Lubegard

[Elroy the Unique]

someone told me that it is way better than Mobil1 synthetic ATF.... told me not to waste money on synthetic ATF and use lubegard and Valvoline ATF...I am skeptical


Changed Title

[ January 15, 2005, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[seotaji]

i prefer to use the right fluid the first time.

i'd only use lubeguard in a pinch.

 

[DJ]

What are you looking to get out of your tranny? For a mildly used daily driver that you just want long drains on M1 might be the way to go. If a spirited driver or a performance application synthetic in the tranny is not always a good thing as clutches can slip. My usage comes under the spirited/performance catagory and I had a bad experiance with M1 and a shop($1700 bad), on the next rebuild I went with different builders and suppliers. The tranny guy has me running a dino AFT with a couple quarts of a thick hydraulic oil, my torque converter builder suggested Lubeguard/dino till I told him about the hydraulic fluid at which point he basically said good enough.

 

[oilcan]

I think about this question myself. I like and use Lubegard with dino, but I use nothing but M1 in my engines. If Mobil ! ever meets 04 GM specs. on transfer & diff. synthetics oils I will run them in a heart beat. I'm not sure of tranny. I was talking to our local tranny guy and he is big on synthetics in auto trannys. He said even if they cost him rebuilds, because of how well synthetics work in newer trans.

 

[Elroy the Unique]

So for my 1998 Intrigue should I run this lubegard stuff with Dino ATF... will the Synthetic stuff be better instead? Also, only mobil 1 right... I've heard the amsoil ATf is hype?

 

[Pablo]

I don't think Lubegard is snakeoil. There is some basis for their science. However, by adding one bottle to dino ATF, you will not suddenly have something equal to the high and low temp properties of Synthetic ATF. But does Lubegard REALLY claim this?

My last car with an AT, I used to use Amsoil ATF with Lubegard. Worked REALLY nice.

 

[metroplex]

We had a 1989 Ford C6 trans in a E-150.

It originally used Mercon for a long time and we switched to Mercon-V. Wow, what a difference. The shifts were much better...
Then I said, let's switch to Mobil 1 ATF since it's a full synthetic!

Bam, the shifting went back to the original condition... sluggish, etc...

I added in the recommend amount of Lubegard Mercon-V supplement and it improved somewhat but the van was stolen so I can't provide any up to date reports on how well it's performing.

 

[Ray H]

Phil Landis, Lubegard's CEO, had been one of Mobil Oil's lube research honchos prior to retirement - credentials that hardly qualify him as a snake oil salesman. I used the Lubegard "black" with Dexron III in a '96 Honda. It seemed to tame that transmission model's tendency for harsh upshifts, but the car was totaled in an accident before I could draw any firm conclusions. My current car will be coming up for its first (15,000 miles) fluid change. I'll go with the manufacturer's SP-III ATF requirement since the car's under a 100,000 powertrain warranty, but I'll also be adding 10 oz. of Lubegard "red".

Note to 1sttruck - Lubegard "red" has no friction modifier content as do "black" (Asian trannies), "green" (Ford Mercon V trannies), and "platinum" ("universal"). I doubt there is much risk of slippage with "red" as far as the AT's clutch materials are concerned as long as you use it in conjunction with the tranny manufacturer's designated ATF. Think of "red" as an ATF stabilizer and metal antiwear ingredient rather than an ATF specification modifier.

Question for Elroy the Unique - Why would you even consider Mercon V in a GM automatic transmission?

 

[kenw]

no disrspect intended, but Ken Lay was a well thought of member of the Board of Directors (outside) of several very large and still quite ethical companies......

I think the point of the arguement is that while it may not be snake oil in the purest sense (something that can actually harm), it is of little benefit to most people and the $$ are usually better spent elsewhere.

In the 70s we audiophiles used to argue that 0.01% Total Harmonic Distortion was soooo much better than the 0.1% common to most quality stereo equipment at the time. And technically, it is superior. No doubt and lots of science to back it up, too.

