Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor

[PRND3L]

+1

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro

The computer does NOT need to control the throttle! THAT is the god dam& problem! I absolutely hate that system. Give me a real gas pedal with a real throttle cable! W T F are these companies thinking? Our 2007 GMC 2500HD has this [censored] and it SUCKS! My friends yota has it and he says it SUCKS. I dont really know anybody that has it that doesnt complain about it when it is brought up.

My Mazda 3 has one and I can't tell the difference froma a cable, except that the transmission downshifts don't require the gas pedal to be floored, the shifts automatically firm up depending on the throttle position and the transmission can skip 2 gears at once if you floor it. Drive by wire throttle is not the problem, the problem is the stupid programming that goes with the majority of them. Program the electroniv throttle to act like a cable driven one and it will perform like a cable driven throttle without the shorfalls of one and it will be more responsive to the input.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro

The computer does NOT need to control the throttle! THAT is the god dam& problem! I absolutely hate that system. Give me a real gas pedal with a real throttle cable! W T F are these companies thinking? Our 2007 GMC 2500HD has this [censored] and it SUCKS! My friends yota has it and he says it SUCKS. I dont really know anybody that has it that doesnt complain about it when it is brought up.

You are a few years late. All vehicles have ETC. It is truly a better system. Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[hone eagle]

My '99 Ford has it.

 

[prax]

I agree with what KrisZ said. There's nothing wrong with ETC. The problem is the programming. Not enough testing done to make sure the code is good and works the way you want all the time. It's also hard to find somebody who writes good code.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: prax

I agree with what KrisZ said. There's nothing wrong with ETC. The problem is the programming. Not enough testing done to make sure the code is good and works the way you want all the time. It's also hard to find somebody who writes good code.

Might not be a code issue either. Could be a chip manufacturing issue, wire harness quality issue...since such a low number of vehicles have this issue my guess is that it is either a firmware issue or manufacturing flaw.

 

[ProStreetCamaro]

Wow I will go ahead and say it. We have some gullible people here if you think electronic throttle is a better system. In my eyes it has zero benefits to it. I for one hate a laggy gas pedal. I hate when they over complicate something that should be so simple. The more you complicate things the more problems you run into. Especially when it comes to electronic stuff. And it is biting toyota right where it hurts right now and has killed people. Yup gotta love electronic throttle control. Give me a throttle cable any day of the week. You can not flaw a throttle cable. It wither works or it doesnt and it has worked for how many years now?

 

[chrome]

ECT is important in the implementation of vehicle stability systems. Even something as simple as Traction Control works far better with ECT, rather than trying to cut power by ignition retard or fuel cut. A full vehicle stability system needs ECT. ECT helps make auto trans shift smoother, by pulling back power slightly during upshifts, especially at WOT. Some DSG systems will even blip the throttle during downshifts. ECT allows for non-linear throttle control for different speeds. In come cars with powerful engines, the throttle response is intentionally softened at slower speeds to stop the car being "too jumpy" when trying to park, for example. ECT plays a role in fuel economy. It has been shown that a wider throttle at a high gear during cruising reduces pumping losses in the engine, which helps mpg. A throttle cable is not fail-proof either. There has been cases when the cable frayed enough to cause a sticking throttle. A rusty cable has similar effects.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: chrome

Even something as simple as Traction Control works far better with ECT, rather than trying to cut power by ignition retard or fuel cut.

Ford managed to make it work without ETC, they had a box which went inline with the throttle cable and lengthened it when it wanted to cut back on throttle.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: chrome

A throttle cable is not fail-proof either. There has been cases when the cable frayed enough to cause a sticking throttle. A rusty cable has similar effects.

Exactly what I was thinking. MOST of us who have driven for a few decades, could tell you about a stuck throttle cable.

 

[PRND3L]

OTOH, I'm willing to bet ALL of us have at one time or another experienced a computer malfunction.

 

[demarpaint]

Here's how I feel, Toyota screwed up big time and should pay damages and make sure every one of their cars that has this problem is fixed no matter what the cost. People should know how to react in an emergency, but when panic sets in people start doing crazy things. No driver should be blamed for a design flaw rearing its ugly head. Hopefully the person if something bad happens can figure a way out, but the blame is on Toyota and no one else. Toyota was flat out wrong here and should make this right, and soon!

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: chrome

ECT is important in the implementation of vehicle stability systems. Even something as simple as Traction Control works far better with ECT, rather than trying to cut power by ignition retard or fuel cut. A full vehicle stability system needs ECT. ECT helps make auto trans shift smoother, by pulling back power slightly during upshifts, especially at WOT. Some DSG systems will even blip the throttle during downshifts. ECT allows for non-linear throttle control for different speeds. In come cars with powerful engines, the throttle response is intentionally softened at slower speeds to stop the car being "too jumpy" when trying to park, for example. ECT plays a role in fuel economy. It has been shown that a wider throttle at a high gear during cruising reduces pumping losses in the engine, which helps mpg. A throttle cable is not fail-proof either. There has been cases when the cable frayed enough to cause a sticking throttle. A rusty cable has similar effects.

Good points. Also with ETC they can potentially eliminate: the cruise control cable, a separate TPS, and seperate idle air control valve. There was good reasons for going to drive by wire.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: PT1

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

I don't know, but that sounds like a bad spot for an ignition button.

It is not a bad spot for the button. It is a fine location. The guy didn't know about the 3 second shutdown. You could move the button to timbuktu and if he didn't press it for 3 seconds the engine won't shut down. They don't need to make any of the silly suggestions on here other than fix the cause of the ETC accelerating on it's own. It has to be in the software/firmware module because it is happening across several platforms.

