Looks like the F-15 Has a New Trick

[IndyFan]

The legendary F-14 with it's awesome Phoenix missile finally has some competition.

An F-15C fired an AIM-120D AMRAAM at a BQM-167 drone, blowing it out of the sky for what the USAF claims is the record for longest air to air missile kill. This took place at Tyndall AFB's Weapons Evaluation Program on March 21.

The actual distance was not disclosed, but the Delta version of the AIM-120D is said to have a range of over 100 miles. The Phoenix, on paper is still supposed to have longer range, but allegedly has not recorded a kill as far out as this shot. It's range is supposed to be around 118 miles.

I'd love to know exactly how far this shot was, but I'm sure the Chinese would like to know, too, so I'm fine just hearing the claim that it is a record.

Looks like the F-15EX Eagle II could be one helluva gun slinger if it is packing 16 or 18 of these bad boys. I've seen where it could potentially even be equipped with up to 24 missiles, but I think that's only been a proposal.

There was once a B-1R proposal where they would put a big new radar on the Bone along with 4 F-22 engines and load it up with something like 80 AMRAAMS. It would go up against a large formation, decimating it, then racing away at high speeds that no fighter could sustain while F-22's would sneak in from behind and pick off the survivors. Cool concept, but it must have had some weaknesses because it ultimately never materialized. I'm sure the cost was a huge factor. But wouldn't it have been fun to try this out at Red Flag?

@Astro14 It sure took a long time for the USAF to get to where the Eagle drivers might pick a fight with the Tomcats and not demand they leave the Phoenix at home! (Or still maybe they would. )

In all seriousness, the fleet looks like it got a nice upgrade in protection with the F-18E or F-35C carrying these AMRAAM Deltas, restoring much of the range lost when the Phoenix and Tomcat were retired.

 

[Dave Hess]

Technology improves everything in military aviation.

Really not surprised it had a kill greater than 100 miles.

 

[wpod]

The F15 is a Girls fighter jet. The F14 ,, now that is a mans fighter jet.

 

[spasm3]

Compare the warheads. the Aim-54 has 135lb warhead, with a proximity fuse. The Aim-120 has a 50lb warhead i would imagine it would have to be closer to the target with the Quadrant Target Detection to destroy the target without a hit with the smaller warhead.

Really the missiles have different roles. Astro can correct me if i'm wrong. But the phoenix as designed to take out soviet bear bombers at long range, and iirc incoming cruise missles.

 

[y_p_w]

Isn't the Phoenix more than 50 year old technology? I thought the big trick to increase range was going up to a really high altitude before dropping down to engage. Is the D doing it at typical aircraft altitudes?

 

[spasm3]

Isn't the Phoenix more than 50 year old technology? I thought the big trick to increase range was going up to a really high altitude before dropping down to engage. Is the D doing it at typical aircraft altitudes?

It is old and as far as i know obsolete. The only aircraft that could carry it was the F-14. Each weighed over 1000lbs. The Cat could carry 6, but i don't think carrier land with 6.

We need Astro14 here.

 

[y_p_w]

It is old and as far as i know obsolete. The only aircraft that could carry it was the F-14. Each weighed over 1000lbs. The Cat could carry 6, but i don't think carrier land with 6.

We need Astro14 here.

I heard some talk that the USAF was thinking of installing a suitable radar system to control it and perhaps use the B-1B as a Phoenix launch platform.

The Phoenix had a pretty simple original mission. It was meant to get at bombers and other aircraft that could launch anti-ship missiles. And it was supposed to be controlled by the guy in the back seat.

 

[IndyFan]

The F15 is a Girls fighter jet. The F14 ,, now that is a mans fighter jet.

Lol. ok.

 

[IndyFan]

Compare the warheads. the Aim-54 has 135lb warhead, with a proximity fuse. The Aim-120 has a 50lb warhead i would imagine it would have to be closer to the target with the Quadrant Target Detection to destroy the target without a hit with the smaller warhead.

Really the missiles have different roles. Astro can correct me if i'm wrong. But the phoenix as designed to take out soviet bear bombers at long range, and iirc incoming cruise missles.

Yep. But I doubt the Amraam would have trouble knocking down a Bear. The warhead is smaller, but it is also probably more advanced and would likely explode even closer to the target.

And yes, the Phoenix is 50 years old, which makes it all the more impressive. But I'm sure it was updated at least a few times, too. And it doesn't appear anyone else in the world beat the Phoenix previously, either. And we also put men on the Moon more than 50 years ago and haven't done it since.

Either way, the Phoenix appears to remain the gold standard in many ways. I'm just happy to see that this kind of range/capability is now spread beyond just the F-14 and across more of our fighters. It does no good if it is a retired missile on a retired platform that doesn't even exist in the Boneyard anymore.

