Let’s change the “thick vs. thin” up a little: Mercon LV vs ULV!

[Brons2]

3 drain and fills on my vehicle will get you to 91.2%, FWIW.

 

[The Critic]

Probably, @The Critic needs to see this as well. He is an unbeliever and mistakenly thinks that I have something against him or I don't know my ATFs. I don't have anything against him, and I do know my ATFs.

In the other thread you stated:

Thank you for posting. The additive package looks identical to Mobil 1 LV ATF HP (Dexron HP) and HPL Blue/Green ATF. Which means it also uses the same friction modification chemistry and anti wear package.

Anyone with the slightest clue about ATF's will understand that the friction modification chemistry cannot be identified (and revealed) via an UOA.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Anyone with the slightest clue about ATF's will understand that the friction modification chemistry cannot be identified (and revealed) via an UOA.

You are 100% correct. However, the friction modification chemistry is part of the additive package. You cannot separate the two. I can't tell any variance in the elemental levels of the fluids I listed. Based on personal experience with these fluids, they all share the same friction modification chemistry.

I recommend you try one of them, at least. You will be exceedingly happy with the results. Just make sure you replace your old fluid entirely, for the best possible outcome.

3 drain and fills on my vehicle will get you to 91.2%, FWIW.

For the 2016 RAM 1500 I got a PPE Aluminum Oil Pan, which holds 2 extra quarts of oil. I switched once from to all AMSOIL ATL, and hated the shift quality, it was way to firm, and exposed all the shortcomings of the transmission, being a first gen 8HP70, like the rough 1-2 shift on the first start of the day when it's really cold outside, or when coming to a stop it does a harsh 2-1 shift on the downcoast because it leaves the torque convertor clutch engaged down to the first shift, all of which is stupid programing for best fuel economy. Anyway, the extra 2 quarts allowed me to replace 95% of the fluid. Finally, I switched the 8HP70 to Mobil 1 LV ATF HP and couldn't be happier. I also considered TES-668, but didn't have a VOA at the time for comparison.

In the Hyundai, I can overfill the transmission by 1 quart, that's how I can get out nearly everything and replace 98%. I overfill the first 2 times and only drive for 5 miles each time with the transmission cold. The last time I fill it up correctly.

The ZF 8HP70 is impossible to overfill by any meaningful amount, maybe 2-3 ounces, at best.

I hope this helps.

 

[The Critic]

I can't tell any variance in the elemental levels of the fluids I listed. Based on personal experience with these fluids, they all share the same friction modification chemistry.

Fair, but again, you're focused on the metallic additives that are detectable. There are other components that are not metallic that may be part of the FM package.

I do have 4 gal of HPL Green that I plan to use at some point, I just have not found an application for it....yet.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Fair, but again, you're focused on the metallic additives that are detectable. There are other components that are not metallic that may be part of the FM package.

I do have 4 gal of HPL Green that I plan to use at some point, I just have not found an application for it....yet.

Fair enough, however, you would see some variance in the DI package if the friction modification chemistry would be different, as it's tied to the additive package in more than one way. For example, in MT fluid for manual transaxles you see lots of Calcium and Magnesium, as that's part of the friction modification chemistry. I old Valvoline MaxLife (pre-2020), Red Line D6 and AMSOIL ATL, you see identical amounts of Phosphorus, Calcium, and Boron. I've used both Red Line and AMSOIL and they both share the same firm shifting characteristics. My point: you would see a variance in the elementals, or additional elementals, if there was a variance in the friction modification chemistry of the fluids I listed. However, there is no reason for Infineum to make any changes, as they dialed it in perfectly.

 

[Brons2]

You are 100% correct. However, the friction modification chemistry is part of the additive package. You cannot separate the two. I can't tell any variance in the elemental levels of the fluids I listed. Based on personal experience with these fluids, they all share the same friction modification chemistry.

I recommend you try one of them, at least. You will be exceedingly happy with the results. Just make sure you replace your old fluid entirely, for the best possible outcome.


For the 2016 RAM 1500 I got a PPE Aluminum Oil Pan, which holds 2 extra quarts of oil. I switched once from to all AMSOIL ATL, and hated the shift quality, it was way to firm, and exposed all the shortcomings of the transmission, being a first gen 8HP70, like the rough 1-2 shift on the first start of the day when it's really cold outside, or when coming to a stop it does a harsh 2-1 shift on the downcoast because it leaves the torque convertor clutch engaged down to the first shift, all of which is stupid programing for best fuel economy. Anyway, the extra 2 quarts allowed me to replace 95% of the fluid. Finally, I switched the 8HP70 to Mobil 1 LV ATF HP and couldn't be happier. I also considered TES-668, but didn't have a VOA at the time for comparison.

In the Hyundai, I can overfill the transmission by 1 quart, that's how I can get out nearly everything and replace 98%. I overfill the first 2 times and only drive for 5 miles each time with the transmission cold. The last time I fill it up correctly.

The ZF 8HP70 is impossible to overfill by any meaningful amount, maybe 2-3 ounces, at best.

I hope this helps.

The PPE trans pan for the 6R80 only showed coverage for the 2011-17 models, last time I checked

 

[toyotacarnage]

Here's my experience with the 10R80 in the 2017 ford f150. I threw all of the misconceptions or people's hesitation out of the window and went forward using MAG1 #915 in the unit. (I ran three, 5 gallon buckets through the system, including a pan filter drop and added a transmission filter in line, Baldwin BT8316 with mounting kit and used the flush machine) Now mind you, this is a truck used in a fleet with over 115k miles. Mag1 runs a Viscosity @ 100°C cSt 7.38 value. Running a little thicker than the stock motorcraft Mercon ULV. I changed that fluid around 50k because it was being used to tow and rent. I have had no problems whatsoever, however I know it's due for another change, soon. The fluid remains red. I've noticed shudder went away, shifts are not noticeable unless you're manually shifting from the stalk. Temps are down. Usually stick between 140°-190°F. Before it used to be 198°F-220°F.

I feel with the design flaws known in a timeframe of trucks built, they had defective torque converters with a weld flaw on them where the clutch was grinding out on the torque converter back plate and sending debris throughout the transmission or people dealing with shuddering (that shudder has something to do with the PWM signal from TCM-If you can edit the the programming)

We can go on with the viscosity debate, all I have to say is even with the Toyota Yaris or Corolla with the u340 (shifts drastically improved and line pressure stabilized with the MAG1 multi vehicle ATF) or the Camry shifts are pretty touchy in the 6 speed (using WS amsoil OE or DEX VI), u760, 8 speed U880 (DEX/Merc resulted in slippage, using maxlife drastically improved shift time), I've had great success using either maxlife or mag1 products throughout with no problems, those touchy shifts become much normal, uniform, consistent, it's remedied a minor shudder with the u760 in the Camry. . . As for programming, reset your shift adaptions. Drive the vehicle in town WITH some mixed driving on the highway and you'll see a huge difference, just drive normally. Or the Kia optima or Elantra with the A6MF2 6 speed automatic (automatically this is SP-IV, which is similar to Chrysler's ATF4+) I believe most of the problems we're witnessing aren't due to the fluid we deem to use, I believe more of a manufacturing issue.

Now, with amsoil OE fuel efficient transmission fluid I've noticed the shifts are very responsive and jerky (meaning it engaged too quickly) signature series is a little thicker in my findings which resulted in shifts similar to the WS kind. So I've had experiences where I was testing different fluids in different vehicles with different configurations. GM 6L50, 6T45 and that Hyundai A6MF2. Knowing the condition of the original fluid, hours, mileage and the amount of clutch material, I can factor in what fluids are doing what to the transmission. All I have to say when I've changed the fluid...The amount of oxidation was much lower with maxlife or MAG1 (the black reside left on the valve body or filter) or clutch material the magnets attract as in fact much less. WS fluid in stock form is just, well.. garbage

I've also had Blackstone labs reporting less wear using mag or maxlife or even using your run of the mill Citgo multi vehicle ATF

Now with some closing testimonials

Amsoil isn't anything impressive and will break your wallet; however the molybdenum, pao package is something else in terms of longevity which to some maybe worth the money spent, in the long run may make it a better product.

