grew from ~$40 to-~$140m annual revenue) w/ >50% of its revenue from global markets and a global supplier base... At one point, very early on, I had two Licensed Customs Brokers working for me and actually knew how to use the Harmonized Tarriff Schedule. Maybe it is because I actually know the subject area having studied it and lived it in the global business world for the better part of my life.

That being said I am always open to learning, but first, your qualifications?
OK since you are an economist maybe you can explain prices going up everywhere with the previous raising of tariffs in 2017.
1745812797474.webp
 
OK since you are an economist maybe you can explain prices going up everywhere with the previous raising of tariffs in 2017.
View attachment 276006
Never said I was an Economist. I simply learned enough to do what I wanted to do, but I did have an interest.

Also, not getting your question or point. The targeted tariffs in ‘17-'18 vs ‘19 energy data??

Again, your quals and experience?
 
Last edited:
Are you suggesting GM will be facing car shortages for USA sales as GM imports some of its vehicles from China?

Easy fix- GM can run second and third shifts at its USA assembly plants, to make up for the loss of vehicles GM imports from China.

Too easy....

This is really a naive comment will you understand some GM models are only made in China-and shipped here.

Again-anybody who thinks a company is going to "pop up" or add extra capacity to a factory just because of the tariffs doesn't understand how manufacturing/distributing works.
 
This is really a naive comment will you understand some GM models are only made in China-and shipped here.

Again-anybody who thinks a company is going to "pop up" or add extra capacity to a factory just because of the tariffs doesn't understand how manufacturing/distributing works.
I just read this AM that Subaru was planning to move more production to the US with the idea that US plants would supply the US ands Canada, but they will now move less, letting their US plants build cars for the US, and supplying Canada with Japanese made cars. No one is going to forget the US market but I agree with you that it is naive to think corporations have no other moves other than to fully embracing US production.

Tariffs will also increase the price of US made products as people flee to products made here and that will spike demand and price. US manufacturers will take advantage of the situation placing their prices just below the tariff-adjusted prices of foreign made products, but in the end all prices will rise.
 
You’re taking my quote, and my intent, completely out of context. The point was about the size of a particular market and one poster was making a claim that the market depended on population. The market absolutely doesn’t.

Fairness, equity, treaties, dignity, relationships - these are completely separate discussions, so don’t take my comments and apply them where they were neither germane nor intended.
There isn't anything controversial about what I'm saying. In economics, population is a crude measure of market capacity to absorb demand for products and services. It just is. Yes, GDP per capita for the adult population and other criteria are important, even more important, but population is one of the raw requirements of demand, amongst many others.

"In a market-oriented economic system, the impact of population size on market demand affects supply and demand and prices. Current market demand reflects the effect of supply and demand in previous periods. Current population size will affect future market demand through prices and supply elasticity."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12291968/
 
There isn't anything controversial about what I'm saying. In economics, population is a crude measure of market capacity to absorb demand for products and services. It just is. Yes, GDP per capita for the adult population and other criteria are important, even more important, but population is one of the raw requirements of demand, amongst many others.

"In a market-oriented economic system, the impact of population size on market demand affects supply and demand and prices. Current market demand reflects the effect of supply and demand in previous periods. Current population size will affect future market demand through prices and supply elasticity."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12291968/
That’s a paper about the population size of a market - within a single, developed country. Much more homogenous than the world at large.

So, it is totally different than saying the US has 330 million out of a market of 8 billion, with wildly heterogenous wealth, GDP, and personal income.

The US has a GDP of roughly $85,000/person. The 12 million people in South Sudan, at the opposite end of the scale, have a GDP of $250/year.

Russia is about the world average, at $14,000/person. The 150 million people of Russia are not half the market of the USA at $85,000/person.
 
Last edited:
That’s a paper about the population size of a market - within a single, developed country. Much more homogenous than the world at large.

So, it is totally different than saying the US has 330 million out of a market of 8 billion, with wildly heterogenous wealth, GDP, and personal income.

The US has a GDP of roughly $85,000/person. The 12 million people in South Sudan, at the opposite end of the scale, have a GDP of $250/year.

Russia is about the world average, at $14,000/person. The 150 million people of Russia are not half the market of the USA at $85,000/person.
Yet, most sophisticated population-based demand functions include terms for price, income of buyers, price of substitutes, expected future price, taste patterns of buyers, distribution of incomes, government policy, and yes, a term for number of consumers in the market. They also assume that population size and demand are directly or at least positively related. I've seen this so many times in my course work, from different authors and different angles, and it conceptually makes sense. Now the weight of the number of consumers in market term based on population can be argued, but it exists and its relationship is positively correlated with demand.

