Let's Talk Porsche 911

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Is this the car you were thinking of selling a couple of years back?
I recall saying to my wife that for less than the price of a new HAH I could be driving something really neat.
Not that I thought about it seriously enough to PM you at the time,
I also looked at a ragtop SC around the time that I bought the e36 BMW.
The 911 came with thousands of dollars in receipts for recent work done while the BMW came with maintenance history going back to its delivery new.
The BMW was also much less expensive than the Porsche would have been, so the BMW it was. A really good and trouble free little car.
I gave up on the idea of Corvette ownership about thirty years ago but the thought of owning a 911 still crosses my mind now and then,
Might be a good use for the unused leave payouts I'll have coming when I retire less than two years hence.


Hi, yes. I still plan to rationalize the fleet, but since I put the car up for sale then, I started my own practice and am taking care of elderly and ill parents so any car plans and anything else that involves an investment of time, has been back burnered. I miss my e36.
 
Originally Posted by Audios

Speaking as a shop owner, the best thing to do when considering any european car is find your budget range and find the car at the very top. The one with extensive records and maintenance, kept in great shape, one owner etc. Often times cars towards the bottom of the price bracket require much more in immediate maintenance and will cost more upfront than the nicest ones in your bracket. As an example weve seen $10k E46 M3s come through that need 10k in work, and at least 5k right away, when the $17k one with less miles and original owner needs.....nothing.


That's the strategy I follow when buying BMWs; haven't had a bad one yet.
 
My boss has a 2011 911 Turbo S, I haven't ridden in it yet. Need to soon...
20.gif
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Oh, to the OP one final thought; Pre Purchase Inspection! Have fun.

And that PPI includes a cylinder leak down test, along with (or perhaps instead of) a conventional compression test.
 
Originally Posted by Olas
Originally Posted by KneeGrinder
Originally Posted by Olas
The best 911 IMO was the 964. Last of the aircooled engines, best proportioned and most attractive, not overly technological (no DI or electric steering rack or DSG) with plenty of driver involvement and feedback.
Test drive a 964 and it will convince you to go shopping.


You have good taste. But 1995-97's are 993's and they are the last of the "Oil" cooled motors.



If you want a 993, you go buy yourself a 993.

However, in respect to the thread title "Lets talk Porsche 911" I did exactly that. I talked about the most attractive and enjoyable 911. It doesnt say "Lets Talk 993/996 etc", and the OP states that a black 911 pulled up beside them - there were plenty 964s on the road in the 90s..


There was a golden time when Porsches were modern enough to be good but not so modern that all the goodness has been legally mandated away. that golden time was the 964 era.



Are you OK? I have owned a 964, actually 2, and a 993, they are very close to the same car...Neither are actual 911's, Both were plentiful in the 90's. Neither have "Liquid Coolant" 996's Have this liquid coolant stuff in a radiator.
 
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.
2) Driving a porsche without the electronic wizards and the heavy back end is not something for a novice. Your wrx was wayyy more forgiving.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.
2) Driving a porsche without the electronic wizards and the heavy back end is not something for a novice. Your wrx was wayyy more forgiving.


Well, I know what you're getting at - that no Porsche is cheap to own. They're all going to be expensive. But, have you checked what new Porsche 911s are going for in 2020? Over 90 grand.

I feel that I could find a nice example for around a quarter of that price...depending upon which model, the condition it's in, etc.

When you make the decision to buy a car like a Porsche 911, you have to go into it knowing what you're getting into. In addition to the 911, I'm a longtime fan of Japanese vehicles and motorcycles. I admire their refinement, their quality, and the Japanese OEMs' commitment to reliability. I've experienced those things in my ownership of the 4 Japanese vehicles I've had, and multiple Japanese motorcycles. But the appeal of something like a 911 is different. With a 911, you get something that's maybe intangible - character. History. Pedigree. And you have to acknowledge that it's not going to be like owning an appliance like my Tacoma, that has 226,000 miles with almost nothing replaced besides the u-joints and wheel bearings. I understand all that, and, one of the reasons I started this discussion here is to start doing some research and trying to figure out exactly what it is that I would be getting myself into, if I did take the plunge and buy one of these cars.

Your 2nd point is well-taken, and I'm aware of the vastly different handling dynamics of a car with rear weight bias.

You're correct that the Subaru WRX is a pussycat in comparison.

I may be a novice when it comes to Porsche 911s, but, having tens of thousands of miles in the saddle of a 1000cc superbike on the mountain roads of Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Virginia, I'm no stranger to the dynamics of handling a powerful and flighty machine on challenging (even, dangerous) roads. Believe me, though, it's nothing I'd approach nonchalantly.
 
