LSJr tests and discusses DexosD babymax oils

[GW.]

Looking at the ESP 0W-30 results the PDSC is low at 44 minutes(not very impressive). Inline with a racing oil not made for extended intervals. The TEOST of 50 puts it in the middle of some of the best in the business.

 

[johnmyster]

View attachment 344077

To me all of those wear metal numbers look statistically indistinguishable from one another, I sure wouldn't use them to make the claim for or against a specific oil.

That said, since the three ESP weights are using the same additive strategy you can logically conclude that the -40 must provide better wear protection on account of the higher HTHS.

I didn’t initially pick up that the absolute numbers were that small.

On the one hand, lake is doing this as a side gig on the weekend. On the other hand, that cripples his ability to do sufficient testing to arrive at conclusive results. Everyone sees numbers and thinks science/conclusive/data, might as well be another project farm wear scar test.

 

[Hohn]

@Hohn i wonder if the higher viscosity / higher peak power helps explain your mileage improvement that I saw awhile back.

I was thinking the same thing as I watched the video last night.

As a note of clarity— it’s not peak power, but peak torque. Typically peak power will be less because of the higher RPM pumping loss.

It was really striking that he showed a graph that 0w-40 ESP has lower traction than than the 0w-20 Delco oil. We talked a lot about traction in my other SAE 40 and such threads, and I surmised (against intuition) that it’s possible the thicker oil had lower traction.

It’s possible for a thicker oil to have both lower traction AND higher viscous pumping. This is why you see thick oils have an advantage at low RPM where traction dominates and why they lose to thinner oils at higher RPM where viscous pumping dominates.

I’m over 2200 miles on this OCI now and tank mpg has stabiliized at well over 1mpg better than the 5w-30 Valvoline Restore and Protect and 15w-40 were able to deliver. (Seasonality probably explains the 15w-40 not besting the Valvoline Restore and Protect 5w-30 like the mnonograde does).

So indeed, it’s possible for a higher viscosity grade oil to be a lower traction oil.

This is the graph that blew my mind.

 

[buster]

Looking at the ESP 0W-30 results the PDSC is low at 44 minutes(not very impressive). Inline with a racing oil not made for extended intervals. The TEOST of 50 puts it in the middle of some of the best in the business.

View attachment 344096

View attachment 344097

Probably why Mobil capped the mileage rating to 12k for ESP. They know their own product. I've said many times in the past just because it's a Euro oil don't assume it outperforms top shelf API/ILSAC EP oils in ALL areas. EP likely has higher detergent and AO than ESP and therefore can go a bit further. Something to at least consider. And we're seeing Valvoline Restore and Protect being used in engines that ran on Euro oils being cleaned up a bit too.

Also, why Pennzoil ranks Pennzoil Ultra Platinum greater than their Euro oil in their marketing sheet?

 

[OVERKILL]

He shows data that says the babymax has lower wear metals as miles increase.

I wonder if that simple fact invalidates all his wear metal conclusions. The engine was “breaking in” on the test stand. Oils tested later in the test have lower wear metals.

Correlation but not causation.

Yes, we saw that with one of the other wear "tests" too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Probably why Mobil capped the mileage rating to 12k for ESP. They know their own product. I've said many times in the past just because it's a Euro oil don't assume it outperforms top shelf API/ILSAC EP oils in ALL areas. EP likely has higher detergent and AO than ESP and therefore can go a bit further. Something to at least consider. And we're seeing Valvoline Restore and Protect being used in engines that ran on Euro oils being cleaned up a bit too.

Also, why Pennzoil ranks Pennzoil Ultra Platinum greater than their Euro oil in their marketing sheet?


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I mean, it IS a marketing sheet, lol.

 

[travis8352]

Im even more suprised that delvac 1 esp only did 47.9 minutes.

Also its clear than the ESP line while it elementally looks the same, these are all different formulas and the revision numbers on the back of the ESP bottles are all different between esp x2, esp 0w-30, esp x3, esp x4, c40-gt

 

[z71offroader83]

It would've been as easy as repeating the delco oil at the end to re-establish the baseline. If wear metals repeated, boom, you've established causation.

But he's a certified lubrication expert and has a youtube channel. After all, he said Delvac ESP 5w-40 CK-4 was PAO/ester.

From the horse's mouth:

View attachment 344057

He doesn’t need to run the Delco oil again. He compares his results to his customer’s results which according to Lake match up. Unfortunately he didn’t show his customers results (probably not allowed to w/o permission?) on screen so we’re taking him at his word. But I don’t see what he would gain from lying about his customers results so I believe what he is saying.

 

[kschachn]

He doesn’t need to run the Delco oil again. He compares his results to his customer’s results which according to Lake match up. Unfortunately he didn’t show his customers results (probably not allowed to w/o permission?) on screen so we’re taking him at his word. But I don’t see what he would gain from lying about his customers results so I believe what he is saying.

It's really the notion of comparison here that's the most bogus.

 

[Japanese]

On tonight's episode of Oil Geek, LSJr gets coffee for Jeremy Wagler and his assertions break the BITOG HDEO forum.

0) DexosD is only 0w-20 (incorrect.)

