LSJR Calls Out YouTube AI-generated Video Referencing Him

[OVERKILL]

UOA is only detecting certain particle size too. So hypothetically you could have sample A showing more iron than sample B but there could be more catastrophic wear going on with sample B that isn't being detected, hence the limitation. I think that's correct? Anyone? Probably rare that happens but I suppose it is possible...

Yeah, like Wayne's follower failure, the particles being shed were visible to the human eye and thus effectively invisible to the UOA.

 

[mojoe]

Correct. Mostly used oil analysis are used for fleets. They have trends on each piece of equipment and when something spikes or trends higher they know something is going on. Tom NJ said it best IMO “It’s what the engine is doing to the oil, not what the oil is doing to the engine”.

The problem here is most people don’t do enough used oil analysis to even know what’s normal. I’m one of them…

So, back to my original question, used oil analysis do, or at least can, provide meaningful information regarding engine wear when used and interpreted properly?

 

[demarpaint]

Think of used oil analysis as a cheap digital bathroom scale. It has a decimal place for fractions of a lb, but it only actually gives you half pounds, it's 5 or 0. Now pretend you are trying to determine if Winchester or Federal puts more grains of powder in their shells by weighing full boxes of ammo on this bathroom scale. The resolution just isn't there, and you are making an inference, because you have no idea where the weight comes from.

+1 Yet a lot of people here still beileve a used oil analysis to be the Gospel when it comes to engine wear, engine life, oil life, determining which oil is best based on iron or aluminum ppm, and anything else related to oil they can think of.

 

[OVERKILL]

So, back to my original question, used oil analysis do, or at least can, provide meaningful information regarding engine wear when used and interpreted properly?

This is predicated on an understanding of the limitations of the tool; it's error bars.

 

[GW.]

So, back to my original question, used oil analysis do, or at least can, provide meaningful information regarding engine wear when used and interpreted properly?

Yes they can provide useful information with enough data on engine health. Wear can be tricky because not all particle sizes can be detected. Like @wwillson having an oil filter full of metal but a perfect UOA.

 

[JHZR2]

Yes, you are a hater. You, and many others, are glamming onto the oil filter claim, and discrediting his entire body of work, because you don't agree. Personally, I'm waiting for clarification, and I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything.

Getting back to the video in question, the message is clear: 20 weight oil can protect acceptably, as long as it stays in grade. Seems to be solid information.

Doesn’t seem to be anything that we didn’t ready know either. So Rh in person is monetizing a message that has been stated plainly for the last 25 years now, just so folks can sleep better at night?!??

 

[edyvw]

So, back to my original question, used oil analysis do, or at least can, provide meaningful information regarding engine wear when used and interpreted properly?

They can. If you do occasionally UOA, and see some dramatic spike (let’s say iron goes from 10ppm in 5,000mls to 70ppm in 5,000mls) in metal increase, yes it is useful.
UOA that gives you 10ppm doesn’t mean anything. UOA with one oil having 10ppm and another having 15ppm also doesn’t mean absolutely nothing.

 

[hemioiler]

What is YOUR evidence of these claims?

I'm not an expert, and the rules are different.

But mainly (as Overkill already mentioned) we can see the manufacturers still very gun shy about using thin oils anywhere performance is expected. Muscle cars, and heavy duty gasser trucks are great examples.

 

[mojoe]

They can. If you do occasionally UOA, and see some dramatic spike (let’s say iron goes from 10ppm in 5,000mls to 70ppm in 5,000mls) in metal increase, yes it is useful.
UOA that gives you 10ppm doesn’t mean anything. UOA with one oil having 10ppm and another having 15ppm also doesn’t mean

used oil analysis do provide useful information. They are not definitive, though. Given that folk like us are not engine designers, smart money is on taking what information is readily available, and using it to our advantage. Said another way, engines showing big metal particulate counts are indicating a problem. Low particle count suggests a good running engine. Strive for low, and be happy. Most is a result of the engine proper, but the oil used can contribute.

used oil analysis do provide useful information. They are not definitive, though. Given that folk like us are not engine designers, smart money is on taking what information is readily available, and using it to our advantage. Said another way, engines showing big metal particulate counts are indicating a problem. Low particle count suggests a good running engine. Strive for low, and be happy. Most is a result of the engine proper, but the oil used can contribute.

It wasn't a trick questions. Thanks to those who gave a straightforward answer. I never believed or suggested that used oil analysis were a comprehensive method for determining engine wear.

 

[altaylar]

I don`t follow why everyone is making a big deal out of this. At the end of the day he has a product that he is selling, and youtube videos he is making are not some university lecture recordings but rather his marketing material. He is not the only one that sandwich sales pitch in between some actual information, and the viewer swallows the whole package that way. The same on fitness/diet videos. They start with some actually useful information, but then mentions how he has made a pill that encapsulate all the goods of a perfect diet.

What surprises me is that I am quite sure he has far more information on UOA than most of us, yet some information he shares are outright against what is a common knowledge. Forexample that spread between winter vs sae grade vs shear resistence.

TL/DR:
If the product is free, you are the product.

 

[IndyFan]

I’ll go one more and say that I’ve never seen an official comparative wear study that used uncontrolled $30 spectrographic analyses.

And to your second point, it’s not the best tool. In fact, it’s not the tool at all. If the differences are just noise then they are just that, noise, and nothing else.

Well, you use the tool you have. Who has the ability to tear down 50 engines? Exxon Mobil, maybe.

So it is funny. Those who shoot holes in him using his spectrographic data to draw a conclusion that thinner oils show less wear (or really statistically the same), also tend to do it from the assumption that thicker oils show less wear. The reality is that if we can´t tell from the spectrograph, we also cannot tell from our preconceived notions or just what conventional wisdom says in our heads.

So if we toss the spectrograph data from UOA´s, then we must also toss preconceived notions that thicker oil results in less wear.

I think that even with thinner oils, engines are lasting longer than ever. They seem to outlast the vehicles themselves these days.

Lots of energy, spewing, and spasms go on among us all here over the difference between a 0w20 and a 5w30. It´s probably REALLY silly because the difference is so small.

So a question I have is....where are all these engines wearing out on 20 weight oil? What about 0w16? I don´t see a bunch of threads titled, ¨My Toyota with 0w8 oil is smoking!¨

 

[mojoe]

Lake? Is that you? OMG, somebody pinch me! Swoon.....

In all seriousness, I'm just asking for the proof in the pudding. That's it. Doesn't seem that hard to me. LOTS of other members here are asking for the same thing, and most of them have far better understanding of this than I do. Glenda, Zee0Six, K, etc. Until then, it's just a claim. Lake, in an email to another member here, also showed a lack of understanding of the standardized testing done for filter efficiency, which is something that someone with his credentials SHOULD understand.

Bottom line, until he comes up with proof, I don't trust what he says. YMMV, but I bet you won't be keeping an oil filter on your car forever.

"YMMV, but I bet you won't be keeping an oil filter on your car forever."

He never suggested you should. And I'm sure someone with his credentials does understand the standardized testing. That's why I suspect there is more to the story than "the standardized testing is wrong; you just have to trust me". I would love to see it myself, but realizing that there very well be something I don't know (which I can freely admit without foaming at the mouth and having an aneurism) I have no problem withholding judgement for now.

 

[buster]

Well, you use the tool you have. Who has the ability to tear down 50 engines? Exxon Mobil, maybe.

So it is funny. Those who shoot holes in him using his spectrographic data to draw a conclusion that thinner oils show less wear (or really statistically the same), also tend to do it from the assumption that thicker oils show less wear. The reality is that if we can´t tell from the spectrograph, we also cannot tell from our preconceived notions or just what conventional wisdom says in our heads.

So if we toss the spectrograph data from UOA´s, then we must also toss preconceived notions that thicker oil results in less wear.

I think that even with thinner oils, engines are lasting longer than ever. They seem to outlast the vehicles themselves these days.

Lots of energy, spewing, and spasms go on among us all here over the difference between a 0w20 and a 5w30. It´s probably REALLY silly because the difference is so small.

So a question I have is....where are all these engines wearing out on 20 weight oil? What about 0w16? I don´t see a bunch of threads titled, ¨My Toyota with 0w8 oil is smoking!¨

Modern engines can run a long time without wear issues.

The bigger issue has been piston deposits and oxidation which lead to oil consumption. Wear is pretty well controlled by most motor oils, including API. It's also why BS Labs states they don't even notice wear differences between oils via used oil analysis.

Viscosity is important, but it's also not as important as some think. This is why most owner's manuals for decades had multiple grades you can use from 0w20-5w40. It's like a glove/hand fit.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, you use the tool you have. Who has the ability to tear down 50 engines? Exxon Mobil, maybe.

So it is funny. Those who shoot holes in him using his spectrographic data to draw a conclusion that thinner oils show less wear (or really statistically the same), also tend to do it from the assumption that thicker oils show less wear. The reality is that if we can´t tell from the spectrograph, we also cannot tell from our preconceived notions or just what conventional wisdom says in our heads.

So if we toss the spectrograph data from UOA´s, then we must also toss preconceived notions that thicker oil results in less wear.

I think that even with thinner oils, engines are lasting longer than ever. They seem to outlast the vehicles themselves these days.

Lots of energy, spewing, and spasms go on among us all here over the difference between a 0w20 and a 5w30. It´s probably REALLY silly because the difference is so small.