Dx= f(Px, I, Pr, Pe, T, N, DI, G)

1) Demand of Commodity x (Dx)
2) Function of commodity x (f)
3) Price of good or service (Px)
4) Incomes of consumers (I)
5) Prices of related goods & services (PR)
6) Expected future price of product (Pe)
7) Taste patterns of consumers (T)
8) Number of consumers in market (N)
9) Distribution of Income (DI)
10) Government Policy (G)
 
Not sure of your point, but the US is the world's #1 economy. Education is generally good but there is regional funding disparity especially at the formative K12 level.
In CA, the incredible community colleges offer free tuition and generate a lot of talent. And the low cost (if you can call it that) UC system is world standard.

The CA economy speaks for itself.
Funding disparity? Baltimore Maryland spends more per pupil then I believe any other place in the country , something like 18,000 per student . One of the worst school districts in the country . What are they spending the money on .it's not money .
 
Yet, most sophisticated population-based demand functions include terms for price, income of buyers, price of substitutes, expected future price, taste patterns of buyers, distribution of incomes, government policy, and yes, a term for number of consumers in the market. They also assume that population size and demand are directly or at least positively related. I've seen this so many times in my course work, from different authors and different angles, and it conceptually makes sense. Now the weight of the number of consumers in market term based on population can be argued, but it exists and its relationship is positively correlated with demand.

Dx= f(Px, I, Pr, Pe, T, N, DI, G)

1) Demand of Commodity x (Dx)
2) Function of commodity x (f)
3) Price of good or service (Px)
4) Incomes of consumers (I)
5) Prices of related goods & services (PR)
6) Expected future price of product (Pe)
7) Taste patterns of consumers (T)
8) Number of consumers in market (N)
9) Distribution of Income (DI)
10) Government Policy (G)
If demand is a function of income of consumers (number 4 on your list - which should really be disposable income). Either way, if income is close to zero, then Dx=f(I) is also close to or at zero.

Doesn't matter how many times you multiply zero, still zero.

So you have proved what @Astro14 has indicated using an equation.
 
Respectfully, there is little evidence of the things in your post. Quite the opposite. If it were happening, why the erratic tariffs strategy?
We are seeing reciprical tariffs and corporation strategy changes.
Here’s some of my research and what I’ve seen from the MSM and X. I do not study not understand economics as well as many here.

Regarding the tit-for-tat tariffs, I am reading between the lines here. I believe there is more to the story:

“The U.S. tariffs, particularly the 145% rate on China, strategically weaken Beijing’s economic capacity to support Russia’s war efforts in Ukraine, positioning the U.S. to pressure China into reducing aid or negotiating trade concessions. By exempting Russia from new tariffs, the U.S. maintains diplomatic leverage to push Moscow toward ceasefire talks in Ukraine, exploiting Russia’s reliance on a tariff-strained China. For Ukraine, the tariffs indirectly bolster U.S. influence by signaling robust economic pressure on its adversaries, encouraging Kyiv to align with U.S.-led diplomatic efforts while relying on continued American aid to counter any global trade disruptions.”

How the tariffs are working out so far. Those that do not comply will be negotiated with, we’ll see how it goes. I don’t understand tariff strategy at all, but to me the erratic behavior may be another way of negotiating. I believe the US holds the upper hand and anyone that aligns with China against the US (lol) will not do too well.

- **Colombia**: Reached an agreement in January 2025 to address U.S. national security concerns, avoiding retaliatory tariffs.
- **Mexico**: Conceded on steel trade and fentanyl trafficking policies in response to 25% tariffs on non-USMCA-compliant goods.
- **Canada**: Agreed to concessions on drug trafficking and border security, ensuring most exports met USMCA requirements to avoid 25% tariffs.
- **Brazil**: Opened agricultural markets to U.S. goods and chose not to retaliate after U.S. tariffs on steel and aluminum.
- **South Korea**: Renegotiated the KORUS trade agreement, reducing tariffs and granting U.S. market access to avoid a 25% tariff.
- **Japan**: Entered new bilateral trade agreements, partially conceding to U.S. demands to mitigate a 24% tariff.
- **India**: Began negotiating a comprehensive trade agreement with tariff cuts to address U.S. tariff pressure.
- **United Arab Emirates**: Redirected $1.4 trillion in investments to align with U.S. economic interests under tariff threats.
- **Vietnam**: Eliminated certain tariffs and pursued a bilateral trade agreement to counter a 46% U.S. tariff.
- **Panama**: Made unspecified concessions, likely on trade or security, in response to U.S. tariff pressure.
- **Venezuela**: Reduced oil exports to targeted countries following a U.S. 25% tariff on goods from nations buying Venezuelan oil.
- **Switzerland**: Secured a 10% tariff rate during ongoing trade negotiations with the U.S.
- **Poland**: Committed to trade concessions, supporting EU-led talks to reduce a 20% U.S. tariff.
- **Saudi Arabia**: Pledged a multi-billion-dollar energy partnership with the U.S. to secure favorable trade terms.

