LSJr - Viscosity Breakdown: The Silent Engine Killer Revealed!

Status
Not open for further replies.
dnewton3 said:
I would take issue with this comment, but I'm not doing so just to be argumentative. I truly see this as a much wider topic that just "viscosity".

Yes - vis is important. But what if you have a viscous fluid that has the appropriate HT/HS value, but the oil has no other part of the additive package? No detergent/inhibitor portion? No anti-foam portion? No anti-wear portion? Vis is NOT, by any means, the "single most important variable". Because frankly to single out any characteristic is to ignore the other important things other elements do. How important would HT/HS be if you had no anti-foam? How little would HT/HS matter if you had sludge/soot build up in a short OCI?

Lubricants as we use them are finished products which blend many aspects into a compromise for the intended application. Lubes which are intended for more severe use or longer OCIs are going to need "more" of things which will push their capability past the "normal" oils.

What I would say is that the most important thing a lube does is "control wear". And lubes have many jobs/criteria which help achieve that goal. Vis is just one of many things which are tasked to help control wear. All things in moderation, as it were. I want a well-blended final product; not a hyper sensitive lube which focuses on just one thing.

As long as the MOFT (or greater) is maintained for the intended OCI, then having "more" vis really doesn't improve wear control to any tangible degree.

Having a good HT/HS value is more akin to assuming a vis retention over time such that the oil won't shear down in "X" miles of use. But if the oil stays "in grade", and yet allows soot to amalgamate, or the oil to foam badly and cavitate in the pump, well, then vis really isn't the problem we'd want to be concerned about.

IMO vis is no more or less important than any other task the oil does, for the intended application and OCI duration which is selected.
Click to expand...
My interpretation especially after watching the entire video and another couple from the same guy that also touched on the same topic is that viscosity breakdown is the quickest way to take out an engine in a race environment (which the video is basically based on). Soot buildup is not going to cause a failure on an engine after 10 or 20 dyno pulls or 1/4 mile passes etc.....
While the title may be a bit "clickbait" (which most YouTube videos are in order to get traffic) the video itself is full of honest information, whether you dislike the guy (despite his knowledge) or choose to leave your own little bubble.
 
Sam_Julier said:
I don’t understand why you would not run No VII oils in cold temperatures? I ran one of our 240s to Stowe VT many times the past two winters. Including a trip during a polar vortex and a -11 start; by 1pm it was -17 in Waterbury VT.

I felt the engine started more easily.
Click to expand...
The whole point of viscosity index improvers is to improve cold starting. I personally tested a 10w30 and then a 0w30 in one of my old caprices in winter temps below minus 25c years ago and it spun way faster.
Running only in hot temperatures is when you would consider a no vii oil.
 
350Rocket said:
The whole point of viscosity index improvers is to improve cold starting. I personally tested a 10w30 and then a 0w30 in one of my old caprices in winter temps below minus 25c years ago and it spun way faster.
Running only in hot temperatures is when you would consider a no vii oil.
Click to expand...
That's half of it, the other half is to increase viscosity as the fluid increases in temperature. Overall it tends to reduce the variation in viscosity between both extremes. A no-VII oil relies on the base stock only for both ends.
 
Last edited:
High Performance Lubricants said:
With all due respect, you were really wet here. I was not even in the building when these were defined or run and I clearly stated Lake calls his own shots for the test requirements. Lake is competent as a Formulator. We pride ourselves on being an ethical company, and that something that I would never compromise. Going forward, Lake Speed will still have access to our lab. We have a great working relationship and we will run whatever he wants to run within the capacity of our lab. I’m not really sure what the agenda is here but if you do not trust us, we’re probably not a good match for each other.

Our relationship with BITOG is simply a sponsor agreement to help support the community. Wayne does an excellent job on this forum. He spends countless and thankless hours taking care of it.

I’m not big on false accusations. I would be delighted to see your proof of what you imply.

David
Click to expand...
I should've asked the question about why a no vi shear stable oil was selected & left out the other nonsense about my incorrect assumptions about HPL being the "Clear winner" etc. I do try to have a "Give them the benefit of the doubt" attitude with most of who I deal with but it did not happen in this scenario unfortunately. It did come off as implying that the test was presented as not equal but that has been my own misunderstanding of the testing perimeters. I did have some concerns, that is true & I suppose I have a skeptical nature for commercial business/advertising so I kind of have a cautious approach to what I'm being shown. As you well know some businesses take advantage of our "Ignorance" to promote a sale. I need to iron out more clearly on how to word my questions better for certain. That was not right of me to assume a "rigging" of this test & I sincerely apologize for it. All of us here really appreciate your participation & sponsorship of this oil community. Let me repeat that last part in a different way. You're involvement in these LSJr video's has promoted our ability to post them here on BITOG. LSJr being an oil enthusiast, just as you at HPL are, & we are and can be a great community experience. I do not want to make assuming statements that paint HPL in a bad light & that really wasn't what I really wanted to do to be honest. You all don't deserve that at all. I hope that you can put this as my own stupidity & no reflection of what you all have done here. You all have done an excellent job at capturing our enthusiasm for oil as it is for you all in your products. I've never claimed your oil was bad like some here bash other brands. Actually to the contrary many times stated you all have excellent products & you've been responsive to providing information on your website when requested. You don't need me to tell you how hard you work & I do like the opportunity that you've allowed members here to get discounts, like the July 4th sale, to ease the access to your great offerings. The great thing about me is that I have an ability to recognize, albeit eventually, when I've done something wrong. I was in the wrong here & it won't happen again. I called HPL today & spoke to a sweet lady named debby? to personally apologize to HPL today. I may not be in the best position to ask but please Keep doing what you do for us along w/LSJr. For me & some others here It is the exciting material us oil heads need. I thank you for your time.

