Koni Sport (Yellow) shocks proper settings

[edyvw]

The problem is that the range of aftermarket parts is limited for the 1.5L and 1.8L Lancers that are available in Europe. For example Bilstein offers only B4s for the car which are just OE replacement shock absorbers. The same goes for Monroe and KYB. They also only offer OE replacement shocks for the Lancer. The only logical option for an upgrade are the Konis and then a much more expensive option is the coilover KW Variant 2 shock absorbers, but they come at the triple price in comparison with Koni Sports.

Another upgrade I could make was a set of lowering springs, but as I occasionally drive my car on dirt roads I decided to maintain the original height and clearance.

I also don't think you can find polyurethane bushings for the EU versions of the Lancer, as for aftermarket anti-roll bars I'm not sure...

So, I maintained the original height of the BMW bcs. I use vehicles as daily driver not just track car.
Search Lancer forums. See which parts fit from EVO. B4 shocks are actually tuned 10% stiffer than regular. They will not offer performance of KONI yellow, but just saying for future reference.
These guys are Powerflex distributor for Greece. Check what bushings they can offer for Lancer1.5.
https://www.avcweber.gr/

Also, sometimes you don't need fancy solution. For example one of the best upgrades in the BMW E90 is Monroe lower shock mounts in the rear. $9 a piece!

 

[inquirer]

So, I maintained the original height of the BMW bcs. I use vehicles as daily driver not just track car.
Search Lancer forums. See which parts fit from EVO. B4 shocks are actually tuned 10% stiffer than regular. They will not offer performance of KONI yellow, but just saying for future reference.
These guys are Powerflex distributor for Greece. Check what bushings they can offer for Lancer1.5.
https://www.avcweber.gr/

Also, sometimes you don't need fancy solution. For example one of the best upgrades in the BMW E90 is Monroe lower shock mounts in the rear. $9 a piece!

The chances are that most of the parts will not fit. The Koni part codes for the shocks say "Lancer Hatchback/Saloon (CX/CY) incl. AWD, excl. EVO". I guess many parts are going to be incompatible.

Powerflex is offering parts only for the EVOs: https://www.powerflex.co.uk/products/Mitsubishi-21/1.html
If they are compatible with the rest of the cars of the Lancer range, then their catalog needs a serious update, but I guess the chances are that their catalog is correct and the parts are incompatible.

 

[edyvw]

The chances are that most of the parts will not fit. The Koni part codes for the shocks say "Lancer Hatchback/Saloon (CX/CY) incl. AWD, excl. EVO". I guess many parts are going to be incompatible.

Powerflex is offering parts only for the EVOs: https://www.powerflex.co.uk/products/Mitsubishi-21/1.html
If they are compatible with the rest of the cars of the Lancer range, then their catalog needs a serious update, but I guess the chances are that their catalog is correct and the parts are incompatible.

That is why I said search Lancer specific forums. Their catalogue will only state models intended to. M3 rear wishbones in catalog only say, well M3. But, they are perfect fit to rest of E90’s bcs. some guy decided to try it. Other parts don’t fit etc. but for example with M3 wishbones I get less weight more integrity and some camber. Now I am putting front brakes from BMW 335 F30 and rear from 135. Perfect fit! You never know what you gonna stumble upon on those forums. If you go to catalog, they will tell you nothing.

 

[inquirer]

That is why I said search Lancer specific forums. Their catalogue will only state models intended to. M3 rear wishbones in catalog only say, well M3. But, they are perfect fit to rest of E90’s bcs. some guy decided to try it. Other parts don’t fit etc. but for example with M3 wishbones I get less weight more integrity and some camber. Now I am putting front brakes from BMW 335 F30 and rear from 135. Perfect fit! You never know what you gonna stumble upon on those forums. If you go to catalog, they will tell you nothing.

Oh, OK. If that's the case... I expected for the catalogs to be more precise. After all, they are losing customers if they don't include compatible cars in the list.

 

[edyvw]

Oh, OK. If that's the case... I expected for the catalogs to be more precise. After all, they are losing customers if they don't include compatible cars in the list.

They cannot divert from OE specifications. It doesn’t work that way. Mitsubishi makes 1.5 for regular folks not someone who want to put KONI yellows etc. Aftermarket manufacturers fallow that idea and deviation from it might result in legal actions etc. If they offer let’s say wishbone from EVO on 1.5 it will be more expensive and not offer desired results to regular folks. It might be stiffer, wear out tires faster etc. What do you think how many Lancer 1.5 drivers will go for EVO parts?