(redacted political comments)

I don’t think anyone planning the tariffs thought that there wouldn’t be any negative results. In fact I think they anticipated an extreme response.

We’ll see how long the retaliatory tariffs and price hikes / reduction in shipping affects us. The pain is needed for a reset, could be a lot or a little but anything is better now than the abuse endured before.

Once again I don’t study the issue or have any extensive education on the topic beyond college micro / macro (long ago) but am still fascinated by it.

My prediction is the $5k stimulus check everyone mentioned earlier will probably be issued at peak pain along with reduction or possible elimination of income tax for certain brackets.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If demand is a function of income of consumers (number 4 on your list - which should really be disposable income). Either way, if income is close to zero, then Dx=f(I) is also close to or at zero.

Doesn't matter how many times you multiply zero, still zero.

So you have proved what @Astro14 has indicated using an equation.
Plenty of other countries have disposable income other than the US. The US is SEVETH in per capita GDP. It's insane to pretend the US is the only worthy market in the world to pursue. Twenty countries have a GDP > $50k USD per year. Plenty of markets where I > 0. I guess we'll have to see how the world deals with these tariffs.
 
Last edited:
Here’s some of my research and what I’ve seen from the MSM and X. I do not study not understand economics as well as many here.

Regarding the tit-for-tat tariffs, I am reading between the lines here. I believe there is more to the story:

“The U.S. tariffs, particularly the 145% rate on China, strategically weaken Beijing’s economic capacity to support Russia’s war efforts in Ukraine, positioning the U.S. to pressure China into reducing aid or negotiating trade concessions. By exempting Russia from new tariffs, the U.S. maintains diplomatic leverage to push Moscow toward ceasefire talks in Ukraine, exploiting Russia’s reliance on a tariff-strained China. For Ukraine, the tariffs indirectly bolster U.S. influence by signaling robust economic pressure on its adversaries, encouraging Kyiv to align with U.S.-led diplomatic efforts while relying on continued American aid to counter any global trade disruptions.”

How the tariffs are working out so far. Those that do not comply will be negotiated with, we’ll see how it goes. I don’t understand tariff strategy at all, but to me the erratic behavior may be another way of negotiating. I believe the US holds the upper hand and anyone that aligns with China against the US (lol) will not do too well.

- **Colombia**: Reached an agreement in January 2025 to address U.S. national security concerns, avoiding retaliatory tariffs.
- **Mexico**: Conceded on steel trade and fentanyl trafficking policies in response to 25% tariffs on non-USMCA-compliant goods.
- **Canada**: Agreed to concessions on drug trafficking and border security, ensuring most exports met USMCA requirements to avoid 25% tariffs.
- **Brazil**: Opened agricultural markets to U.S. goods and chose not to retaliate after U.S. tariffs on steel and aluminum.
- **South Korea**: Renegotiated the KORUS trade agreement, reducing tariffs and granting U.S. market access to avoid a 25% tariff.
- **Japan**: Entered new bilateral trade agreements, partially conceding to U.S. demands to mitigate a 24% tariff.
- **India**: Began negotiating a comprehensive trade agreement with tariff cuts to address U.S. tariff pressure.
- **United Arab Emirates**: Redirected $1.4 trillion in investments to align with U.S. economic interests under tariff threats.
- **Vietnam**: Eliminated certain tariffs and pursued a bilateral trade agreement to counter a 46% U.S. tariff.
- **Panama**: Made unspecified concessions, likely on trade or security, in response to U.S. tariff pressure.
- **Venezuela**: Reduced oil exports to targeted countries following a U.S. 25% tariff on goods from nations buying Venezuelan oil.
- **Switzerland**: Secured a 10% tariff rate during ongoing trade negotiations with the U.S.
- **Poland**: Committed to trade concessions, supporting EU-led talks to reduce a 20% U.S. tariff.
- **Saudi Arabia**: Pledged a multi-billion-dollar energy partnership with the U.S. to secure favorable trade terms.

(redacted)

I don’t think anyone planning the tariffs thought that there wouldn’t be any negative results. In fact I think they anticipated an extreme response.

We’ll see how long the retaliatory tariffs and price hikes / reduction in shipping affects us. The pain is needed for a reset, could be a lot or a little but anything is better now than the abuse endured before.

Once again I don’t study the issue or have any extensive education on the topic beyond college micro / macro (long ago) but am still fascinated by it.

My prediction is the $5k stimulus check everyone mentioned earlier will probably be issued at peak pain along with reduction or possible elimination of income tax for certain brackets.
More DFI deals in 100 days than in 1460 days …
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom