Let's Talk Porsche 911

Wondering when the PDK transmission came in...? Much nicer than Tiptronic. Having said this, and 'cuz I like simple, stupid - I'd buy the slower, more off-the-Ark manual. Still very nice.
 
Though only really, really lately a six cylinder naturally aspirated 6 is again available - the latest Caman turbo 4, non Sport model, with 6 speed manual - is comparatively a good value... and would be a new, un-molested car with full waranty. Good sport driving chops...
 
Originally Posted by sasilverbullet
Pic of my current car below. It's 2003 C2 coupe with a tiptronic. I purchased it almost two years ago for $22K and it had 81K miles on it. It's my daily driver and I now have 110K on it. This is my 5th Porsche, first 911. I like this one the best of all.

My car is a 996.2. 1999 to 2001 are 996.1, 3.4 liter. 2002 to 2005 is the 996.2 with a 3.6. The differences between them is night and day. The 996.2 has a much stiffer chassis and too many other differences to list here.

You can get a decent 2002 or 2003 C2 with around 70K miles on it for about $20K. Figure on $6K you'll need to put into it right away. Once you've done that it's normal maintenance.

Don't be shy, do a lot of reading over on rennlist.com, look for the 996 forum. I hang out there as sasilverbullet. There's a ton of threads on what to watch out for on these cars.

Get one, you'll enjoy the many, many smiles!
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Nice car! Good choice!

The Porsche forums is very educative and helpful, very high knowledge. Best helping car forums I have ever used. That is a good asset too. But don't be alarmed about the running costs, most Porsche people throw money and parts on those cars which is not really needed, but probably only gives owners a warm fuzzy feeling most of the time. I've got my turbo for years and serviced it myself, and only change parts with good reason to do it. And I use the car alot. Not even 1000 US$ a year, including bigger turbos and stuff.... Could not imagine how to get more bang for the bucks. The Viper I got is miles behind.
 
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Wondering when the PDK transmission came in...? Much nicer than Tiptronic. Having said this, and 'cuz I like simple, stupid - I'd buy the slower, more off-the-Ark manual. Still very nice.

It came with the DI engines of the 997.2. It is very good until it breaks, then it is incredibly high priced. It is a more sporty box than the Tiptronic S, but with paddle shifter mod and a TCU tune it will also be very good. Nothing like automatics generally. The Tiptronic S from the turbo is a Mercedes box with Porsches specs and ECU. It has generally very few problems. The manuals have lots of problems actually.
 
Originally Posted by Sveina
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Wondering when the PDK transmission came in...? Much nicer than Tiptronic. Having said this, and 'cuz I like simple, stupid - I'd buy the slower, more off-the-Ark manual. Still very nice.

It came with the DI engines of the 997.2. It is very good until it breaks, then it is incredibly high priced. It is a more sporty box than the Tiptronic S, but with paddle shifter mod and a TCU tune it will also be very good. Nothing like automatics generally. The Tiptronic S from the turbo is a Mercedes box with Porsches specs and ECU. It has generally very few problems. The manuals have lots of problems actually.


Sveina, can you tell us in general some of the prbs with the mauals?

Re the PDK, like all dual clutch automated manual transmissions, none of them double-declutch (downshiftig). I have to worry about what happens to the synchro's long-term. You can downshift with abandon at high speeds with a PDK. You do not directly feel the "pain" the syncho's go through!
 
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT


Sveina, can you tell us in general some of the prbs with the mauals?

Re the PDK, like all dual clutch automated manual transmissions, none of them double-declutch (downshiftig). I have to worry about what happens to the synchro's long-term. You can downshift with abandon at high speeds with a PDK. You do not directly feel the "pain" the syncho's go through!


Problems with those manuals are the usual falling out of gear, mainly on deceleration. A very high amount of this failure. Usually ends up in a costly full rebuild. I've seen gear fallout completely too, but that is more seldom. The regular cars don't have an oil heat exchanger on the manual box, so they get hot on track. The need for gear selector mods to get a good feel in it, very usual complaint. And the frequent clutch changes. Like the turbo has a hydraulic actuator system that is very low on feel but is light, so people upgrade to the GT2 style to get feel in the pedal. It makes it very hard tho. And usual DMF problems. Clutch components are not cheap. And is a big hassle to do on the cars. The upside of the manual is that is can handle alot of power stock, and has 6 gears, as 5 on the Tiptronic S. The Tiptronic S MB box usually can't handle more than about 600 hp without it is adviced to upgrade it a bit, but other than that is is pretty much bulletproof.
 
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT


Sveina, can you tell us in general some of the prbs with the mauals?

Re the PDK, like all dual clutch automated manual transmissions, none of them double-declutch (downshiftig). I have to worry about what happens to the synchro's long-term. You can downshift with abandon at high speeds with a PDK. You do not directly feel the "pain" the syncho's go through!


Problems with those manuals are the usual falling out of gear, mainly on deceleration. A very high amount of this failure. Usually ends up in a costly full rebuild. I've seen gear fallout completely too, but that is more seldom. The regular cars don't have an oil heat exchanger on the manual box, so they get hot on track. The need for gear selector mods to get a good feel in it, very usual complaint. And the frequent clutch changes. Like the turbo has a hydraulic actuator system that is very low on feel but is light, so people upgrade to the GT2 style to get feel in the pedal. It makes it very hard tho. And usual DMF problems. Clutch components are not cheap. And is a big hassle to do on the cars. The upside of the manual is that is can handle alot of power stock, and has 6 gears, as 5 on the Tiptronic S. The Tiptronic S MB box usually can't handle more than about 600 hp without it is adviced to upgrade it a bit, but other than that is is pretty much bulletproof.
 
Thank you Sveina...

Does Porsche even have the parts for these manual 'boxes? They may be Getrag's, or maybe ZF's... There are a few specialist firms out there that do get into the boxes... names fail me - but there is a US firm that replaces the dog-teeth on the speed-gears, using electron beam welding as a method. Very specialized.

It seems that if the boxes come out of gear on the over-run, the backwards chamfer on the dog-teeth may not be aggressive enough?

What do you make of my comment re the impunity with which folks downshift the PDK... and the long-term impact?

I found the name of the specialty firm: http://www.gboxweb.com/service.html
 
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Thank you Sveina...

Does Porsche even have the parts for these manual 'boxes? They may be Getrag's, or maybe ZF's... There are a few specialist firms out there that do get into the boxes... names fail me - but there is a US firm that replaces the dog-teeth on the speed-gears, using electron beam welding as a method. Very specialized.

It seems that if the boxes come out of gear on the over-run, the backwards chamfer on the dog-teeth may not be aggressive enough?

What do you make of my comment re the impunity with which folks downshift the PDK... and the long-term impact?


Not really sure how much of the parts that is available, as most P owners just ship them to specialized companies to do the job for them, while installing some GT2 gears and stuff. I know the internals of the Tiptronic best, as I have been lurking around inside some MB boxes. The parts to the tiptronic isn't really available from Porsche either. Usual cost for fixing the manual is 5-10k I see people quote. PDK I don't know mechanically first hand so I am not sure what the effects would be, but seems like the higher torque engines break them alot, specially the Panamera turbo. Here is a typical quote 20k for fixing it. The problem with the gear fallout is heavily discussed, but it seems that it can happen both ways, but most frequent in the overrun yes. If you really like to get into it rennlist or 6speedonline have alot of pictures and detailed information about it.
 
Thx for your reply, Sveina.

Expensive cars, to be sure, if they go "south". A person needs to have the financial resources at the ready if they want to run them as daily drivers... or, acquire one very close to new, and treat it well.
 
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Thx for your reply, Sveina.