I believe Castrol ATF/CVT fluid is using a similar additive pack as amsoil. As for Valvoline, I have to say the maxlife is doing a better job than what the OE's are running. Mag1 (if you catch it on a good day, you'll get a 5 gallon bucket for $65.) It's also very good stuff and that's what i currently have in the truck.

The flush machine used was the Mahle fluid pro.

We can throw supertech dex/merc LV, which my friend uses in his Honda Accord P79A transmission. (I let him use my flush machine on it) he reports his shifts appear much more uniform, he did state his shifts were lazy at 130k, now he has over 155k with no issues, he later discovered the little filter in the back of the transmission which helped it further when he changed it.

Now in the neck of the woods of mechanical carnage, I do make my own adaptors to be able to utilize a flush machine on even CVTs of the likes of Toyota K120, Honda VTF20 or Nissans RE0Fxxx units. I remove the cooling puck and measure up with a CNC machine. Yes, with great success a flush machine can be a great tool as with any tool, it can either make or break your operation.

As for those dealing with current mechanical issues in your transmissions, did you apply the update, did you use the right fluid? was your tech fortunately competent in his process, did they replace or rebuild the transmission, refill, test drove the car, topped off as necessary? Did they replace associated line sets or coolers... There's just too many moving parts out in the field; not too many want to think outside of the box or even willing to try a product to see if they get the results they're looking for.

If you can do the diligence and pay close attention to detail, filter out malarkey. You will be successful in your repairs.

Most importantly if this resource finds you and anything I've mentioned is good use, don't hesitate to ask questions. Just an important bit, look at the spec sheets of the fluid in question on the website, look for oil analysis reports.

You'll soon realize borg Warner, Aisin, jatco/Datsun-nissian, zf, Mercedes, BMW are similar in operation, designs vary. Even CVTs are all similar.

I cannot guarantee my information to be solid as this is just my personal findings, so do as you will with this information. This may not apply to your case as I really can't dictate without having a few visuals at hand.

Toyota, easy. I can drop a valve body, apply air pressure to a given circuit and measure clutch packs in access with a feeler gauge or use a pressure gauge to get a read out of leak down pressure. GM/Ford transmissions are a similar process, Hyundai/Kia/Honda are visually similar. Hyundai, jokingly has a very similar design to the likes of the 41te, similar clutch arrangement to the 62te. Look at Hyundai and Dodge's transmission layout, they are crazily similar.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

My PPE deep pan will be here Friday. Hoping for some nice weather to get the new pan and ATF Green CC fluid installed. We’ll see if Teal is needed or not… and just a reminder, even though Teal is available, Green is what Dave recommends and runs in his vehicles that take ULV.

 

[MolaKule]

Fair enough, however, you would see some variance in the DI package if the friction modification chemistry would be different, as it's tied to the additive package in more than one way. For example, in MT fluid for manual transaxles you see lots of Calcium and Magnesium, as that's part of the friction modification chemistry. I old Valvoline MaxLife (pre-2020), Red Line D6 and AMSOIL ATL, you see identical amounts of Phosphorus, Calcium, and Boron. I've used both Red Line and AMSOIL and they both share the same firm shifting characteristics. My point: you would see a variance in the elementals, or additional elementals, if there was a variance in the friction modification chemistry of the fluids I listed. However, there is no reason for Infineum to make any changes, as they dialed it in perfectly.

I know this poster is no longer with us but there are some corrections that are needed.