But the fact that most people cannot discern anythign below 1.0% thd (or something like that, I've mercifully forgotten all that stuff) was lost on the enthusiats at the time....

We went thru the green magic marker around the edge of CDs to make them sound better phase. They still argue about oxygen-free cables....don't even get started on the vinyl phreaks....

Enthusiasts of all kinds get wrapped around the axle so to speak on the minutia that make them enthusiasts. Is it harmful? Not unless it interferes with other aspects of life (and I'm afraid it's too late for many here).

But it is informative to a degree, especially to us part-time amateur psychologists... and every so often something of real-world usefulness pops out. The trick is to spot it amongst all the "enthusiasm".

 

[Elroy the Unique]

So Lubegard is good... So what is the best synthetic ATF for my 98 Oldsmobile Intrigue... Amsoil, Mobil 1, or Mercon V?

 

[1sttruck]

When I looked around about LubeGard, at least the red stuff, it seemd to be one of the few (only ?) ATF additives that had some OEM approvals. After a fluid change in either the 93 Taurus (Mercon) or 99 Taurus (Mercon V) I add enough to keep what I guess is 'torque converter shudder' at low enough levels, and it seems that I end up adding between 1/2 to 1 bottle. From what I understand if you add too much you can get excessive slippage.

I don't recall seeing OEM approvals on using their other additives to make Mercon into Mercon V for instance, and I won't use them as I prefer to start with the correct ATF.

 

[Elroy the Unique]

So the CEO of Lubegard used to work for Exxon Mobil? Maybe explains why Lubegard seems highly respected here... Will Lubegard make my tranny last longer? Is it true that AMSOIL is a MLM company?

 

[Pablo]

a) I haven't seen especially high regard for Lubegard products here. Mostly not a lot of mention.
b) Yes Amsoil is an MLM company. Why do you ask?

 

[vvk]

I have had very good results with Lubegard Red. Definitely made a big difference in my cars.

Mobil 1 ATF, on the other hand, caused significant shifting problems in my Subaru Impreza. The tranny shifted poorly and TC lock-up clutch stopped working. The problem went away when I drained Mobil 1 and refilled with Kendall non-synthetic.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Synthetic ATF gets my vote!!! Lubeguard is ok but it can not compare to 100% synthetic ATF. I have never had a problem with any synthetic ATF when the proper type was used. For vechiles needing DEX type product it is hard to beat Mobil-1 or Amsoil! For CHrysler applications calling for ATF+3 or ATF+4 I like Redline C+ATF. Synthetics offer more resistance to oxidation, boil off, varnish etc some up to 3 times more then conventional ATF...They can take a lot more heat and they pump better when cold. These are facts not hype!

Lube Guard helps to increase the ATF's oxidation resistance but is not in the same ball park as a properly built synthetic!

 

[DJ]

Yes synthetics can take more heat than dino BUT the rest of the seals and such in the tranny can not take that heat so it will puke long before that heat resistance can be taken advantage of.


I had a 1650stall GM truck torque converter with Mobil1 synthetic it ran around 190 most of the time as viewed through the cars pcm. After that blewup I got a 2800stall 9.5" Edge Racing Converter with a rebuild on the tranny by ProBuilt Automatics who sent me the hydraulic oil with my rebuilt tranny, I also added a Permacool spinon ATF filter. After that it usually ran 174 and would only hit 190 if I left it in OD in the hills and cycled the TCC, the high stall should have run hotter and the Permacool filter should not have been enough to offset the heat from the TC. The builder said the fluid he sent me helped drastically lower tranny temps and I can not argue with him on that, it was a fairly thick fluid something with a Caterpillar PN.

quote:

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The part number is 8T-9572 30 weight. At 210F it is apx. an 11 weight fluid and will stay there till about 375F. In almost all cases it will keep the operating temperature cooler, by about 10-25 degrees.

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The M1 was water thin compared to the Mobil dino I run now blended with the hydraulic oil.
I should note my application is a bit different from most 96 Caprice with 4L60E, over 320hp, drag racing and 25K a year daily driver, oh and in summer I tow a small boat. I ask a lot more of my tranny than the average person so what works for me may not be quite right for you.