 

[IndyFan]

I heard some talk that the USAF was thinking of installing a suitable radar system to control it and perhaps use the B-1B as a Phoenix launch platform.

The Phoenix had a pretty simple original mission. It was meant to get at bombers and other aircraft that could launch anti-ship missiles. And it was supposed to be controlled by the guy in the back seat.

That would have been the Bone-R I referred to in the original post. It would be loaded with AMRAAMs, not Phoenix. And it would have carried a $**t load of them. The proposal also included the Pratt F119 engines from the F-22. What a badass it would have been. But who knows, it may have had some vulnerability, too, being not so stealthy. Don't be shocked if we see a B-21 Raider configured with a large loadout of AAM's. Its stealth, new weapon systems and data linking would make it much more suitable for that kind of mission IF it is truly a viable mission. I don't think any of us can or will know if it is truly a good idea or just some kind of bluff. But is sure as heck sounds cool.

 

[ragtoplvr]

At over one million a missile, in any long war how will be able to afford or make enough missiles.

 

[Greasymechtech]

At over one million a missile, in any long war how will be able to afford or make enough missiles.

Like how we always do, print more money

 

[IndyIan]

At over one million a missile, in any long war how will be able to afford or make enough missiles.

I don't know what the kill rate would be, but I think at even 20%, I think any air force would sign up for $5mil /kill. Unless China starts churning out drones by the 10 of thousands, then we'll need a different plan....

 

[y_p_w]

That would have been the Bone-R I referred to in the original post. It would be loaded with AMRAAMs, not Phoenix. And it would have carried a $**t load of them. The proposal also included the Pratt F119 engines from the F-22. What a badass it would have been. But who knows, it may have had some vulnerability, too, being not so stealthy. Don't be shocked if we see a B-21 Raider configured with a large loadout of AAM's. Its stealth, new weapon systems and data linking would make it much more suitable for that kind of mission IF it is truly a viable mission. I don't think any of us can or will know if it is truly a good idea or just some kind of bluff. But is sure as heck sounds cool.

There was a photo from the 80s showing what a B-1B could theoretically carry, although it might have been based on weight. I found it from a few sources. The weapons were just Photoshopped (or whatever was used at the time) in though.

 

[IndyFan]

I don't know what the kill rate would be, but I think at even 20%, I think any air force would sign up for $5mil /kill. Unless China starts churning out drones by the 10 of thousands, then we'll need a different plan....

Lasers. Ask the Navy.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Lasers. Ask the Navy.

Take a drive down to Crane to get zapped. lol

 

[Astro14]

Glad to see the F-15 finally catching up in the air to air game...only took 48 years or so...

While missiles are not 100%, the Pk (Probability of Kill) is very high. The AMRAAM is an excellent missile. Pk is driven by several factors, including maneuverability, discrimination (ability to see the target, particularly against ECM), precision (closer to the target, the more effective a warhead of given size), warhead design, and plain old reliability.

The AIM-54 was updated to the -C model after the fall of Iran compromised the -A model. The -C model had a multitude of improvements, including better precision, better target discrimination, better maneuverability, and a huge increase in active seeker power output. Numbers are still classified, but it was quite a radar set in the nose of the AIM-54C. The C+ missile removed the need for liquid cooling of the electronics package. The AIM-54 had enough big electronics in the radar (including a very powerful transmitter) that keeping it cooled, by the airplane's own radar cooling system, was necessary. The AWG-9 radar is still the most powerful (in watts) radar the US has ever put in a fighter. The large antenna gave it excellent target resolution. Sophisticated processing has replaced raw power. But against some countermeasures, raw power is still the best way to see a target.

"Missile trucks" are a concept dating back to the early 1960s. "Aerie" was a concept plane with AWG-9 radars on an airliner airframe and wing pylons carrying 24 missiles. Lethal, if all the threats are killed, but vulnerable if not. A B-1 with a ton of AMRAAM and a radar targeting set (F-22 radar in a pod) would be in interesting capability.

 

[Astro14]

It is old and as far as i know obsolete. The only aircraft that could carry it was the F-14. Each weighed over 1000lbs. The Cat could carry 6, but i don't think carrier land with 6.

We need Astro14 here.

The F-14, in later years, could carry 6, and land with 6, though the fuel reserves would be low.

When the F-14 landing weight was increased from 51,800 to 54,000, it was done to accommodate bombs, but it enabled landing with six AIM-54. 51,800 was the limit for older carriers with less-capable arresting gear, even though the airplane was cleared to 54,000. Those carriers all retired decades ago. The NIMITZ-class was good to go.

The missile itself weighed just under 1,000 lbs. But the rail to carry it (with a liquid cooling pump, launch apparatus, and structure) was another 500 lbs. in the belly. Slightly less on the glove pylons.

The missile required the AWG-9 radar. They were a system. You can't put a Phoenix on anything else. The AWG-9 tracked up to 24 targets, and firing (either pilot, or RIO, could fire, but generally, the SOP was to have the RIO do the selecting and shooting) was based on the targets that were selected, in priority order, either automatically or manually. The missile was initially guided by a data link from the AWG-9. It flew towards the target, at a ludicrous altitude, and would reach a ludicrous speed. At a certain time to go until intercept, the missile went "active" - turning on it's own radar and tracking the target to intercept. No further support needed from the fighter or the AWG-9.

This allowed some very useful tactics. The F-14 could leave the engagement, never get anywhere close to the enemy, stay well outside their maximum missile range, while the Phoenix was locked on and bore down on that enemy with a 135 lb warhead. IF some of the enemy survived, and honestly, it was unlikely, no matter what they did, then the next engagement would be a greatly reduced number of enemy fighters against F-14 with AIM-54s, and we could repeat the process.

The Iraqis faced Iranian F-14s with AIM-54A, and lost over 70 airplanes to the F-14, and most of the kills were AIM-54. Iran did lose one F-14 during the war, which was flying alone, and faced several Iraqis employing deceptive tactics.

In 1991, they knew they were facing USN F-14s with AIM-54C, flying together, supported by E-2s or AWACS.

AIM-54 Phoenix - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[IndyFan]

Glad to see the F-15 finally catching up in the air to air game...only took 48 years or so...

While missiles are not 100%, the Pk (Probability of Kill) is very high. The AMRAAM is an excellent missile. Pk is driven by several factors, including maneuverability, discrimination (ability to see the target, particularly against ECM), precision (closer to the target, the more effective a warhead of given size), warhead design, and plain old reliability.

The AIM-54 was updated to the -C model after the fall of Iran compromised the -A model. The -C model had a multitude of improvements, including better precision, better target discrimination, better maneuverability, and a huge increase in active seeker power output. Numbers are still classified, but it was quite a radar set in the nose of the AIM-54C. The C+ missile removed the need for liquid cooling of the electronics package. The AIM-54 had enough big electronics in the radar (including a very powerful transmitter) that keeping it cooled, by the airplane's own radar cooling system, was necessary. The AWG-9 radar is still the most powerful (in watts) radar the US has ever put in a fighter. The large antenna gave it excellent target resolution. Sophisticated processing has replaced raw power. But against some countermeasures, raw power is still the best way to see a target.

"Missile trucks" are a concept dating back to the early 1960s. "Aerie" was a concept plane with AWG-9 radars on an airliner airframe and wing pylons carrying 24 missiles. Lethal, if all the threats are killed, but vulnerable if not. A B-1 with a ton of AMRAAM and a radar targeting set (F-22 radar in a pod) would be in interesting capability.

Hey, better late than never! Lol!

What you said about raw power reminded me of what Victor Bolenko said about the Mig 25. He said they were not allowed to turn on the radar on the ground because it could cook a rabbit at 100 yards! I'm pretty sure that part of the plan with the Mig was that it needed some big power to burn through jamming, of which it would encounter a significant amount when intercepting strategic bombers. I wonder how much power that radar had? I do remember some in the intel community poking fun at seeing vacuum tubes in the Mig 25, but then later admiring some of the Soviet's simple solutions to problems at which the West would throw gobs of money and possibly unnecessary tech.

 

[y_p_w]

Hey, better late than never! Lol!

What you said about raw power reminded me of what Victor Bolenko said about the Mig 25. He said they were not allowed to turn on the radar on the ground because it could cook a rabbit at 100 yards! I'm pretty sure that part of the plan with the Mig was that it needed some big power to burn through jamming, of which it would encounter a significant amount when intercepting strategic bombers. I wonder how much power that radar had? I do remember some in the intel community poking fun at seeing vacuum tubes in the Mig 25, but then later admiring some of the Soviet's simple solutions to problems at which the West would throw gobs of money and possibly unnecessary tech.

The Phoenix was always solid state though. Still - it was an analog guidance system.

A long time ago they might make custom ICs just for small runs - in the hundreds to thousands. In my industry we couldn't really justify the costs unless we were making product in the millions. But if it was important enough, the cost didn't really matter. These days the performance of FPGAs (which can be programmed to do digital functions, but faster than just running software) is really good. They do use more power, cost more per part, etc. but it can be justified for small numbers of products. Also - they can be reprogrammed if needed - possibly in the existing environment. I heard there was an order for a few million dollars worth of FPGA for the F-35 since the parts used for the design were old and about to go out of production.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/c...-keep-f35s-and-other-military-aircraft-flying

They might be needed as replacement parts, although I'm not sure what's happening with new production F-35s. It might be possible to do a complete redesign with new FPGAs, but where it's functionally identical.