Lucid Air Gravity- Closing Gap W/ Ice

[UncleDave]

That’s my point. The thread was about the ‘gap closing’ and quite simply, it’s not. The price differential stands as a barrier to entry. With every EV brand.

Something big and capable in the EV world is well into the luxury car range and touching on exotic car price territory.

The ‘affordable’ model 3 is exactly the same size as a Nissan Sentra. At twice the price. While that may be good enough for many, it’s not a full sized vehicle.

The gap is as wide as ever because I can’t afford any of them

From a capability standpoint I'll agree to disagree. Ill agree its still expensive.

It was simply impossible 5 years ago to deliver this much utility from an EV regardless of zeros on the check.

Now it's possible but expensive, soon it will be possible and affordable.

Evs have made significant progress, where as Ice is stagnant to degrading from a modern ownership perspective. (DEF/DPF/GPF/DI, dual injection) these things do little for me as an owner and make the car way more expensive to own.

From a market perspective although you and I may chose to compare a sentra to a model 3 the market itself does not put these vehicle in the same segment and would not compare them. Same way I might put my 76 plymouth fury up against a sentra, I can make that comparison but the market at large wont.

Lucid will release an 80K version in the fall, this will be even more apples to apples.

 

[Torrid]

You’re the one that said, “the fact that it can beat any factory Chevrolet in a drag race comes into play as well.”

Those who have the means want it to be faster than an AMG S-class whatever or the Porsche sedan. Chevy doesn’t make a corvette 4-dr.

The fact that a Chevy impala could beat it on range and cabin, “recharge” (refuel) faster, and last longer was a fair point too. Interesting how all this development and tech can’t quite match the operating capability of a sedan built 20 years ago.

Thus it’s a novel product and beating a Chevy as you said doesn’t matter to folks on the high or low end who are looking and talking about the car. It’s fast and has good tech (I brought up the battery), building on expertise of Tesla design and whatever else. I’ve seen a lot around here and the looks to me aren’t great. It’s not on my list as of now.

And lightning fast itself is practically worthless. Do it five times and the novelty runs off. Do it and go illegally fast and you’re braking the law. Try to accelerate ultra fast and you get in trouble really quick and run out of road. Sure, someone may want to buy the capability. Ok. But the real utility isn’t there, even for folks who want it and can afford it.

You straight up tried to compare a luxury EV to an Impala. Maybe you get bored with acceleration and handling, but I haven't grown out of it and I've been driving 25 years. I don't think I'll ever change on that. I enjoy my vehicles. I just get bored with appliance vehicles. It needs to do something fun.

I'm not sure what utility you think the Lucid is lacking that the Chevrolet supposedly has over it. Sure they could give the Lucid even more range, but what's the point? It's just going to add more weight. Its efficiency is insane for a car of its size and its ability to put power down in nearly any conditions.

I'm not sure why range is the biggest factor to people who don't care about EVs directly. I can tell you I care a lot more about charging speed than range. I thought I cared more about range than I ended up caring about it driving the car daily. Heck I only charge to 70% for daily use.

Picking an arbitrary bullet point and beating it into the ground is what always starts these threads spiraling out of control. It's not the point being made here, it's just the hill you're choosing to die on.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I'm sure there are some who would get tired of the incredible performance of the powerful EVs, or any performance car for that matter. Porsches, BMWs, Vettes, you name it. I am not one of those people. And no, I don't do 0-60 or qtr mile runs, but I do pull out into traffic all the time. The Model 3 is far safer from a manuverability standpoint than most other cars.

Depending on one's use case, such as mine, fueling an EV is a big fat nothing. Gas cars are an expensive pain to fuel. I had to drive our GS a few miles to get under $5 gas this morning. Almost $60 for 3/4 tank. Ouch! Then I did the 5K oil change... The last time I charged our Model 3 on the road was at a Starbucks while getting a refreshment, no different than if I was in the GS.

EVs are not for everyone; I've said that a Bazillion times. Respectfully, IMO while they have lessened, the EV ownership myths seem to persist. It just depends on your use case, like any vehicle. I found you learn to use the EV a little differently, for sure. My bottom line is, I doubt I will buy another ICE vehicle for my use, with the exception of a PU. That's what 6 years of EV ownership has taught me. Your results may vary...