Have a great day! :)
Justin
 
kschachn said:
As capable as an oil with a 5W winter rating. Which is pretty capable.

So no, you are not.
Click to expand...
Indeed. I ran this oil thru last winter where we had pretty much a full week at/just below 0*F, which is fairly chilly for Indianapolis latitude (at least compared to recent years). No issues with cold starts whatsoever.
 
fantastic said:
I should've asked the question about why a no vi shear stable oil was selected & left out the other nonsense about my incorrect assumptions about HPL being the "Clear winner" etc. I do try to have a "Give them the benefit of the doubt" attitude with most of who I deal with but it did not happen in this scenario unfortunately. It did come off as implying that the test was presented as not equal but that has been my own misunderstanding of the testing perimeters. I did have some concerns, that is true & I suppose I have a skeptical nature for commercial business/advertising so I kind of have a cautious approach to what I'm being shown. As you well know some businesses take advantage of our "Ignorance" to promote a sale. I need to iron out more clearly on how to word my questions better for certain. That was not right of me to assume a "rigging" of this test & I sincerely apologize for it. All of us here really appreciate your participation & sponsorship of this oil community. Let me repeat that last part in a different way. You're involvement in these LSJr video's has promoted our ability to post them here on BITOG. LSJr being an oil enthusiast, just as you at HPL are, & we are and can be a great community experience. I do not want to make assuming statements that paint HPL in a bad light & that really wasn't what I really wanted to do to be honest. You all don't deserve that at all. I hope that you can put this as my own stupidity & no reflection of what you all have done here. You all have done an excellent job at capturing our enthusiasm for oil as it is for you all in your products. I've never claimed your oil was bad like some here bash other brands. Actually to the contrary many times stated you all have excellent products & you've been responsive to providing information on your website when requested. You don't need me to tell you how hard you work & I do like the opportunity that you've allowed members here to get discounts, like the July 4th sale, to ease the access to your great offerings. The great thing about me is that I have an ability to recognize, albeit eventually, when I've done something wrong. I was in the wrong here & it won't happen again. I called HPL today & spoke to a sweet lady named debby? to personally apologize to HPL today. I may not be in the best position to ask but please Keep doing what you do for us along w/LSJr. For me & some others here It is the exciting material us oil heads need. I thank you for your time.

Have a great day! :)
Justin
Click to expand...

So after all that, you're basically wondering why they chose "the gold standard" to base the rest of their comparisons on? I don't get why you're asking the question. They chose the "no vii" because that's as good as it gets when it comes to no shearing.

If they chose something else then people would be asking "why didn't you choose the gold standard/best option"?

They (whoever is paying this, probably LSJr but mabye also HPL's time/equipment etc) cannot run every possible oil and combination and choices were made, it's not any more complicated than that.
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
Indeed. I ran this oil thru last winter where we had pretty much a full week at/just below 0*F, which is fairly chilly for Indianapolis latitude (at least compared to recent years). No issues with cold starts whatsoever.
Click to expand...
I ran the oil down below -20F and will be running it this winter also and usually get many days at the -20F or below.
 
hemioiler said:
So after all that, you're basically wondering why they chose "the gold standard" to base the rest of their comparisons on? I don't get why you're asking the question. They chose the "no vii" because that's as good as it gets when it comes to no shearing.

They (whoever is paying this, probably LSJr but mabye also HPL's time/equipment etc) cannot run every possible oil and combination and choices were made, it's not any more complicated than that.
Click to expand...
I thought it was as simple as having a fully-formulated, no-VII oil being the gold standard to compare against? 🤣
 
it was chosen because the test was to compare how an oil with lots of VII shears to an oil with no VII. If it wasnt the reason lake would have said today were gonna show you just how much better the HPL 0w40 and 5w50 compare in the KRL test to the mobil 1 products. Its not that hard
 
350Rocket said:
My interpretation especially after watching the entire video and another couple from the same guy that also touched on the same topic is that viscosity breakdown is the quickest way to take out an engine in a race environment (which the video is basically based on). Soot buildup is not going to cause a failure on an engine after 10 or 20 dyno pulls or 1/4 mile passes etc.....
While the title may be a bit "clickbait" (which most YouTube videos are in order to get traffic) the video itself is full of honest information, whether you dislike the guy (despite his knowledge) or choose to leave your own little bubble.
Click to expand...