The poster assumes that calcium, magnesium, and boron are the only friction modifiers and he refers back to MTF friction modifiers as if they are only one's used used in ATFs. This is not the case and is a simplistic assumption. There are friction modifier chemistry's in ATF that will not show up in a low-cost analysis because they are purely organic in nature..

I have posted this before but it bears repeating here:

"When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate. The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation. Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system. The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.

A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below: fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, dodecanes, hexadecanes, isostearic acids, N (hydroxyalkyl) alkenyl succinamic acids or a mixture of N-(hydroxyalkyl) alkenyl succinamic acid and N (hydroxyalkyl) alkenyl succinimide, and any mixtures of the above.

The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifiers are closely held secrets. With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why ATF fluids are the most additized of all vehicle fluids.

 

[KEVINK0000]

You might have drawn some conclusions prematurely. Let me shed light on the actual intricacies of this matter. Friction modification and Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) formulation are indeed the significant aspects of this discourse. Take, for example, my experience with AMSOIL ATL (blue cap). I have utilized it in multiple Hyundai transmissions and a ZF 8 Speed. Yet, the only transmission that functioned effectively was the 6-speed in my now sold 2018 Santa Fe Sport. The seemingly satisfactory operation was solely due to the modest 2.4L NA engine struggling to move a hefty SUV. Its torque was insufficient to induce a shift jerk. However, my other two vehicles, boasting 300 HP and 400 HP engines respectively, performed poorly with AMSOIL. Each shift was notably firm and clunky.

In contrast, when I replaced the fluid in the 2017 Santa Fe with a 300 HP engine, and in the 2016 RAM 1500 with Mobil 1 LV ATF HP, a fluid boasting the advanced Infineum additive package, the results were dramatic. HPL employs a comparable additive, yet their formulation integrates pricier base oils and co-bases. Consequently, the shifts were smooth and defined, devoid of any hesitation or slippage. No clunkiness or jerking in sight. AMSOIL, with its Lubrizol-supplied ATF recipe, simply didn't measure up.

Once upon a time, advocating for lower viscosities was logical. However, today's focus seems to have shifted toward a marginal fuel economy increase, aiming to achieve a minuscule quarter of a percent per truck, then multiplying this across their annual sales in the millions. This strategy undoubtedly boosts their profits, but often at the expense of the owner's vehicle reliability. The switch from LV to ULV primarily benefits the manufacturer's bottom line, neglecting the consumer's best interests.

In sum, the crux of this matter is the friction modification chemistry, overshadowing the viscosity aspect. HPL indeed manufactures some of the finest and most compatible ATF in the industry, even offering an ULV version known as "ATF Teal." However, rest assured, running ATF Green or Green CC in a 10-speed transmission should pose no issues.

Amsoil blue cap in a ZF8 in a BMWX1 (N20) and no issue at all. This was a multiple d/f which almost amounted to a flush. No recoding/relearning either. Same for a GM 6 speed in a 2011 BMW. Neither cars are light or non-powerful.

 

[Brons2]

Here's my experience with the 10R80 in the 2017 ford f150. I threw all of the misconceptions or people's hesitation out of the window and went forward using MAG1 #915 in the unit. (I ran three, 5 gallon buckets through the system, including a pan filter drop and added a transmission filter in line, Baldwin BT8316 with mounting kit and used the flush machine) Now mind you, this is a truck used in a fleet with over 115k miles. Mag1 runs a Viscosity @ 100°C cSt 7.38 value. Running a little thicker than the stock motorcraft Mercon ULV. I changed that fluid around 50k because it was being used to tow and rent. I have had no problems whatsoever, however I know it's due for another change, soon. The fluid remains red. I've noticed shudder went away, shifts are not noticeable unless you're manually shifting from the stalk. Temps are down. Usually stick between 140°-190°F. Before it used to be 198°F-220°F.

WOW, that's interesting. 7.38cst is not just a little thicker than Mercon ULV. It's two-thirds thicker. Wish we had more data points like this.