So a question I have is....where are all these engines wearing out on 20 weight oil? What about 0w16? I don´t see a bunch of threads titled, ¨My Toyota with 0w8 oil is smoking!¨

Ehhh, you are kind of side-stepping the whole Stribeck curve discussion. Also, I'm not sure who is arguing that used oil analysis show that thicker oils show less wear? Generally, those who criticize the abuse and misuse of used oil analysis, such as myself, apply this pretty universally.

 

[altaylar]

Well, you use the tool you have. Who has the ability to tear down 50 engines? Exxon Mobil, maybe.

So it is funny. Those who shoot holes in him using his spectrographic data to draw a conclusion that thinner oils show less wear (or really statistically the same), also tend to do it from the assumption that thicker oils show less wear. The reality is that if we can´t tell from the spectrograph, we also cannot tell from our preconceived notions or just what conventional wisdom says in our heads.

So if we toss the spectrograph data from UOA´s, then we must also toss preconceived notions that thicker oil results in less wear.

I think that even with thinner oils, engines are lasting longer than ever. They seem to outlast the vehicles themselves these days.

Lots of energy, spewing, and spasms go on among us all here over the difference between a 0w20 and a 5w30. It´s probably REALLY silly because the difference is so small.

So a question I have is....where are all these engines wearing out on 20 weight oil? What about 0w16? I don´t see a bunch of threads titled, ¨My Toyota with 0w8 oil is smoking!¨

You do have a very good point. While I strongly believe "garbage in garbage out" principle, and would not want to rely on UOA for wear results, a corpus of thousands of UOA can provide some value there, even if they are not a meaningful metric for a single engine.

I also have been saying that higher viscosity does not necessarily mean better protection. If that was the case, additives would not be the most expensive part of an oil. (Though a caveat here, insufficient HTHS is definitely a source of wear. So for high temp applications, going higher in viscosity, which in turn a proxy for hths, is crucial. Does not metter if that is for the engine, or gearbox/diff)

 

[OVERKILL]

Viscosity is important, but it's also not as important as some think. This is why most owner's manuals for decades had multiple grades you can use from 0w20-5w40. It's like a glove/hand fit.

Yes, and those charts showed grade relative to anticipated ambient temp, which of course influences lubricant operating temp in an application without a coolant/oil heat exchanger. They would also typically recommend a heavier oil for heavy duty usage, such as towing.

As oils have improved and oil temperature better controlled the need for such wide ranges being called out decreased, as a single grade like 0W-40 could cover the whole spectrum. Simultaneously however, CAFE mandates required that only the grade used to qualify for CAFE be called out in the owner's manual, so instead of perhaps a narrower optimized grade table, we end up with a single grade that's "acceptable" but perhaps not optimal under all conditions. This is somewhat hinted at in some of the Toyota manuals that note that a heavier grade may be appropriate under heavy duty operating conditions.

 

[buster]

There are so many variables to consider. That's why there is never a single, straight answer. Even just the fact that there are around 15-18 components in an oil.

I think where I stand now is:

1. Under warranty - use top tier API (Mobil 1 / Pennzoil Ultra Platinum etc.) or preferably Euro oil (MB/Porsche C30).
2. Out of warranty - whatever you want at your own risk.

I know some like to knock specifications, but these same folks are also saying "we can't prove its better, but trust us." So you come around full circle to a known quality (an approved product).

 

[GW.]

Those that have been here for a while surely have read the official wear studies posted. Unfortunately most are pay to download online. But again higher viscosity always shows less wear. It’s not made up. I could only dig up a few pages of hundreds of pages per study. Here is an example. I can’t seem to download the charts for free.

 

[buster]

Those that have been here for a while surely have read the official wear studies posted. Unfortunately most are pay to download online. But again higher viscosity always shows less wear. It’s not made up. I could only dig up a few pages of hundreds of pages per study. Here is an example. I can’t seem to download the charts for free.

View attachment 318359

I agree and there is no disputing that.

I could think of a situation where say - AMSOIL Signature Series 0w20 outperformed Dollar General 5w40 which sheared out of grade, left deposits or thickened and had a generic add pack. In this situation, it's possible a lower viscosity oil (AMSOIL Signature Series) kept the engine in better shape and possibly even had better wear protection because it was properly formulated.

This is where viscosity alone would fall apart and be less relevant.

 

[GW.]

I agree and there is no disputing that.

I could think of a situation where say - AMSOIL Signature Series 0w20 outperformed Dollar General 5w40 which sheared out of grade, left deposits or thickened and had a generic add pack. In this situation, it's possible a lower viscosity oil (AMSOIL Signature Series) kept the engine in better shape and possibly even had better wear protection because it was properly formulated.

This is where viscosity alone would fall apart and be less relevant.

I actually found some studies on wear caused from deposits. 100% a real thing.