 

[goblin]

...the EV ownership myths seem to persist...

No matter what - people need something to love, something to despise, something to be afraid of, and something to hate. EVs will be hated long after no ICE vehicles will be left. The haters will hate EVs long after they'll be flying in free EVs that will have ATMs hidden in the glove box that will cough up cash morning and evening pulled straight from some parallel world while the AC will be curing acne and hemorrhoids by scent alone. They'll be complaining and explaining how bad they are.

 

[JeffKeryk]

No matter what - people need something to love, something to despise, something to be afraid of, and something to hate. EVs will be hated long after no ICE vehicles will be left. The haters will hate EVs long after they'll be flying in free EVs that will have ATMs hidden in the glove box that will cough up cash morning and evening pulled straight from some parallel world while the AC will be curing acne and hemorrhoids by scent alone. They'll be complaining and explaining how bad they are.

Sure there will always be haters, but IMO many people are just so used to ICE ownership the thought of plugging in or whatever is just so foreign. For years I said Teslas were for rich CA granola heads, but I learned that is not the case. I believe many of the nay sayers would change their opinions with a little extended use. Humans are reluctant to change, but oftentimes once they make said change they wonder what took them so long. Human nature!

Here's my '18 Mid Range and '24 M3P. I love both of these cars; they fit my use case so well.

 

[edyvw]

That battery & tech will come into lighter cars.

I agree it's heavy, but it's big 3 row SUV about the size of Tahoe which weighs what? like 5600 ?
Not enough difference between the two to be meaningful.

It has fantastic specs for a vehicle its size. It's apparently good to tow 6K.

My Sequoia is 5,974lbs.

 

[PandaBear]

There was a time not long ago where one could purchase a full size Chevy Impala V6 for about $30K ($25k for the 4cyl) load up 4 people, bags and drive 400 miles per stop. I did it a lot with rentals.

The fact that lucid can, for $112,000, almost match a nondescript Chevy for utility is impressive.

Why a $30k V6 Impala, why not a $20k 4cyl Corolla? The point is these high end cars are never about efficiency or functionality but comfort and desire. I appreciate the engineering but I'm not going to spend that much for this kind of thing.

Without looking at the cost it makes no sense to compare the engineering and IP. Appreciate the OG IP and coolness but they are likely not the only one though of it but others didn't want to do it due to cost.

 

[JHZR2]

Sure there will always be haters, but IMO many people are just so used to ICE ownership the thought of plugging in or whatever is just so foreign. For years I said Teslas were for rich CA granola heads, but I learned that is not the case. I believe many of the nay sayers would change their opinions with a little extended use. Humans are reluctant to change, but oftentimes once they make said change they wonder what took them so long. Human nature!

Here's my '18 Mid Range and '24 M3P. I love both of these cars; they fit my use case so well.
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View attachment 279944

It’s not a matter of plugging in being foreign. I have around ten of my vehicles plugged in at any one time. It’s a no brainer. When I’ve rented teslas I’ve plugged them in, including at my home. When we went around in Europe with a PHEV, I plugged them in at each stop.

It’s the premium for impractical range and time that’s the issue. The fact that it will go fast is lipstick on a pig in that regard.

Would a Tesla M3 be a great car to suck up highway miles? Yes. When it has EOSL 400mi range.

 

[PandaBear]

No matter what - people need something to love, something to despise, something to be afraid of, and something to hate. EVs will be hated long after no ICE vehicles will be left. The haters will hate EVs long after they'll be flying in free EVs that will have ATMs hidden in the glove box that will cough up cash morning and evening pulled straight from some parallel world while the AC will be curing acne and hemorrhoids by scent alone. They'll be complaining and explaining how bad they are.

That's what religion and politics is for, not daily transportation appliances.

Sure there will always be haters, but IMO many people are just so used to ICE ownership the thought of plugging in or whatever is just so foreign. For years I said Teslas were for rich CA granola heads, but I learned that is not the case. I believe many of the nay sayers would change their opinions with a little extended use. Humans are reluctant to change, but oftentimes once they make said change they wonder what took them so long. Human nature!