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Ws6
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.
2) Driving a porsche without the electronic wizards and the heavy back end is not something for a novice. Your wrx was wayyy more forgiving.


Well, I know what you're getting at - that no Porsche is cheap to own. They're all going to be expensive. But, have you checked what new Porsche 911s are going for in 2020? Over 90 grand.

I feel that I could find a nice example for around a quarter of that price...depending upon which model, the condition it's in, etc.

When you make the decision to buy a car like a Porsche 911, you have to go into it knowing what you're getting into. In addition to the 911, I'm a longtime fan of Japanese vehicles and motorcycles. I admire their refinement, their quality, and the Japanese OEMs' commitment to reliability. I've experienced those things in my ownership of the 4 Japanese vehicles I've had, and multiple Japanese motorcycles. But the appeal of something like a 911 is different. With a 911, you get something that's maybe intangible - character. History. Pedigree. And you have to acknowledge that it's not going to be like owning an appliance like my Tacoma, that has 226,000 miles with almost nothing replaced besides the u-joints and wheel bearings. I understand all that, and, one of the reasons I started this discussion here is to start doing some research and trying to figure out exactly what it is that I would be getting myself into, if I did take the plunge and buy one of these cars.

Your 2nd point is well-taken, and I'm aware of the vastly different handling dynamics of a car with rear weight bias.

You're correct that the Subaru WRX is a pussycat in comparison.

I may be a novice when it comes to Porsche 911s, but, having tens of thousands of miles in the saddle of a 1000cc superbike on the mountain roads of Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Virginia, I'm no stranger to the dynamics of handling a powerful and flighty machine on challenging (even, dangerous) roads. Believe me, though, it's nothing I'd approach nonchalantly.

The issue isnt that 911s are powerful. They really arent. It's that the older ones without the nannies require understanding that many dont possess. If you enter a corner, you're doing it on throttle, and pinning it a lot sooner than in a vette or Golf or wrx of whatever, and if you decide you need to slow down and start to lift, that thing is going to swap ends on you.

When I was a kid, 944s2 was relatively affordable to procure. I looked long and hard at them...and then I learned that I would be on the hook for thousands upon thousands of dollars in routine maintenance. Never mind things that broke. Also, at this point, the age of the car you may be considering as well as the 911 premium will also work against you heavily.

I understand that this is an emotional purchase, and you're gonna do it "because". That's cool. Me, too, many times. I'd just advise that since you must, pick a car that only costs about 1/3 or less of your budget even if it's in top shape. That other 3rd will come in handy, even on a minty low mile car.
 
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Oh, to the OP one final thought; Pre Purchase Inspection! Have fun.

And that PPI includes a cylinder leak down test, along with (or perhaps instead of) a conventional compression test.


Unless it's got a miss or is running poorly, why? And if so, a relative compression test with a scope would be much simpler, or you could check through the OBD for misfire counts. This isn't the 50's anymore.
 
Originally Posted by PowerSurge
Originally Posted by Ws6
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.


Not true at all.


Depends on the model and if we're talking "total amount" or "amortized monthly amount of repairs", as well as whether or not OP is a skilled German auto mechanic or if he plans to pay one, etc. Some repairs on the older 911's are NOT cheap, easy, or fun. They are also not rare.

911's are NOT cheap.

Let's assume he intends to get a 993. A clean one will run about $30-35K out the door.
-They have known valve guide issues. If this comes up, it's about $4K to fix.
-Secondary Air Injection can cause carbon issues: @10 hours labor, I believe for the fixing.
-The routine 30K miles service interval is a $2K investment, provided nothing is wrong.

Then we have to presume he might just drive it like it was meant to be driven, and we need to factor in clutch, diff, etc. potential failures and routine replacement (clutch) (brakes).

Now we have to also take into account that this is a 2 decade old car, and hoses, belts, various seals and rubber items, etc. are going to soon need (if not already) replacing, even on a well kept model.

The P car is not cheap.
 
^^^^. Having owned one for 19 years I can tell you that you need to do some research on what a new one goes for today. Kirk out.
 
Originally Posted by PowerSurge
Originally Posted by Ws6
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.


Not true at all.



Agree...they are certainly reasonable in ownership cost to comparable older cars. Yes, parts prices can be very high, but the cars are very durable for a high performance vehicle. To grossly oversimplify, things just break less on these and when you fix an issue, it usually stays fixed. Porsche also generally uses very high quality components; fasteners, connectors, etc. Granted I am comparing them to the mostly British vehicles I've owned, but living with a well bought Porsche is not a daunting prospect.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Ws6
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.
2) Driving a porsche without the electronic wizards and the heavy back end is not something for a novice. Your wrx was wayyy more forgiving.


Well, I know what you're getting at - that no Porsche is cheap to own. They're all going to be expensive. But, have you checked what new Porsche 911s are going for in 2020? Over 90 grand.

I feel that I could find a nice example for around a quarter of that price...depending upon which model, the condition it's in, etc.

When you make the decision to buy a car like a Porsche 911, you have to go into it knowing what you're getting into. In addition to the 911, I'm a longtime fan of Japanese vehicles and motorcycles. I admire their refinement, their quality, and the Japanese OEMs' commitment to reliability. I've experienced those things in my ownership of the 4 Japanese vehicles I've had, and multiple Japanese motorcycles. But the appeal of something like a 911 is different. With a 911, you get something that's maybe intangible - character. History. Pedigree. And you have to acknowledge that it's not going to be like owning an appliance like my Tacoma, that has 226,000 miles with almost nothing replaced besides the u-joints and wheel bearings. I understand all that, and, one of the reasons I started this discussion here is to start doing some research and trying to figure out exactly what it is that I would be getting myself into, if I did take the plunge and buy one of these cars.

Your 2nd point is well-taken, and I'm aware of the vastly different handling dynamics of a car with rear weight bias.

You're correct that the Subaru WRX is a pussycat in comparison.

I may be a novice when it comes to Porsche 911s, but, having tens of thousands of miles in the saddle of a 1000cc superbike on the mountain roads of Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Virginia, I'm no stranger to the dynamics of handling a powerful and flighty machine on challenging (even, dangerous) roads. Believe me, though, it's nothing I'd approach nonchalantly.

The issue isnt that 911s are powerful. They really arent. It's that the older ones without the nannies require understanding that many dont possess. If you enter a corner, you're doing it on throttle, and pinning it a lot sooner than in a vette or Golf or wrx of whatever, and if you decide you need to slow down and start to lift, that thing is going to swap ends on you.

When I was a kid, 944s2 was relatively affordable to procure. I looked long and hard at them...and then I learned that I would be on the hook for thousands upon thousands of dollars in routine maintenance. Never mind things that broke. Also, at this point, the age of the car you may be considering as well as the 911 premium will also work against you heavily.

I understand that this is an emotional purchase, and you're gonna do it "because". That's cool. Me, too, many times. I'd just advise that since you must, pick a car that only costs about 1/3 or less of your budget even if it's in top shape. That other 3rd will come in handy, even on a minty low mile car.


Again. I'm well-aware of the challenges that come with driving a 911 at speed on a curvy mountain road or racetrack. And it's not something I'd take lightly.

I appreciate you bringing up some of the mechanical problems that can present themselves. While I'm no 911 expert, I am an aircraft mechanic by trade and I'm not new to taking apart complex assemblies and putting them back together.

Like I was saying, starting this discussion is the beginning of a process for me. I'm not in a hurry. Finding the 911 that I want could be a years-long process. I plan to learn these cars intimately. That may eventually include things like engine removal and possibly disassembly, eventually. I'm not one to try to fix what's not broken, but, with something like a Porsche 911 that I'm passionate about, tackling a larger project like that is not something I'm afraid of, and I have the skills and the knowhow to do it, provided I have the necessary tech data. And I have a feeling there's a wealth of tech data and information out there about these cars.
 
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Ws6
1) if you cannot afford a new P car, you cant afford an old one.
2) Driving a porsche without the electronic wizards and the heavy back end is not something for a novice. Your wrx was wayyy more forgiving.


Well, I know what you're getting at - that no Porsche is cheap to own. They're all going to be expensive. But, have you checked what new Porsche 911s are going for in 2020? Over 90 grand.

I feel that I could find a nice example for around a quarter of that price...depending upon which model, the condition it's in, etc.

When you make the decision to buy a car like a Porsche 911, you have to go into it knowing what you're getting into. In addition to the 911, I'm a longtime fan of Japanese vehicles and motorcycles. I admire their refinement, their quality, and the Japanese OEMs' commitment to reliability. I've experienced those things in my ownership of the 4 Japanese vehicles I've had, and multiple Japanese motorcycles. But the appeal of something like a 911 is different. With a 911, you get something that's maybe intangible - character. History. Pedigree. And you have to acknowledge that it's not going to be like owning an appliance like my Tacoma, that has 226,000 miles with almost nothing replaced besides the u-joints and wheel bearings. I understand all that, and, one of the reasons I started this discussion here is to start doing some research and trying to figure out exactly what it is that I would be getting myself into, if I did take the plunge and buy one of these cars.

Your 2nd point is well-taken, and I'm aware of the vastly different handling dynamics of a car with rear weight bias.

You're correct that the Subaru WRX is a pussycat in comparison.

I may be a novice when it comes to Porsche 911s, but, having tens of thousands of miles in the saddle of a 1000cc superbike on the mountain roads of Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Virginia, I'm no stranger to the dynamics of handling a powerful and flighty machine on challenging (even, dangerous) roads. Believe me, though, it's nothing I'd approach nonchalantly.

The issue isnt that 911s are powerful. They really arent. It's that the older ones without the nannies require understanding that many dont possess. If you enter a corner, you're doing it on throttle, and pinning it a lot sooner than in a vette or Golf or wrx of whatever, and if you decide you need to slow down and start to lift, that thing is going to swap ends on you.

When I was a kid, 944s2 was relatively affordable to procure. I looked long and hard at them...and then I learned that I would be on the hook for thousands upon thousands of dollars in routine maintenance. Never mind things that broke. Also, at this point, the age of the car you may be considering as well as the 911 premium will also work against you heavily.

I understand that this is an emotional purchase, and you're gonna do it "because". That's cool. Me, too, many times. I'd just advise that since you must, pick a car that only costs about 1/3 or less of your budget even if it's in top shape. That other 3rd will come in handy, even on a minty low mile car.


Again. I'm well-aware of the challenges that come with driving a 911 at speed on a curvy mountain road or racetrack. And it's not something I'd take lightly.

I appreciate you bringing up some of the mechanical problems that can present themselves. While I'm no 911 expert, I am an aircraft mechanic by trade and I'm not new to taking apart complex assemblies and putting them back together.

Like I was saying, starting this discussion is the beginning of a process for me. I'm not in a hurry. Finding the 911 that I want could be a years-long process. I plan to learn these cars intimately. That may eventually include things like engine removal and possibly disassembly, eventually. I'm not one to try to fix what's not broken, but, with something like a Porsche 911 that I'm passionate about, tackling a larger project like that is not something I'm afraid of, and I have the skills and the knowhow to do it, provided I have the necessary tech data. And I have a feeling there's a wealth of tech data and information out there about these cars.

Then I'd suggest you get something truly unique or special. It sounds like you have both the money, and the time/skillset to truly appreciate it like very few people could. It would be nice to see someone like you get a truly special model.
 
That's the plan. Ideally, this would be something I'd hold onto and be able to possibly pass down to a son or daughter, eventually.
 
Originally Posted by john_pifer
That's the plan. Ideally, this would be something I'd hold onto and be able to possibly pass down to a son or daughter, eventually.

I'm not up and up on all the variants and their various desireabilities, but I hope you keep us posted.
 
While I don't want to chart out the premature demise of the gasoline powered automobile, I am thinking that we all will be, somewhat, "forced" into driving electric vehicles... at least to some degree. There are, currently, increasingly home-deliveries / refilling of gasoline here in Vancouver, Canada... because gas stations are decreasingly evident on streetcorners. I think that irresponsibly vigilante-like behaving rabid environmentalists will be a scourge for many of us who are automotive enthusiasts... and last of all (and maybe of little consequence to many) - no one will know how (or care to know how) to drive manual transmissions.

Sorry, maybe y'all have caught me in down-mood, hehe... but as to passing said Porsche on to son or daughter... Ida know....
 
Originally Posted by Ws6


...

Depends on the model and if we're talking "total amount" or "amortized monthly amount of repairs", as well as whether or not OP is a skilled German auto mechanic or if he plans to pay one, etc. Some repairs on the older 911's are NOT cheap, easy, or fun. They are also not rare.

911's are NOT cheap.

Let's assume he intends to get a 993. A clean one will run about $30-35K out the door.
-They have known valve guide issues. If this comes up, it's about $4K to fix.
-Secondary Air Injection can cause carbon issues: @10 hours labor, I believe for the fixing.
-The routine 30K miles service interval is a $2K investment, provided nothing is wrong.

Then we have to presume he might just drive it like it was meant to be driven, and we need to factor in clutch, diff, etc. potential failures and routine replacement (clutch) (brakes).

Now we have to also take into account that this is a 2 decade old car, and hoses, belts, various seals and rubber items, etc. are going to soon need (if not already) replacing, even on a well kept model.

The P car is not cheap.


SAI - Secondary Air Injection fouling occurs on the 1996-1998 model. The 1995 model is NOT OBD II... and therefore has no SAI code... in fact, may not even have SAI. I don't know. But, then, the 1995's in some sense, then, are the more desirable cars of the four year range.... other than being older.

Re the normal stuff that gets old on a car... many of the elastomers associated with the bodywork - do age on German cars... maybe a bit faster than on a domestic. Expensive to repair.

The point is -- again, don't forget that a Porsche gets old at the same rate as any other car. I agree that many of the components are, indeed, durable. But access to many components is a PITA.

I recently learned that, actually, in many respects, engine access in a Caman or in a Boxster may, at least for some or many aspects of regular maintenance, may be easier to access than on a 911.
 
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