I was replying to someone else that said if there wasn't a 3 second delay what if some passenger accidentally hit the button while driving because of it's location near the center console and other buttons. My suggestion that the button should be near where traditional keys are located and there is no real need for a 3 second dealy seem perfectly valid to me. of course they need to fix the ETC accelerating on it's own but nothing is fool proof and I don't see anything silly about suggesting to make the button emulate more how a key functions as a better failsafe for the typical driver.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: PRND3L

OTOH, I'm willing to bet ALL of us have at one time or another experienced a computer malfunction.

A computer malfunction as in the "car computer"? Not me, the closest thing to that was an ignition module in an mid 80's ford tempo.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

Originally Posted By: chrome

ECT is important in the implementation of vehicle stability systems. Even something as simple as Traction Control works far better with ECT, rather than trying to cut power by ignition retard or fuel cut. A full vehicle stability system needs ECT. ECT helps make auto trans shift smoother, by pulling back power slightly during upshifts, especially at WOT. Some DSG systems will even blip the throttle during downshifts. ECT allows for non-linear throttle control for different speeds. In come cars with powerful engines, the throttle response is intentionally softened at slower speeds to stop the car being "too jumpy" when trying to park, for example. ECT plays a role in fuel economy. It has been shown that a wider throttle at a high gear during cruising reduces pumping losses in the engine, which helps mpg. A throttle cable is not fail-proof either. There has been cases when the cable frayed enough to cause a sticking throttle. A rusty cable has similar effects.

Good points. Also with ETC they can potentially eliminate: the cruise control cable, a separate TPS, and seperate idle air control valve. There was good reasons for going to drive by wire.

I agree that ETC by itself is not bad. The Toyota's ETC implementation is bad. We have heard about the DBW hesitation issues in toyota/lexus cars since the beginning, annoying and potentially dangerous when one wants to accelerate fast and the software ignores the pedal for a few seconds (I know, they call it non-linear response, big misnomer). Now, we learned that the fail mode in ETC is WOT. Not very reassuring. Combine it with the lack of fail-safe solutions (cannot be terminated by braking and off button that is SOFTWARE operated and not intuitive, big no no safety speaking) and you have quite a few dead people. This is bad design and not just user error. If this was just user error, we would see constant rate of these accidents across time and brands. Instead, they exploded in Toyota/lexus after the ETC implementation.

 

[prax]

Those issues were fixed with an ECU update. If you feather the pedal, the computer adapts to your driving style so that when you do hit the gas, you get hesitation.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

Originally Posted By: chrome

ECT is important in the implementation of vehicle stability systems. Even something as simple as Traction Control works far better with ECT, rather than trying to cut power by ignition retard or fuel cut. A full vehicle stability system needs ECT. ECT helps make auto trans shift smoother, by pulling back power slightly during upshifts, especially at WOT. Some DSG systems will even blip the throttle during downshifts. ECT allows for non-linear throttle control for different speeds. In come cars with powerful engines, the throttle response is intentionally softened at slower speeds to stop the car being "too jumpy" when trying to park, for example. ECT plays a role in fuel economy. It has been shown that a wider throttle at a high gear during cruising reduces pumping losses in the engine, which helps mpg. A throttle cable is not fail-proof either. There has been cases when the cable frayed enough to cause a sticking throttle. A rusty cable has similar effects.

Good points. Also with ETC they can potentially eliminate: the cruise control cable, a separate TPS, and seperate idle air control valve. There was good reasons for going to drive by wire.

I agree that ETC by itself is not bad. The Toyota's ETC implementation is bad. We have heard about the DBW hesitation issues in toyota/lexus cars since the beginning, annoying and potentially dangerous when one wants to accelerate fast and the software ignores the pedal for a few seconds (I know, they call it non-linear response, big misnomer). Now, we learned that the fail mode in ETC is WOT. Not very reassuring. Combine it with the lack of fail-safe solutions (cannot be terminated by braking and off button that is SOFTWARE operated and not intuitive, big no no safety speaking) and you have quite a few dead people. This is bad design and not just user error. If this was just user error, we would see constant rate of these accidents across time and brands. Instead, they exploded in Toyota/lexus after the ETC implementation.

I agree Toyota has a bad design implementation of ETC on top of a possible defect in software or electronics.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro

The computer does NOT need to control the throttle! THAT is the god dam& problem! I absolutely hate that system. Give me a real gas pedal with a real throttle cable! W T F are these companies thinking? Our 2007 GMC 2500HD has this [censored] and it SUCKS! My friends yota has it and he says it SUCKS. I dont really know anybody that has it that doesnt complain about it when it is brought up.

My Mazda 3 has one and I can't tell the difference froma a cable, except that the transmission downshifts don't require the gas pedal to be floored, the shifts automatically firm up depending on the throttle position and the transmission can skip 2 gears at once if you floor it. Drive by wire throttle is not the problem, the problem is the stupid programming that goes with the majority of them. Program the electroniv throttle to act like a cable driven one and it will perform like a cable driven throttle without the shorfalls of one and it will be more responsive to the input.

My Expedition does ALL those things without ETC.......... And I'm not sure how a throttle blade is going to be "more responsive" being opened by an electrical motor vs being opened directly by a cable.....

 

[swalve]

The reason ETC *can* be better is that there is a difference between the power that we ask for (position of the accelerator) and the power the engine can give (position of the throttle plate). Driver wants 100% power? Stomp on the accelerator. But the engine may not operate at 100% power having the throttle plate open 100% wide immediately. The computer knows the engine better than you and will put the throttle plate exactly where it needs to be to deliver the requested power. It can also do things like change gears in the tranny based on the requested power, rather than having to wait for the engine to spin up and calculate the gear ratio. If implemented correctly, anyway.