Expensive cars, to be sure, if they go "south". A person needs to have the financial resources at the ready if they want to run them as daily drivers... or, acquire one very close to new, and treat it well.


I agree if you don't do any of the maintenance yourself. If you can change oil and do brakes yourself, then you can handle most things that come up, you'll save a ton of money. My local P dealer is $280 an hour!
 
Originally Posted by 1978elcamino
Get one with a blown engine and LS swap it. One of the shows did an episode on it


Hoovies Garage, and then he nuked the LS as well.

Speaking as a shop owner, the best thing to do when considering any european car is find your budget range and find the car at the very top. The one with extensive records and maintenance, kept in great shape, one owner etc. Often times cars towards the bottom of the price bracket require much more in immediate maintenance and will cost more upfront than the nicest ones in your bracket. As an example weve seen $10k E46 M3s come through that need 10k in work, and at least 5k right away, when the $17k one with less miles and original owner needs.....nothing.
 
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Thanks for all the advice and information so far, guys.

I'd love an air/oil-cooled 911, but not sure I could afford one. Either to buy or to maintain! Heck, I'm really daydreaming at this point.

I would do all the maintenance I could on it myself, which would be everything except internal engine work or anything that would require engine removal, simply because of a lack of space right now (I'm in an apartment. I do have a garage, but it's the long, narrow type, and I have a lot of motorcycles and bicycles in there right now). Eventually the goal is to buy a house with a workshop or build a workshop in which I could tackle larger jobs.

I did go over and join the Rennlist forum and will start doing some research. Probably buy a book or 2 on the 911.

Keep those photos coming!
 
Originally Posted by sasilverbullet
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Thx for your reply, Sveina.

Expensive cars, to be sure, if they go "south". A person needs to have the financial resources at the ready if they want to run them as daily drivers... or, acquire one very close to new, and treat it well.


I agree if you don't do any of the maintenance yourself. If you can change oil and do brakes yourself, then you can handle most things that come up, you'll save a ton of money. My local P dealer is $280 an hour!


Certainly I would do all the mtce. myself, to be sure. What I'm saying...is when the manual gearbox or the PDK gets (internally) knackered - and you can't buy individual parts or repair jigs... like say on a BMW or on some Porsche's... only buy mega-$ factory rebuilt boxes. Yikes. Or when you lose a $25k replacement engine... and when you sell the car it's not worth a penny more than the car that hasn't lost its engine.

Maybe I'm overly cautious... but it CAN and does happen.
 
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Here is ours; '99 996 with ~54K Summer only miles. We've had it since 2001. 996 C2, full leather interior, sport steering wheel, premium sound (still not that great), LSD, non-smokers kit, GT3 console delete, OEM or stock except for cocoa mats. M1 15w-50 and Mann or Hengst filters since we've had her.

I've gone back and forth on the air cooled cars, driven more than I can remember, and will own one at some point, probably a 930. That said, the later water cooled cars are just better...cars. Do they have the cache' of the earlier ones? No, but speed, braking, handling, etc. improved as the years went on. The early air cooled cars, as desirable as they are, just aren't that quick either.

If I was looking right now, outside of the 930, and if price wasn't an issue, I'd be looking at the 993's. Beautiful, well built, last of the non water cooled cars and they have that great sound.

996's and 997's are still the best value of the 911's (wish some could have told us that back in '01) and are very good cars. I've driven a number of them including on the track and don't notice that much of a driving difference between the 996.1 and .2's, but the interiors got a much better look and feel, stereos also improved if that matters. The 996 and 997's are very easy to live with. Our 911 (and contemporary Boxster S, the cars share a lot of components) have been extremely dependable w/ the 996 needing only an ignition switch, alternator and air/oil separator as significant unexpected items since '01. The Boxster S has needed an ignition switch, plug tube o rings and, oddly, headlight washers. Both cars also needed radios over the years, I replaced them with new upgraded factory units.