 

[inquirer]

They cannot divert from OE specifications. It doesn’t work that way. Mitsubishi makes 1.5 for regular folks not someone who want to put KONI yellows etc. Aftermarket manufacturers fallow that idea and deviation from it might result in legal actions etc. If they offer let’s say wishbone from EVO on 1.5 it will be more expensive and not offer desired results to regular folks. It might be stiffer, wear out tires faster etc. What do you think how many Lancer 1.5 drivers will go for EVO parts?

Is that right? So are the KONI Yellows illegal for the 1.5L Lancer? KONI lists them on their site as a part compatible with the 1.5L Lancer and definitely they are an upgrade part, not an OE replacement part which follows the same specifications as the OE shock absorbers.

And what about so many other upgrade parts like cold air intakes, exhausts, big brake kits... All these parts are parts with increased performance and manufacturers list them in their site along the OE replacement parts they offer. I have seen some times warnings like that a part is not legal for road use in the state of California for example, but I don't think that upgrade parts are generally illegal.

 

[kr_bitog]

Of course you are again right, there is no setup that is ideal for every road and depending on the journey a different setup would perform better, but I seriously doubt that there are many people who constantly adjust their shock absorbers. I guess most people would compromise for a setup that makes them generally happy.

That is the reason why people invest on coilover with height adjustable, so they can keep tweaking for any road they want to drive it on. So to expect adjustable shock absorber with flexibility of height is just non-starter.

 

[inquirer]

That is the reason why people invest on coilover with height adjustable, so they can keep tweaking for any road they want to drive it on. So to expect adjustable shock absorber with flexibility of height is just non-starter.

Adjusting the height of a coilover is not an easy procedure though. I was looking the TEINs and you have to remove the wheels to make the adjustment. It would be great if a coilover manufacturer had adopted a system that was controlled electronically, with a mechanism similar maybe to the Citroën's hydropneumatic suspension or with whatever could work automatically.

 

[edyvw]

Is that right? So are the KONI Yellows illegal for the 1.5L Lancer? KONI lists them on their site as a part compatible with the 1.5L Lancer and definitely they are an upgrade part, not an OE replacement part which follows the same specifications as the OE shock absorbers.

And what about so many other upgrade parts like cold air intakes, exhausts, big brake kits... All these parts are parts with increased performance and manufacturers list them in their site along the OE replacement parts they offer. I have seen some times warnings like that a part is not legal for road use in the state of California for example, but I don't think that upgrade parts are generally illegal.

Yes, they will make specific part for 1.5 if they think there is market. Byt they won’t say: yes, here is shock from EVO, fits 1.5.

KONI thinks there is a market for yellow’s, good for them and you. But they won’t say: yeah EVO shock or whatever fits your car.
Do your research, stop arguing over who puts what in catalogs or you want someone to do research too for you?

 

[inquirer]

Yes, they will make specific part for 1.5 if they think there is market. Byt they won’t say: yes, here is shock from EVO, fits 1.5.

KONI thinks there is a market for yellow’s, good for them and you. But they won’t say: yeah EVO shock or whatever fits your car.
Do your research, stop arguing over who puts what in catalogs or you want someone to do research too for you?

I'm still not sure if you mean they don't make upgrade parts for legal reasons or because of low demand, but anyway it does not really matter.

 

[edyvw]

I'm still not sure if you mean they don't make upgrade parts for legal reasons or because of low demand, but anyway it does not really matter.

For example, I cannot find any upgraded part for my Sienna. It is a minivan. Demand would probably be too low. That does not mean some parts do not fit that are not intended for my particular vehicle. Those parts might fit my intentions, but it would mess up what the manufacturer intended for that model. Some people for example combine some parts from the SE version that is lower and has stiffer springs and shocks. But, manufacturers' intention is not to have those parts on a Limited version.
I am looking here on the Rock Auto. 2010 Lancer 2.0 and 2.0 Turbo have a lot of the same suspension parts. So, maybe bushings available for EVO are the same shape and size as those for 1.5.
So maybe, some parts from EVO fit your vehicle. Again, search forums, and it will take time to stumble on stuff like that.

