F-15 Grounding

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BGK

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Can anyone explain how using F-15's or similar aircraft helps prevent hijackings? Shooting down a plane filled with innocent civilians doesn't seem to be a viable option...

F-15 Grounding Strains U.S. Air Defenses
By SCOTT LINDLAW – 2 hours ago

FRESNO, Calif. (AP) — The grounding of hundreds of F-15s because of dangerous structural defects is straining the nation's air defense network, forcing some states to rely on their neighbors' fighter jets for protection, and Alaska to depend on the Canadian military.

The F-15 is the sole fighter at many of the 16 or so "alert" sites around the country, where planes and pilots stand ready to take off at a moment's notice to intercept hijacked airliners, Cessnas that wander into protected airspace, and other threats.

The Air Force grounded about 450 F-15s after one of the fighters began to break apart in the air and crashed Nov. 2 in Missouri. An Air Force investigation found "possible fleet-wide airworthiness problems" because of defects in the metal rails that hold the fuselage together. It is not clear when the F-15s will be allowed to fly again.

Compounding the problem created by the grounding, another fighter jet used for homeland defense, the F-16, is in high demand for Iraq operations. And the next-generation fighter, the F-22 Raptor, is only slowly replacing the aging F-15.

Military officials say they moved quickly to patch any holes in the homeland air-defense system, and they report an increase in air defense sorties in the past month, using replacement F-16s. But they acknowledge difficulties.

"When you're filling in, obviously it's going to cause some strain," said Mike Strickler, a spokesman with North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, which is operated by the U.S. and Canada. "You're spreading resources a little thinner than we would like."

But air defenses have not been compromised, Strickler said. "We can be anywhere at any time," he said.

With the F-15s in Massachusetts out of commission, the Vermont Air National Guard is covering the whole Northeast. The Minnesota Air National Guard is manning sites in Hawaii. In Louisiana, the Illinois Air National Guard has been filling in.

And with Oregon's fighters grounded, the California Air National Guard is standing watch for the entire West Coast, an area of more than 300,000 square miles that is home to more than 46 million people in California, Oregon, Washington, and slices of Arizona and Nevada.

The California Air National Guard said this is first time in history that a single state's fighter wing is providing coverage for an entire coast.

The California Guard is keeping three alert sites — in Riverside and Fresno, Calif., and Portland, Ore. — equipped and staffed with pilots and mechanics.

"As a unit we're kind of stressed, but everyone's accepting this as a challenge and all the men and women of the unit are acting as professionally as you could ever hope for," said Col. Gary Taylor, operations group commander for the Fresno-based 144th Fighter Wing of the California Air National Guard.

The unit has had to borrow F-16s from bases in Indiana and Arizona and trim back training for certain overseas operations.

For three weeks in November, Canadian CF-18s filled in for the F-15s over Alaska. Several times, the Canadian fighters scrambled to "do an identification" of Russian bombers flying exercises outside U.S. airspace near Alaska, said Maj. Mike Lagace, a Canadian military spokesman for NORAD.

"We flew up, met with the long-range patrol, basically let them know, `Hi, folks, we're here too,'" Lagace said. Russian warplanes have been flying exercises near Alaska and Canada with increasing frequency in recent months.

Now, a brand-new squadron of F-22s based in Alaska is standing in for the state's grounded F-15s, said Tech. Sgt. Mikal R. Canfield, a spokesman at Elmendorf Air Force Base.

As for the F-15 pilots in Portland who have been largely idled by the no-fly order, they have told the visiting California airmen they are eager to get back in the cockpit.

"They're thankful for our help," said Col. Ryan A. Orian, the 144th Fighter Wing's vice commander. "But they'd love for us to leave."
 
It's only a viable option if that plane is headed for a major city with thousands at risk. Sacrifice a few to save many. It's sad, but that's what this world has come to.

The thing that disturbs me is printing this article so all the world (including our enemy) knows about this problem.
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny
It's only a viable option if that plane is headed for a major city with thousands at risk. Sacrifice a few to save many. It's sad, but that's what this world has come to.

The thing that disturbs me is printing this article so all the world (including our enemy) knows about this problem.


Agree 1000%

Lets let everyone know when to try something.

Got to love the press.
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Quote:
The thing that disturbs me is printing this article so all the world (including our enemy) knows about this problem.