I do realize LSJr is a very credited and accomplished formulator; I believe his skills and understanding are very good in that regard. My problem isn't with his cognitive abilities as a tribologist; rather I have issue with his presentations and purpose.

I agree that vis is much more of an "acute" issue in very harsh applications (racing, etc). But how many here are truly involved in that in our daily driver lives? Sure - a few racers exist here; TiGeo is one that comes to mind and his UOA data is very credible given his application and lube choices.

But, the average Joe would be better served in learning about "chronic" problems; how to control contamination, tracking wear trends, etc. Those are the things that would benefit the "normal" lube user.

My problem with these LSJr videos is that they often highlight very extreme concerns which pretty much don't materialize in our daily-driving lives. This most recent is another example ... as if viscosity loss is somehow going to kill every engine in a sensational manner, imminently approaching a garage near you. And yet the vast majority of BITOGers here glam onto his "info" as if it were gospel and the only way to look at a topic.

Further, LSJrs presentations are, well, unpolished and very "in your face"; he could benefit from taking it down a notch and getting to the point much sooner. His videos come off as a high-end cross between PF and Scotty Kilmer. Of course, many of us realize that YT monetization is tied to hits and duration of watching, so he's motivated to click-bait his way to stardom. I can't blame him for playing the game the way the game is set up; but that's also not a reason for me to give in and "like" his videos.
 
dnewton3 said:
I do realize LSJr is a very credited and accomplished formulator; I believe his skills and understanding are very good in that regard. My problem isn't with his cognitive abilities as a tribologist; rather I have issue with his presentations and purpose.

I agree that vis is much more of an "acute" issue in very harsh applications (racing, etc). But how many here are truly involved in that in our daily driver lives? Sure - a few racers exist here; TiGeo is one that comes to mind and his UOA data is very credible given his application and lube choices.

But, the average Joe would be better served in learning about "chronic" problems; how to control contamination, tracking wear trends, etc. Those are the things that would benefit the "normal" lube user.

My problem with these LSJr videos is that they often highlight very extreme concerns which pretty much don't materialize in our daily-driving lives. This most recent is another example ... as if viscosity loss is somehow going to kill every engine in a sensational manner, imminently approaching a garage near you. And yet the vast majority of BITOGers here glam onto his "info" as if it were gospel and the only way to look at a topic.

Further, LSJrs presentations are, well, unpolished and very "in your face"; he could benefit from taking it down a notch and getting to the point much sooner. His videos come off as a high-end cross between PF and Scotty Kilmer. Of course, many of us realize that YT monetization is tied to hits and duration of watching, so he's motivated to click-bait his way to stardom. I can't blame him for playing the game the way the game is set up; but that's also not a reason for me to give in and "like" his videos.
Click to expand...
Nobody says you have to watch them.
 
dnewton3 said:
I do realize LSJr is a very credited and accomplished formulator; I believe his skills and understanding are very good in that regard. My problem isn't with his cognitive abilities as a tribologist; rather I have issue with his presentations and purpose.

I agree that vis is much more of an "acute" issue in very harsh applications (racing, etc). But how many here are truly involved in that in our daily driver lives? Sure - a few racers exist here; TiGeo is one that comes to mind and his UOA data is very credible given his application and lube choices.

But, the average Joe would be better served in learning about "chronic" problems; how to control contamination, tracking wear trends, etc. Those are the things that would benefit the "normal" lube user.

My problem with these LSJr videos is that they often highlight very extreme concerns which pretty much don't materialize in our daily-driving lives. This most recent is another example ... as if viscosity loss is somehow going to kill every engine in a sensational manner, imminently approaching a garage near you. And yet the vast majority of BITOGers here glam onto his "info" as if it were gospel and the only way to look at a topic.

Further, LSJrs presentations are, well, unpolished and very "in your face"; he could benefit from taking it down a notch and getting to the point much sooner. His videos come off as a high-end cross between PF and Scotty Kilmer. Of course, many of us realize that YT monetization is tied to hits and duration of watching, so he's motivated to click-bait his way to stardom. I can't blame him for playing the game the way the game is set up; but that's also not a reason for me to give in and "like" his videos.
Click to expand...

His videos aren't intended to target a specific type of driver. They're intended to give general oil knowledge, dispel myths and misinformation, and provide some depth as to what goes into making a fully formulated oil. How that information applies to the viewer is up to the viewer. For many, it may not be applicable, but it may give them some insight on engine oils beyond the oil grade or "how much zinc is in it?" A lot of people don't even know what oil grades are. They just know it's in their manual or "what I've always used." This video shows them what that grade means, what goes into making that grade possible, and how that content affects other parameters of the oil, namely shear stability. This is applicable to anyone, regardless of how they use their vehicle, if they're open to accept and apply the information as they see fit.
 
Guys, the video is useful. LSjr made choices what to use, and because of good people at HPL we expanded our knowledge. Look at it as a contribution to existing knowledge. Yes, testing 100 different oils would be better, but take what you have.
I personally don't like his over-the-top sensationalism, but guys, I work in the national security field, and people get information about that subject in a sensationalist manner, so sensationalist videos about oil are the least of my concerns. I can live with it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom