Lowering NOx in TDI's a simple fix?

[wemay]

Poor US sales, a long history of spotty reliability in North America and now this. VW will be fine in other parts of the world where their sales were already strong, but it's going to be a long hard road here. If for no other reason than a bad reputation. At least Toyota and Honda had the reliability moniker to hang their hats on. And please, don't tell us VW has a reputation as a reliable marque in the US or Canada, not even average. Hopefully this allows them to re-focus and win customers back with well built cars. The designs are already spot on.

 

[CT8]

VW is on the right track.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: CT8
VW is on the right track.

 

[Shannow]

Was discussing with my boss (MBA, and certified company director), whose prediction is that VW's least painful option would be to step out of the US.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Was discussing with my boss (MBA, and certified company director), whose prediction is that VW's least painful option would be to step out of the US.


Being #1 may be so important to them that leaving the US might not be an option. You cannot be on top in sales without the US market. Their sales were poor here but there was a lot of room for growth. This may be a litigation nightmare though. One that as your MBA friend has opined, may be better to walk away from and build your sales elsewhere.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Was discussing with my boss (MBA, and certified company director), whose prediction is that VW's least painful option would be to step out of the US.


The US is too big and important a market to pull out of, when you concede a big market like the US it will really destroy VW's
ability to be recognized as a major global player.

Like the other poster said VW products are as good or better than most of the competition, memories of the consumer are short, and this will soon be forgotten, now it will cost them, but they realize that things like this can and will happen, I would even bet that VW has a contingency for just such a situation all major companies do.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Was discussing with my boss (MBA, and certified company director), whose prediction is that VW's least painful option would be to step out of the US.


Not necessary, and not going to happen.

The US loves to fine and sabre rattle at a company that has committed a crime in the media, and then breastfeed and diaper it back to profitability outside of the limelight.

This has been proven again and again.

The governor of our state had a company charged with a massive medicare fraud scheme. Being responsible for large scale white collar crime is a major high point on a resume these days.

When all of this is over, people will get back to loving German engineering, and VW is going to fleece back all of that money off of its customers and the government.

People have short memories, and to many people, it's the duty of every citizen of this nation to fall on their swords in order to aid and protect a wealthy employer.

Shutter VW, Bentley, Porsche, Lamborghini, and Bugatti in the US? I think not.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: wemay
And please, don't tell us VW has a reputation as a reliable marque in the US or Canada, not even average.

The dealer experience is the pits with them, too, and that seems to be a common theme in both the U.S. and Canada, with them having little clue about how to service their own diesels and even less desire to learn.

Maybe Shannow's boss's idea isn't a bad one. Yank all the dealerships for five years and start all over.

 

[TiredTrucker]

What never gets really discussed is how much cleaner even the VW engine exhaust is compared to previous decades. It has been estimated, by those who are paid to do such things, that modern diesel engines, across the spectrum, are so much cleaner, that it would take upward of 80-90 modern diesel engines to emit the level of pollutants that just 1 diesel engine of similar size and application emitted in the 80's and 90's.

While VW should have to make changes and get back in line, so to speak, massive fines and such are not really called for. VW is being used as an example to let other engine manufacturers know that if you diverge just one little bit from what the Gods at the EPA decide is right, then they will rain fire and brimstone down upon you for your insolence. This is a the same MO they are using for Navistar and their Maxxforce engine fiasco, and VW will incur the same wrath. But VW should have known better. After all, they are a company that comes from the land that fully refined, in the 1930's and 40's, this Fascist stuff the EPA is doing into an art form.

 

[SeaJay]

The big problem may be that to fix the emissions, power needs to be reduced. It is not a tenable situation to ask an owner to bring in car that is working perfectly to have its emissions adjusted resulting in a noticeable reduction in performance.

VW diesel cars were advertised as having both super MPG and performance. Perhaps increased emissions beyond that permitted by regulations was necessary to achieve these two competing goals. Time will tell if a working solution can be found to keep the MPG and performance at current levels along with reduced emissions at an acceptable cost to VW.

 

[The_Jeff]

The flash V2.0 will be hastily engineered and not that great for system soot nor power nor MPG. VW should be compelled to cover the affected emissions parts for free. This will motivate them to..

engineer a V3.0 which might come in a few years though, or one could probably get V1.0 "underground" from a tuner.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: gregoron
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
About a potential fix, I'm wondering if the engineers in the organization are so psychologically frazzled that they can't go forward working on a fix. Knowing that your department, and maybe you in particular, has caused the company billions in charges and lost goodwill, well, they aren't robots. I think a new team will have to be recruited, trained, familiarized, and that means we lose some of the intellectual traction for a while.


That would make for an interesting documentary. Although it is sad, I can't help picturing their working environment as something out of Dilbert or The Office.


Yes, I hadn't thought of that. Hollywood should be on this. Seriously.
When Wall Street screwed the entire planet for over $800 billion dollars U.S., and Iceland and Scotland, etc., went through their similar financial scandals, Hollywood gave us "Margin Call" with Jeremy Irons, the documentary "Inside Job" with Matt Damon narrating, "Too Big To Fail" with William Hurt, etc.

What should be the title of a documentary or dramatization (docu-drama)?
"Noxious Nein"
"Polluting Profits"
"Cheat Device"
"Engineering a Company Meltdown"
"Diesel Dorks Do Dusseldorf"
"Choking on Profits" ?????????????????

 

[Olas]

Meanwhile, Dr. Piech is laughing hard, thinking of all the enterprising DIYers and tuners raiding breakers and scrap yards around the world for ECUs to copy code from, and/or sell on eBay for hugely inflated sums.

Swap in the reflashed ECU for inspection and swap it out again after you get the pass

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: gregoron
From this quote in a Jalopnik article, it seems like there is a simple fix to this Dieselgate issue:

“It could be something very small,” said Carder, who’s the interim director of West Virginia University’s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions in Morgantown, about 75 miles south of Pittsburgh in the Appalachian foothills.

“It can simply be a change in the fuel injection strategy. What might be realized is a penalty in fuel economy in order to get these systems more active, to lower the emissions levels.”

Source:
http://jalopnik.com/researcher-who-uncovered-vws-diesel-cheating-says-fix-s-1732537775

My question for those familiar with diesel combustion, would adding an EGR lower NOx as they do with GDI engines? Gasoline direct injection engines also deal with direct injection and NOx emissions. High levels of NOx come up when GDI's run ultra lean (i.e. stratified charge mode) and the compression ratio is high. This happens during light-load or acceleration running conditions, or constant low speeds. Fuel is actually injected just before ignition and not during the intake stroke.

For diesel engines, couldn't the EGR recirculate more of the NOx back to the combustion chamber?


Egr is only effective at low loads, so goot enough to get you through the test cycle, but not on the open road.

Oh wait....



It's not the NOx that's redirected, the aim is to lower the Air-Fuel ratio so there's less excess oxygen and NOx doesn't form in such abundance.

Quite a few engines here in europe supposedly meet euro 6 emmisions with just an EGR valve and no DEF or LNT. However, if that's true in real life aswell remains to be seen. I expect ALL diesels will get checked shortly, as now BMW got the attention of the German government aswell for non-compliance

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
What never gets really discussed is how much cleaner even the VW engine exhaust is compared to previous decades. It has been estimated, by those who are paid to do such things, that modern diesel engines, across the spectrum, are so much cleaner, that it would take upward of 80-90 modern diesel engines to emit the level of pollutants that just 1 diesel engine of similar size and application emitted in the 80's and 90's.

While VW should have to make changes and get back in line, so to speak, massive fines and such are not really called for. VW is being used as an example to let other engine manufacturers know that if you diverge just one little bit from what the Gods at the EPA decide is right, then they will rain fire and brimstone down upon you for your insolence. This is a the same MO they are using for Navistar and their Maxxforce engine fiasco, and VW will incur the same wrath. But VW should have known better. After all, they are a company that comes from the land that fully refined, in the 1930's and 40's, this Fascist stuff the EPA is doing into an art form.


It's not the cleanliness compared to before, it's the Tier 2 Bin 5 standards, that it may not be meeting.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
What never gets really discussed is how much cleaner even the VW engine exhaust is compared to previous decades. It has been estimated, by those who are paid to do such things, that modern diesel engines, across the spectrum, are so much cleaner, that it would take upward of 80-90 modern diesel engines to emit the level of pollutants that just 1 diesel engine of similar size and application emitted in the 80's and 90's.

While VW should have to make changes and get back in line, so to speak, massive fines and such are not really called for. VW is being used as an example to let other engine manufacturers know that if you diverge just one little bit from what the Gods at the EPA decide is right, then they will rain fire and brimstone down upon you for your insolence. This is a the same MO they are using for Navistar and their Maxxforce engine fiasco, and VW will incur the same wrath. But VW should have known better. After all, they are a company that comes from the land that fully refined, in the 1930's and 40's, this Fascist stuff the EPA is doing into an art form.


If you take 2 VW Golf TDI, you're back at the level of 1 80s diesel though.

VW was even founded by Nazi's... Toxic gasses is probably in their DNA. The Nazi's started gassing undesired people by rerouting truck exhaust fumes into the (sealed) load compartment...

That's what makes this a big deal in my book, the circle of life so to speak...

 

[wemay]

I wonder what APR, Neuspeed, and Auto Tech Sport Tuning are working on with respect to this issue.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
VW was even founded by Nazi's... Toxic gasses is probably in their DNA. The Nazi's started gassing undesired people by rerouting truck exhaust fumes into the (sealed) load compartment...


You mean like the what's EPA is doing right under our noses?

Maybe I'm mistaken and it somehow differs in case of EPA. I mean, I'm sure they're doing it for the greater good while Germans did it for their own evil purposes...


EPA Experimenting on 10-year old children

EPA's secret gas chamber experiments: A deceitful failure

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Shutter VW, Bentley, Porsche, Lamborghini, and Bugatti in the US? I think not.


What, no love for Audi?

Maybe you meant to say that they would keep Audi in the US as it's by far the best of their brands?

 

[gregoron]

I do believe that it will be a simple fix like flashing the ECU.

In a way, VW may still benefit from this having been able to sell TDI's in the US that did not originally comply with EPA standards. They would not have been able to sell these non-urea injected cars here in the first place. If the fix is as easy as an ECU flash, VW will have gotten away selling TDI's without urea injection. The demand for these cars may actually go up.

On VW leaving the US market due to the fines and future liability? I don't think this will happen. They already have much at stake in the US. Besides, since they do have the Chattanooga factory here, I think the US gov't might go easy on them on the fines. The Chattanooga plant are both an asset and a liability for VW. It's an asset because it shows their commitment to the US market, which reflects well in congress. It's a liability in terms of cost. You have to pay to play.