To me the point is the math doesn't work for many of today's EV math. In order for it to work it has a upper and lower limit on range: on the upper end you have to make sure you drive it up to a limit on range and not have to wait at a charger, just plug it in at work and at home, and then on the lower range you want to make sure you drive enough so you take all the benefit of the EV without keeping it parked and the battery depreciate over its 20 year lifespan, a fix depreciation cost regardless of driving it or not (and if you don't drive much might as well get a used gas guzzler and park it there most of the time).

 

[JeffKeryk]

It’s not a matter of plugging in being foreign. I have around ten of my vehicles plugged in at any one time. It’s a no brainer. When I’ve rented teslas I’ve plugged them in, including at my home. When we went around in Europe with a PHEV, I plugged them in at each stop.

It’s the premium for impractical range and time that’s the issue. The fact that it will go fast is lipstick on a pig in that regard.

Would a Tesla M3 be a great car to suck up highway miles? Yes. When it has EOSL 400mi range.

How often do you use that 400 mile range? How often do you go to a gas station to fuel up? What is your typical daily, or weekly use?

For my use case, 400 mile range is a non issue. And I have learned to hate wasting time at gas stations. Starting everyday with a full tank, for a minimal fuel cost, is simply amazing. I'm spoiled. The chances of me buying another ICE vehicle, outside of a truck, are pretty low.

 

[Astro14]

How often do you use that 400 mile range? How often do you go to a gas station to fuel up? What is your typical daily, or weekly use?

For my use case, 400 mile range is a non issue. And I have learned to hate wasting time at gas stations. Starting everyday with a full tank, for a minimal fuel cost, is simply amazing. I'm spoiled. The chances of me buying another ICE vehicle, outside of a truck, are pretty low.

If a person can have multiple cars - one for around town, and one for long range trips, then, sure, make the in town car an EV.

But a person who “learned to hate wasting time at gas stations” sure isn’t going to like the hours of time spent at chargers while driving from, say, Virginia to Florida. And the 5 minutes to fill up the gasoline car at these same stations is a whole lot more attractive than a half hour at each stop, for multiple stops, on the way.

We use the 400 mile ICE range all the time. Every month. Ski trip to Vermont, a trip to Vermont to get a car, a trip to Newark, and a trip to Boston all in January. A day round trip to Western Virginia in February. A wedding in Vermont in March. Trip to Boston and Newark in April. Just got back from a trip to Florida visiting friends and Disney this month.

All trips for which an EV would have been a horrible PITA.

So, to answer your rhetorical question, all the time, several times a month, typically.

I’m not opposed to EVs - but they don’t work for us most of the time. We’ve thought about it. But we examined our driving patterns, our use case, our “mission profile” and went with plug in hybrid. Higher purchase cost, EV efficiency and cost in town, but no EV limits on the road trip.

Here is the charger we installed at our house.

 

[Torrid]

How often do you use that 400 mile range? How often do you go to a gas station to fuel up? What is your typical daily, or weekly use?

For my use case, 400 mile range is a non issue. And I have learned to hate wasting time at gas stations. Starting everyday with a full tank, for a minimal fuel cost, is simply amazing. I'm spoiled. The chances of me buying another ICE vehicle, outside of a truck, are pretty low.

Just to answer the question as an EV owner, 3 times this year. That's when I finally learned how fast DC charging is. I had only used the Model 3 locally when I had the GTI. It was less of a hassle than I thought it was and even if it added 5 minutes to one of my stops, I've more than saved that in time and money with my daily use.

I do drive a lot. I'm doing 80 miles a day round trip for work right now. It'll probably go back to 150 miles a day again at some point depending on my assignment. There's just no way that I'm willing to go back to gas for this type of use. I hate stopping to charge or get gas, but there was no way for me not to stop twice a week with a gas car. I don't have a fuel pump in my garage. That's a huge time and cost savings.

I'd never think I'd say that as such a gear head. As a daily driver I don't see another more attractive option. I still think something like the GTI, Golf R, Jetta GLI, Civic Type-R, Integra Type-S, GR Corolla, etc are perfect options for a gasoline vehicle for what I want out of a car, but the high service costs of specialty performance cars that have a daily use form factor are expensive to operate and maintain.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If a person can have multiple cars - one for around town, and one for long range trips, then, sure, make the in town car an EV.