The IMS issue is overblown and there is so much info out there, I wont beat that dead horse....however, being conservative, I did replace them on both of our cars. I also now have the two completely functional, tight and smooth original IMS bearings on my shelf. We also have peace of mind.

Some negatives to the 996/997's include unavailability of some interior trim pieces and parts prices that rival Cessna (applies to all Porsches). Access to the top of the engine is a challenge. Whatever plastic Porsche used for the exterior trim on the early ones fades (the faded pieces in the pic are now replaced), and the cars drain their batteries quickly when not used.

You are smart to be doing this research. Keep doing it, talk to actual owners or folks with direct experience. Drive as many as you can. Buy the absolute best car you can afford including $1K-2K or so for anything that needs to be done, or that you want to do. Good luck and enjoy.
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
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Here is ours; '99 996 with ~54K Summer only miles. We've had it since 2001. 996 C2, full leather interior, sport steering wheel, premium sound (still not that great), LSD, non-smokers kit, GT3 console delete, OEM or stock except for cocoa mats. M1 15w-50 and Mann or Hengst filters since we've had her.

I've gone back and forth on the air cooled cars, driven more than I can remember, and will own one at some point, probably a 930. That said, the later water cooled cars are just better...cars. Do they have the cache' of the earlier ones? No, but speed, braking, handling, etc. improved as the years went on. The early air cooled cars, as desirable as they are, just aren't that quick either.

If I was looking right now, outside of the 930, and if price wasn't an issue, I'd be looking at the 993's. Beautiful, well built, last of the non water cooled cars and they have that great sound.

996's and 997's are still the best value of the 911's (wish some could have told us that back in '01) and are very good cars. I've driven a number of them including on the track and don't notice that much of a driving difference between the 996.1 and .2's, but the interiors got a much better look and feel, stereos also improved if that matters. The 996 and 997's are very easy to live with. Our 911 (and contemporary Boxster S, the cars share a lot of components) have been extremely dependable w/ the 996 needing only an ignition switch, alternator and air/oil separator as significant unexpected items since '01. The Boxster S has needed an ignition switch, plug tube o rings and, oddly, headlight washers. Both cars also needed radios over the years, I replaced them with new upgraded factory units.

The IMS issue is overblown and there is so much info out there, I wont beat that dead horse....however, being conservative, I did replace them on both of our cars. I also now have the two completely functional, tight and smooth original IMS bearings on my shelf. We also have peace of mind.

Some negatives to the 996/997's include unavailability of some interior trim pieces and parts prices that rival Cessna (applies to all Porsches). Access to the top of the engine is a challenge. Whatever plastic Porsche used for the exterior trim on the early ones fades (the faded pieces in the pic are now replaced), and the cars drain their batteries quickly when not used.

You are smart to be doing this research. Keep doing it, talk to actual owners or folks with direct experience. Drive as many as you can. Buy the absolute best car you can afford including $1K-2K or so for anything that needs to be done, or that you want to do. Good luck and enjoy.


Good post, Wings&Wheels! And that's a beautiful 996!

You make a good point about the water-cooled cars just being better, on paper, as far as power, livability, performance. And I've gone back and forth about that.
 
Is this the car you were thinking of selling a couple of years back?
I recall saying to my wife that for less than the price of a new HAH I could be driving something really neat.
Not that I thought about it seriously enough to PM you at the time,
I also looked at a ragtop SC around the time that I bought the e36 BMW.
The 911 came with thousands of dollars in receipts for recent work done while the BMW came with maintenance history going back to its delivery new.
The BMW was also much less expensive than the Porsche would have been, so the BMW it was. A really good and trouble free little car.
I gave up on the idea of Corvette ownership about thirty years ago but the thought of owning a 911 still crosses my mind now and then,
Might be a good use for the unused leave payouts I'll have coming when I retire less than two years hence.
 
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