M1 EP 15W-50 Goes Group III

JAG · Oct 30, 2006

It's good to see more evidence of M1 mediocrity come out. I'm not trashing them...just want the truth to be known for the consumer's benefit. Here's how the volatility of M1 5W-30 API SM compared to some other synthetics. It's not so great. Could be due to several factors: made up of very thin and very thick basestocks (I'm almost certain this is true); overall basestock mixture viscosity relatively low and decent amount of VI improvers added (true, relative to GC); made up of lesser quality basestocks (Group 3 vs Group 4; not sure). Not shown here but M1 0W-40 does quite poorly in volatility tests so don't get any ideas that M1 0W-40 might be one of the few awesome M1 grades still holding out. It also did poorly in very high temp deposit control in different tests (>400F) than the volatility tests described below. It not only formed a black thin layer of deposit on the walls of the cup but also left behind some fly-________-type spot deposits on the bottom of the cup that were thick enough to be felt by the fingernail.

Volatility Test Procedure (NOT NOACK): 2.00 grams of each oil below were put in separate anodized aluminum cups on a "hot plate" with oil temps at ~340F degrees. Values below are the measured weight loss as a percentage of initial oil weight at 4 and 8 hours. Weights were measured with an Ohaus digital balance (Adventurer Pro AV412) that reads to 0.01 grams; accuracy of measurements below are +-0.5%.
1. Lubromoly 5W-40: At 4 & 8 hours: 7.0% & 12.0%
2. Lubromoly 0W-40: At 4 & 8 hours: 8.0% & 14.5%
3. Castrol Syntec 0W-30 ("Gold GC"): At 4 & 8 hours: 9.0% & 17.5%
4. Mobil 1 5W-30 (API SM version): At 4 & 8 hours: 14.0% & 25.5%

From here: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1

buster · Oct 30, 2006

Tom, could it be the batch you ran was a "Katrina" version of M1 EP? I was just told by two XOM employees that M1 contains no Group III at all. ?? I agree with what you said though. Look at Schaeffer's as an example. But many of us, like myself are purists and want the best, especially when paying $7qt.

JAG · Oct 30, 2006

Oops, the blanked out word above sounds like "________", spelled with a "c" of course.

JAG · Oct 30, 2006

Jeez, the word is essentially "fly do-do". Stupid spell blocker...I curse you!

G-MAN · Oct 30, 2006

Quote:

Actually I ran the M1 EP 10W-30, but the sample was dated 12/04. It showed AN, PAO, POE, and a mineral oil cut. The AN content was larger than the PAO, and the POE was only around 2-3%.

Are you saying your test showed that AN was the primary base oil fluid?

Cutehumor · Oct 30, 2006

if Mobil 1 EP goes group 3, at $6.86/qt at walmart, you might as well pay a $1 more to get redline

sootyoil · Oct 30, 2006

Quote:

I just called them. Joe from Mobil said M1 EP WAS Group III at first, but they reformulated it and now it's PAO as well as the regular Mobil 1. Who knows.....

just reformulated? hogwash! PAO lubricants that perform are 100% PAO base oils not reformulated mixed crude and PAO oils
A true 100% synthetic has NO CRUDE IN THE FORMULA!

buster · Oct 30, 2006

Hey soot, why don't you chill out for a minute until we get more sound information. We get that you're a M1 hater. Let it go. Dope.

JHZR2 · Oct 30, 2006

JAG, you never mention what the cooling procedure was in order to perform your measurements. What about moisture uptake of the oils? All of these things can effect the readings (though small).

Tom NJ, I appreciated explaining your methods in the other thread, but am curious as to what your calibration samples are. Care to share labeled chromatograms of some of the oils indicating elution times for various types of hydrocarbons such ac PAOs and mineral oils??? I put a lot of chromatograms on this site before for fuels and additives. It would be interesting to see some GC results for motor oils. My capillary columns only go up to 320C, so Im not sure that I could run the samples, Id be scared to! How much do you cut your oil samples? what solvent do you use? Do you run split or splitless?