The thing that is going to disturb me is the tremendous appropriations bill that this disclosure will allow to be passed with ease due to the release of this article ..in such vivid detail ..telling an enemy that has about as much hope of toe to toe combat with this or even Korean war capable fighter aircraft over American soil. Buy some Migs to fill in the gaps ...or for that matter the stuff that we GAVE Pakistan with a deal early on in our adventures in Afghanistan.


You've got to get some friends that used to live in the eastern block nations to understand how this sorta thing really works.
 
The F-15 is a late '60s design with the average plane 27 years old. The whole fleet was already subjected to flight restrictions due to airframe fatigue before the recent incident. In an emergency, the grounded planes could be cleared for flying.

I'm more worried about water, food and energy supply disruptions caused by saboteurs and black hats.
 
Originally Posted By: moribundman
I'm more worried about water, food and energy supply disruptions caused by saboteurs and black hats.


The guys in clown outfits and/or Little Italy shirts scare the crappe out of me. Now back to my ham sandwich.
 
Some of the older F-15 Eagles are getting up there in terms of service life (flight hours), especially the F-15A.

What happened to the F-4 Phantom 20 years ago........is happening to the F-15 today.
 
Originally Posted By: pepper32
Yet the B52 which was fielded in 1956 is still in service.


The B-52s still in service are the H model which was built in the 1960s, not all that much newer. One of the main things keeping them going so long has been some major rebuild programs which involver various amount of re-skinning and replacement of structural members.

I don't know what percentage of the present B-52s structure is original from the factory metal, but suspect it's quite low.

None of that takes away from what a great aircraft it has been.

Just think how great they will have been when the last of them are finally retired in 2040.
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2040? Are you serious? Amazing. The Cold War was an awesome motivator ..with equally awesome remedies.

I imagine that they had a routine rotation of refit for the strategic fleet. It's obvious that they didn't refit them en mass. I would have thought that the same routine schedule would be used to refit/replace our tactical aircraft. They didn't all appear at once.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Wouldn't the F-15 frames have been subjected to more stress than that of the B-52's?


They would have also been designed to take lot more stress.

Pre massive computer intensive design there were surprise failures, but for the most part more reserve was built into parts designs because they just didn't have the design tools to design close to the limits.
 
Mickey mouse BITOG edit time limits $%^#%$#^


The 2040 target for retiring B-52s has been there for a long time, well over 10 years IIRC.

C-130s have a similar retirement date and came out about the same time. Their retirement dates floats around more though. They were also built for lot more years.

When I was in the Air Force in 1964 there was an article in the AF Times about a shiny new B-52 pilot who was flying the same B-52 his father had flown. By now there should have been several grandsons flying grandpaws B-52.
 
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By now there should have been several grandsons flying grandpaws B-52.


..and by 2040 ..quite a few more.
 
There are evidently a couple of three generation B-52 pilot families and a few more two generation families. There was also a father and two son family in the B-52 fraternity.

I like the nick name, BUFF. Big Ugly Fat F@#k.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

The thing that is going to disturb me is the tremendous appropriations bill that this disclosure will allow to be passed with ease due to the release of this article ..

Exactly Gary. This whole effort at National Security will cause us to go to Bankruptcy.

As sad as it is we lose 10's of thousands on auto acidents every year and don't bat an eye. I am willing to take my chances on get blown up in a Mall for the sake of not going bankrupt and looking for grasshoppeers/ands.c0ckroaches to eat and survive.

WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PROTECT EVERY [censored]' BUILDING IN THE U.S. SCHEESCH....Wait...lets get rid of illegals and close our boarders..what a dumb idea politicians love illegals..
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Well, if we really DO need this level of tactical readiness ..and need to field aircraft for sustained combat, then don't waste the population's resources to fund it by running them broke supporting third world economic expansion to line Wall St.'s pockets.

Like ...just what is there to protect? A bunch of people going broke?
 
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Like ...just what is there to protect? A bunch of people going broke?


I left out the "other shoe" aspect here.


...or a lessor bunch of people getting rich?
 
F16s could fill in but they're heavily committed in Iraq. If the threat is high enough they'll probably still scramble grounded aircraft. In the meantime maybe we could ask other countries to provide fighter cover in the US, at leat until we're done looking for whatever it is we're looking for in Iraq.
 
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