But a person who “learned to hate wasting time at gas stations” sure isn’t going to like the hours of time spent at chargers while driving from, say, Virginia to Florida. And the 5 minutes to fill up the gasoline car at these same stations is a whole lot more attractive than a half hour at each stop, for multiple stops, on the way.

We use the 400 mile ICE range all the time. Every month. Ski trip to Vermont, a trip to Vermont to get a car, a trip to Newark, and a trip to Boston all in January. A day round trip to Western Virginia in February. A wedding in Vermont in March. Trip to Boston and Newark in April. Just got back from a trip to Florida visiting friends and Disney this month.

All trips for which an EV would have been a horrible PITA.

So, to answer your rhetorical question, all the time, several times a month, typically.

I’m not opposed to EVs - but they don’t work for us most of the time. We’ve thought about it. But we examined our driving patterns, our use case, our “mission profile” and went with plug in hybrid. Higher purchase cost, EV efficiency and cost in town, but no EV limits on the road trip.

Here is the charger we installed at our house.

Cerainly. As I've said many times and advised many prospective customers, it depends on your use case, which is important in all vehicle purchases. Even the top range EVs would be a stretch given your parameters.

IMO, many people do not have a realistic understanding of EV ownership, both pros and cons. As evidence, the #1 reason owners go back to ICE is charging issues. But for the most part, EV owners report high customer satisfaction.

On my last 400 mile trip to Sac, then SFO and around and finally home, I started with 95%. After SFO, we stopped at a Starbucks, plugged in and grabbed a Chai. It took longer than I planned because the gal ahead of me couldn't make up her mind. Our GS could have made the same trip on 1 tank, but fuel costs would be higher. I would have stopped for Chai either way. You can make the case ICE fueling may have taken longer on this trip. As I'm sure you know, fueling up at home is a piece of cake. As I've said, I have learned to hate going to gas stations as silly as it sounds. It's a chore.

As convenient as ICE? Not for many and especially not if they are frequent trippers. We jump on Southwest for our frequent trips to San Diego.

I am curious as to @JHZR2 use case. Perhaps his is similar to yours?

 

[JHZR2]

How often do you use that 400 mile range? How often do you go to a gas station to fuel up? What is your typical daily, or weekly use?

For my use case, 400 mile range is a non issue. And I have learned to hate wasting time at gas stations. Starting everyday with a full tank, for a minimal fuel cost, is simply amazing. I'm spoiled. The chances of me buying another ICE vehicle, outside of a truck, are pretty low.

It doesn’t even have to be a 400 mile trip at once. I go to dc routinely, and drive about 140 miles to get there. Im often there for a few days and go around and do things. There is no charging facility where I park my vehicle. So should I deal with the inconvenience of finding a charger, even if only a fast charger and only for a few minutes to have more excess when I get back home, call it 350 miles later? Or just have a tank of gas or diesel and to think twice about it?

One (gas stations on my terms), particularly with hybrid and diesel vehicles that have 600-800 miles of range with a five minute max fill up (and they pump it for me!) is a no brainer. One (charging even if for a few minutes) would be a total pain and take away from doing other things I enjoy like competitive swimming or dining.

Yes, charging is less convenient. And takes as long fiddling with cables as stopping to have fuel pumped.

But as I said before, I’ve charged plenty of times, and wouldn’t mind it if I could get decent range at the end of the vehicle service life. I can’t, even with a super high end one like the lucid. That’s the real point. I bought a 2008 MB diesel with near,y 200k miles on it. Would I buy a 2008 ev with 200k? No thanks. That’s not to say that I would mind a Tesla m3 with fsd to soak up the miles… but I don’t want to think about charging just to get back home.

 

[Torrid]

It doesn’t even have to be a 400 mile trip at once. I go to dc routinely, and drive about 140 miles to get there. Im often there for a few days and go around and do things. There is no charging facility where I park my vehicle. So should I deal with the inconvenience of finding a charger, even if only a fast charger and only for a few minutes to have more excess when I get back home, call it 350 miles later? Or just have a tank of gas or diesel and to think twice about it?

I've done it. I was in a hotel for 3 weeks. Interestingly enough the place I work for finished having a charger installed during my second week there so I just used it. I did charge twice while there using public charging and it did shape a couple things I did. I used it as a time to get things I needed for staying there. Both were Tesla Superchargers. One was a Hy-Vee grocery store and the other was a Target.