There are a few people on here who use ESP 0W-20 in their gasoline engines. Also, I bought 3 jugs of it for a friend's hybrid SUV after reading and taking advices from the forum.
About the diesel engines—they not only run at much lower RPM but also at lower temps. as well, compared to gasoline engines.

 

[Japanese]

I was thinking the same thing as I watched the video last night.

As a note of clarity— it’s not peak power, but peak torque. Typically peak power will be less because of the higher RPM pumping loss.

It was really striking that he showed a graph that 0w-40 ESP has lower traction than than the 0w-20 Delco oil. We talked a lot about traction in my other SAE 40 and such threads, and I surmised (against intuition) that it’s possible the thicker oil had lower traction.

It’s possible for a thicker oil to have both lower traction AND higher viscous pumping. This is why you see thick oils have an advantage at low RPM where traction dominates and why they lose to thinner oils at higher RPM where viscous pumping dominates.

I’m over 2200 miles on this OCI now and tank mpg has stabiliized at well over 1mpg better than the 5w-30 Valvoline Restore and Protect and 15w-40 were able to deliver. (Seasonality probably explains the 15w-40 not besting the Valvoline Restore and Protect 5w-30 like the mnonograde does).

So indeed, it’s possible for a higher viscosity grade oil to be a lower traction oil.

This is the graph that blew my mind.

View attachment 344109

A good catch.
Not sure exactly what rolling speed is but on the graph is measured at 40ºC (which is way below engine operating temp. but also way high than a winter cold start) and also is measured in mm/s. The 40 grade oil has a bit of advantage only if the rolling speed is lower than 567 mm/s (22" per second) or 1,320" per minute (110' per minute) which looks to me a low speed for an oil.

 

[Japanese]

Also, why Pennzoil ranks Pennzoil Ultra Platinum greater than their Euro oil in their marketing sheet?

Because is probably their best selling "superior full synthetic" oil (vs their other "premium full synthetic" oils). However, the Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 is as extreme performance as Ferrari engine gets.

 

[Krieg]

Please forgive my ignorance. But, where / how does an engine get (PDSC test) get pure oxygen and of course "Babymax"?

 

[johnmyster]

He doesn’t need to run the Delco oil again. He compares his results to his customer’s results which according to Lake match up. Unfortunately he didn’t show his customers results (probably not allowed to w/o permission?) on screen so we’re taking him at his word. But I don’t see what he would gain from lying about his customers results so I believe what he is saying.

The issue is that:

1) He knows these engines show progressively less wear metals over their life.
2) His test showed progressively less wear metals as he went from oil 1-5…increasing viscosity.

He doesn't know if it was the oil or the natural tendancy of the engine to "break in." (Nor do any N=1 home gamers that switch and see an improvement.) Repeating the delco and seeing the wear metals increase would've eliminated that variable.

Any “study” of the LZ0/LM2 motors seems incomplete without also harvesting data from the European 3/4 cylinder Opel fleet.

 

[johnmyster]

Please forgive my ignorance. "Babymax"?

3.0L LZ0/LM2

 

[Klutch9]

There are a few people on here who use ESP 0W-20 in their gasoline engines. Also, I bought 3 jugs of it for a friend's hybrid SUV after reading and taking advices from the forum.
About the diesel engines—they not only run at much lower RPM but also at lower temps. as well, compared to gasoline engines.

What temps run lower in this engine? Coolant? Oil temps, for example, hover around 250F in the 3.0.

 

[johnmyster]

About the diesel engines—they not only run at much lower RPM but also at lower temps. as well, compared to gasoline engines.

Generalization does not apply to the LM2/LZ0. Look around for data on typical coolant/oil temps. "Much."

That was also entirely not the point. LSJ says multiple times that DexosD spec is 0w-20. If you look at the approved oils list, it clearly includes 5w-30 grade.

https://www.gmdexos.com/brands/dexosd/index.html

 

[Hohn]

I think the someone low PDSC values for all the oils tested sort of hints at:
1) little to no AN
2) Not much aminic antioxidants
3) Ashless still has a way to go to catch up to good old ashy high SAPS if oxidation resistance is your main requirement.


That said, I strongly suspect that a lower PDSC will run as clean or cleaner in some cases as long as it's not pushed too far on OCI. The huge PDSC valuations that you get from HPL come with a teost tradeoff. It's up to you to decide how much stock to put in TEOST.

 

[JackWildfeuer]

I would have liked to seen him compare these oils to a more conventional CK-4 rated oil's across more diesel power plants to see and compare old chemistry vs new.

The idea of a 0W30 or 0W40 in HD 1 Ton powerplants is very intersting since it could reduce costs for cold starts by not requiring block heating for months and months of winter usage in both 1Ton pickups and in external stationary power plants etc.....The same Durmax, Cummins, Power Stroke engines used in 1 Ton pickups and such are also used throughout industry and manufacturing. Between block heaters, Tannis oil heaters, hot air systems prior to starting and older Pony Motors the cost saving could be huge so long as wear and durability are not an issue!

 

[Japanese]

What temps run lower in this engine? Coolant? Oil temps, for example, hover around 250F in the 3.0.

The combustion of diesel emits less heat than gasoline.