[ January 14, 2005, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: DJ ]

 

[FazerZ]

I've seen where some guys are using thick, highly viscous hydraulic oil in their automatics with success. Drag cars using aluminum Powerglides, etc.

This oil's usage with old generation automatics is likely ok, but the trend for most ATFs now is make the fluid less viscous and flow easier due to use of duty solenoids and even smaller orifices.

So, the use of thick hydraulic oil on a modern electronic automatic could be a bad idea. However, maybe a blend or mixture would offset and give some benefits as you describe.

I'm just curious what kind of efficiency losses you have when you are using that thick oil. Can you tell what your brake stall and flash stall on the convertor is? The torque convertor and oil pump must need more torque to operate at the same level.

Interesting stuff. Back to the original topic, We use Lubeguard with great success at our shop. It's a useful product.

DH

 

[DJ]

Brake stall I get about 2650 out of it then the tires go

, the STR is very high like 2.5 so drivability is great, it pulls harder at idle(slightly bumped up for mild cam) than my stock Roadmaster wagon or my wife's stock '03 Impala. On the solenoids and orafices, the guy that sent me the fluid built the tranny and setup the Trango kit in it so anything needing attention got it. From one conversation I had with a TC builder the viscosity thing was a key benifit of the Lubguard, at least from his testing and opinion. I was going to have a sample analysed at some point, when I do I will post the numbers and that will tell us how much it was thickened up by the fluid.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by kenw:
...no disrspect intended, but Ken Lay was a well thought of member of the Board of Directors (outside) of several very large and still quite ethical companies......

I think the point of the arguement is that while it may not be snake oil in the purest sense (something that can actually harm), it is of little benefit to most people and the $$ are usually better spent elsewhere...

---

No interpretation of disrespect taken, though I think your comparing an MBA graduate who clawed his way to the top and allegedly bilked the public vs. a PhD accredited chemist who oversaw Mobil's reasearch labs until retirement was a bit specious. Not only has Phil Landis not been brought up on charges of bilking people as Ken Lay has, Lubegard is recommended in certain OEM service applications (Honda and Saab), and used extensively in the aftermarket service trade. Landis' premise for the basic Lubegard chemistry is a "synthetic liquid wax ester" derived from various seed oils - peanut, flaxseed, cottonseed, canola, soy, etc. Landis was well aware that for three decades about a thimbleful of sperm whale oil was added to each quart of ATF by the blenders. While the chemistry wasn't absolutely understood, the stabilizing effect under heat was. Sometime in the early '80s whaling was banned worldwide. GM's first response, unbelievably, was [/i]lard[/i] as a substitute for the sperm whale oil. Didn't pan out. (Don't laugh - lard is reasonably stable under heat and, as an animal fat, is an ester. [The other naturally occuring esters are vegetable oils/fats.] There was reason to believe their choice would help even if it didn't equal sperm whale oil's contribution.) The synthetic liquid wax esters that Landis and his team developed are considered very close in their stabilizing properties to the lamented sperm whale oil originally used - some say superior. The plants supplying the seed oils to synthesize these liquid wax esters also have the advantage of being renewable at a faster rate than whales, as well as suffering much less psychological trauma during uprooting than whales do when harpooned and slaughtered.

 

[JohnBrowning]

DJ, I know guys at work that use tractor hyralic fluid when the trans starts to go south(slip). I doubt that you specific application would match too many people that would be asking for advice here!!

Are you aware that Delvac-1 5W40 Synthetic engine oil can be used in transmissions calling for DEX type fluids. It does not have any moly or other friction modifers in it and it will shift firmly!I would not consider that for most daily drivers but to simplfy fluid needs and in HD applications it would make sense.

P.S. You should take a sample of your hydralic fluid and send it in for UOA after 25,000 miles I would like to see what it looks like. I would love to see that car try to drive at -20F temps. I am guessing that the hydralic fluid would flow like honey at those temps?????