I think you're overthinking what the process is like personally. I'm not sure why one is thinking twice about it and the other isn't. Not to say I'm right and you're wrong, but our thought processes on the matter are very different just based on what we are used to doing on a daily basis because of our vehicle choices. After doing it I don't see any inconvenience of it. In the case of the hotel stay I had to go to the store anyway. I just picked the ones with a Tesla Supercharger in the parking lot which displayed plainly on my app and on the car's screen.

 

[JHZR2]

I've done it. I was in a hotel for 3 weeks. Interestingly enough the place I work for finished having a charger installed during my second week there so I just used it. I did charge twice while there using public charging and it did shape a couple things I did. I used it as a time to get things I needed for staying there. Both were Tesla Superchargers. One was a Hy-Vee grocery store and the other was a Target.

I think you're overthinking what the process is like personally. I'm not sure why one is thinking twice about it and the other isn't. Not to say I'm right and you're wrong, but our thought processes on the matter are very different just based on what we are used to doing on a daily basis because of our vehicle choices. After doing it I don't see any inconvenience of it. In the case of the hotel stay I had to go to the store anyway. I just picked the ones with a Tesla Supercharger in the parking lot which displayed plainly on my app and on the car's screen.

I’ve stayed in hotels with EVs. I’ve sat at charging stations at 11pm the night before going to the airport.

No thanks..

And for my personal use, li’e the use case I discussed, it’s just an unnecessary added thing to have to figure out and do, either while I’m there, or worse, when I want to get home to my wife and kids.

I never think about anything with my hybrid. Even multiple trips. Nothing. Far less than plugging in an ev at home.

 

[Torrid]

I’ve stayed in hotels with EVs. I’ve sat at charging stations at 11pm the night before going to the airport.

No thanks..

And for my personal use, li’e the use case I discussed, it’s just an unnecessary added thing to have to figure out and do, either while I’m there, or worse, when I want to get home to my wife and kids.

I never think about anything with my hybrid. Even multiple trips. Nothing. Far less than plugging in an ev at home.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you were doing it wrong. That wasn't my experience at all. Then again it was my own car and I drove there on top of it. It wasn't a rental. There's not really a figure it out that I can see. Then again it seems I'm on pace to put 20k miles a year on this car like my last one so it's the only way I drive these days. I do understand that it's different. Keep in mind as far as plugging in at home, I never have to stop and put gas in it. I can't think of anything easier than putting a plug in the car before walking in the house. That's a lot more involved making an additional stop than my own garage, especially when I stopped for gas twice a week previously.

Obviously it works for me and it sounds like it doesn't work for you, but it sounds like more of a mental block than a physical one. I thought the exact same thing for a very long time. It took owning my wife's Model 3 for two years before I got passed that and I was still wrong about the experience until I daily drove it. I'd driven many EVs before that, but never dealt with them long term for my own use until last November. I sure as heck didn't think I'd enjoy driving an EV for business trips and "dealing" with public charging.

 

[JHZR2]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you were doing it wrong. That wasn't my experience at all. Then again it was my own car and I drove there on top of it. It wasn't a rental. There's not really a figure it out that I can see. Then again it seems I'm on pace to put 20k miles a year on this car like my last one so it's the only way I drive these days. I do understand that it's different. Keep in mind as far as plugging in at home, I never have to stop and put gas in it. I can't think of anything easier than putting a plug in the car before walking in the house. That's a lot more involved making an additional stop than my own garage, especially when I stopped for gas twice a week previously.

Obviously it works for me and it sounds like it doesn't work for you, but it sounds like more of a mental block than a physical one. I thought the exact same thing for a very long time. It took owning my wife's Model 3 for two years before I got passed that and I was still wrong about the experience until I daily drove it. I'd driven many EVs before that, but never dealt with them long term for my own use until last November. I sure as heck didn't think I'd enjoy driving an EV for business trips and "dealing" with public charging.

No mental block. It’s pretty easy actually. I don’t do anything now. I leave my house as long as the vehicle has a reasonable amount of fuel. I go, do my thing, go around, come back. Don’t think about fuel, don’t think about range, nothing.

I just want parity. Which is why 400 miles, half the range of my vehicles on their best days, would suffice.