Thanks,

JMH

BrianWC · Oct 30, 2006

With all deference to his busterness, I already thought Redline was a better deal with the current price of M1....Well, that is until Tom rips it apart!

Course the 14 qts of M1 10W30 I got free this weekend leave me in no condition to talk about bargains...

So what does this say for the new Honda/Acura synth spec???

JAG · Oct 30, 2006

JHZR2, I took the cups off the heat source and let them cool down naturally to room temp which takes about 1 minute...not enough time for moisture to build-up in the oil. Letting them sit overnight does indeed cause enough moisture build-up to be measureable on my scale.

JHZR2 · Oct 30, 2006

Definitely would be interesting to see results with a bunch of different oils!

JMH

tripleM · Oct 30, 2006

Wow, this revelation re: M1 is like Oil-Gate!

Tom NJ · Oct 30, 2006

Quote:

Are you saying your test showed that AN was the primary base oil fluid?

Hi G-man,

I am judging the relative quantities by uncalibrated area %. Calibration is time consuming and the area % is reasonably accurate for this purpose. The mineral oil portion appears to be the largest area but I am unwilling to make a difinitive conclusion on the percentages without calibration, and besides some mineral oil is expected from additive carrier oil.

Please understand I am not enveavoring to do a complete breakdown and base oil assessment on these oils. I am having G.C.s run to look for ester since that is our business, and reporting what I see here because there seems to be such a large interest in these oil compositions. What I reported here on the 10W-30 EP was the presence of AN, PAO, POE, and mineral oil. We did calibrate the POE so I am more comfortable with that percentage, and the AN is more than the PAO, but the mineral oil quantity is uncertain. And bear in mind that that sample is almost two years old.

I just bought a 10/06 vintage of M1 EP 5W-30 and we'll shoot that one in the G.C. soon. And we are doing some more work on the 15W-50.

Tom

sootyoil · Oct 30, 2006

Quote:

Hey soot, why don't you chill out for a minute until we get more sound information. We get that you're a M1 hater. Let it go. Dope.

hey I let it go long ago, never fell for Mobile one fake advertising, now look what has unfolded

I have done a few factory fill M1 corvettes Cadilacs and when I cut open the filters with over 10000 miles there was
a small amount of sludge in the filters.

bar1 · Oct 30, 2006

Quote:

Are you serious? this is getting better by the minute.
Mobile spent time modifying groupIII oils

I knew this all along reading the Mobil1 advertising over the past few years, very vauge description of api service and even the excluding fine print on some M1 bottles
had me convinced some hind end covering was in play

European mobil SyntS 5W40 doesn't carry the Mobil1 print and has always been grp III. It is also much cheaper than the M1 lineup (- 30%).

Cutehumor · Oct 30, 2006

hmm..I do have 12 qts of mobil 1 15w-50 EP that I got from target on clearance for $1.12/qt. with UV light, it was bottled 9/20/2005. I was going to mix it with M1 5w-30

buster · Oct 30, 2006

Quote:

I have done a few factory fill M1 corvettes Cadilacs and when I cut open the filters with over 10000 miles there was
a small amount of sludge in the filters

...LOL yeah in the filters, where it should be. I guess that Honda test that showed M1 to outperform every oil on the self was just bogus? LOL. Hey if you don't like M1, thats fine. I know of a good oil that uses 4-balls to compare wear between oils. Go check them out.

Tom, I'm curious to see the 10/06 sample. They have reformulated to meet the SM/GF spec. Thanks for doing this btw.

JHZR2 · Oct 30, 2006

yes, thanks!!!

JMH

Pablo · Oct 30, 2006

I'm gonna go barf in the corner now.

"You didn't barf in front of the Dean, you barfed ON the Dean"

I feel.........so..........dirty.......

M1 EP 15W-50 Goes Group III

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