Not wanting to add complexity is not a mental issue. And I’m not anti-ev. If my wife didn’t love her van so much, actually an ev would be a no brainer for her. And with a bit more range, a no brainer for me too.

I actually have high hopes for the scout…

 

[Torrid]

No mental block. It’s pretty easy actually. I don’t do anything now. I leave my house as long as the vehicle has a reasonable amount of fuel. I go, do my thing, go around, come back. Don’t think about fuel, don’t think about range, nothing.

I just want parity. Which is why 400 miles, half the range of my vehicles on their best days, would suffice.

Not wanting to add complexity is not a mental issue. And I’m not anti-ev. If my wife didn’t love her van so much, actually an ev would be a no brainer for her.

I understand completely. Just the opposite for me though. Stopping twice a week for fuel sucked. I also hated smelling the exhaust in the cold dumping into my face while putting my stuff in the hatch when it was cold out and I was warming up the car. Sure it probably only saved me 10 minutes a week not having to stop for fuel realistically, but the cost savings was even bigger. It started as an EV being a solution for my wife's short tripping. We were having issues with her Ford Edge not keeping the battery charged to the point that I had to disable the BMS by unplugging the sensor on the ground wire to the battery so that it would charge the battery enough. The oil always smelled like fuel because of the short tripping. I never thought about an EV as a long distance vehicle. For that matter with my long commute I didn't realize how much time and money it would save me since it is still well within the range of my car.

Honestly I'm happy we all have options that work for us. I hope it continues. It's all in what we get used to for sure and if it makes sense to us and makes us happy, that's all that matters in the end.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It doesn’t even have to be a 400 mile trip at once. I go to dc routinely, and drive about 140 miles to get there. Im often there for a few days and go around and do things. There is no charging facility where I park my vehicle. So should I deal with the inconvenience of finding a charger, even if only a fast charger and only for a few minutes to have more excess when I get back home, call it 350 miles later? Or just have a tank of gas or diesel and to think twice about it?

One (gas stations on my terms), particularly with hybrid and diesel vehicles that have 600-800 miles of range with a five minute max fill up (and they pump it for me!) is a no brainer. One (charging even if for a few minutes) would be a total pain and take away from doing other things I enjoy like competitive swimming or dining.

Yes, charging is less convenient. And takes as long fiddling with cables as stopping to have fuel pumped.

But as I said before, I’ve charged plenty of times, and wouldn’t mind it if I could get decent range at the end of the vehicle service life. I can’t, even with a super high end one like the lucid. That’s the real point. I bought a 2008 MB diesel with near,y 200k miles on it. Would I buy a 2008 ev with 200k? No thanks. That’s not to say that I would mind a Tesla m3 with fsd to soak up the miles… but I don’t want to think about charging just to get back home.

I have no understanding of Superchargers in DC; sounds like it's pretty bad. A 140 mile one way trip is easy peasey around here. In my Los Gatos to Sac example, 140 miles each way, I would stop for a break of one kind of another for 10 minutes and have more than enough to get home. While not perfect, Superchargers are found all along the way, and the car plans your trip.

Our home in Petaluma is about 95 miles each way. I am there twice a month, or more. Taking the GS would cost me about $40, not to mention other vehicle consumables. The Tesla is so much more convenient, especially better with traffic in The City.

My biggest Tesla charging concern is if I got home from a trip with low miles and there was an emergency that required driving, having to charge could be dangerous. If I needed gas, it would be less so. That's my thinking...

I think you mentioned renting an EV. I've been offered an EV discount at Hertz in the past; no thanks! In general, EVs make lousy rentals. I never understood Hertz' EV business case.

All I can say is, my ideas, beliefs, fears, etc surrounding EVs have proven to be at least partially wrong. Your results may vary. Personally, I've learned a lot; it's not what I thought. These cars are different, no doubt. As silly as it sounds, I have come to hate going to gas stations; I'm not joking. Today I had to drive about 5 miles to get under $5 gas for the Tundra, with it's thirsty engine. Sheesh. I just get in the Tesla and go. Of course the Model 3 would struggle to carry the 33 boxes of Costco plank flooring, so there's that.

If I had @Astro14 use case, I'd need a nice ICE sedan that got decent mileage coupled with high reliability. I had a '17 Accord Sport that would have filled the bill nicely. It even had leather, which was a one year only option. Nice car.