 

[930.engineering]

If you want less understeer increase front camber. If you want to decrease roll fit stiffer ARBs.
Where I differ: You could tune your dampers on public roads. Chose empty and bumpy roads.
No fast corners required at all. Set your dampers in smaller steps so that the suspension feels
balanced and both axles feel similar. If you try to fight against you cars natural and camber-set
caused understeer by 'adjusting' your damper you'll inevitably make your suspension worse.
So it's basically fairly simple, don't let half-whisdom forum people mislead you. Take your time -
some hours at least, probably some days ideally. The hardest part is perhaps to decide to whom
you should listen. Better spend your time in the car. I'm a suspension development engineer for
more than 25 years if that underlines what I said.

Guess this backs my post up:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets7.html

CAUTION FLAG!
Do not attempt to change balance by changing the shocks, except in cases of dire emergency. Shocks do not change the amount of weight transfer, they change the speed at which certain types of weight transfer take effect. Once the car is at full roll, the shocks contribute nothing to balance, and if they are having any effect on balance during either roll-in (entry) or roll-out (exit) then they are probably maladjusted to their proper job. The only exception is a Stock class car with poor sway bar choices.

Your IMPRESSION of roll reduction might not reflect actual roll. Dampers are unable
to reduce roll in a steady-state corner. After turn in the body will have settled within
less than a second to the amount of roll given by lateral force, roll center, center of
gravity, mass, track width and effective spring rates including effective sway bar rate.
Add bump stops to this on some cars (most Minis will hit their bump stops on ANY
quick corner).
In did hundreds of measurements on track. I agree that a somewhat stiffer damping
than ideal for the spring rate almost always does feel better/faster when driving fast
corners, but in no single case the car measured quicker in a steady-state corner. It's
different in slalom I have to admit, but even in slalom the gain isn't even comparable
to appropriately altering spring rates along with the dampers accordingly.

Again, weight opinions based on the credibility of the person expressing the opinion.

Adjusting the height of a coilover is not an easy procedure though. I was looking the TEINs and you have to remove the wheels to make the adjustment. It would be great if a coilover manufacturer had adopted a system that was controlled electronically, with a mechanism similar maybe to the Citroën's hydropneumatic suspension or with whatever could work automatically.

Come on, let's stay realistic.

Btw, Tein is crap anyway. Good you went with Konis as Bilstein B6/B8 aren't avilable
for this application. Farnorthracing provides enough information why. Bilstein B6/B8
are still the go-to choice whenever available if one can't afford going Öhlins or Penske.
.

 

[inquirer]

Guess this backs my post up:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets7.html



Your IMPRESSION of roll reduction might not reflect actual roll. Dampers are unable
to reduce roll in a steady-state corner. After turn in the body will have settled within
less than a second to the amount of roll given by lateral force, roll center, center of
gravity, mass, track width and effective spring rates including effective sway bar rate.
Add bump stops to this on some cars (most Minis will hit their bump stops on ANY
quick corner).
In did hundreds of measurements on track. I agree that a somewhat stiffer damping
than ideal for the spring rate almost always does feel better/faster when driving fast
corners, but in no single case the car measured quicker in a steady-state corner. It's
different in slalom I have to admit, but even in slalom the gain isn't even comparable
to appropriately altering spring rates along with the dampers accordingly.

Again, weight opinions based on the credibility of the person expressing the opinion.

OK. Here Koni states:

If the car rolls on the rear outside suspension during corner exit, increase rebound damping force at the front inside. The front inside suspension affects the car mostly on corner exit. By adding rebound damping you will loosen the car up on corner exit.

If the car rolls on the front outside during corner entry, increase rebound damping on the rear inside suspension.

By adding rebound damping to the front on both sides equally, it will tighten the car some. By adding rebound damping to the rear on both sides equally, it will loosen the car up some.

Note that the shock absorbers do not change the amount of weight transfer, only the time it takes to transfer this weight.

Only adjust enough rebound into each shock absorber to eliminate the undesirable characteristic. Adjusting too much rebound may mask a handling problem of another sort and may even be make things worse and dangerous.

Isn't the above instructions a balance adjustment suggestion? Obviously, by just extending the time it will take for a certain amount of roll to happen, not by eliminating the roll, but still the settings affect balance for a certain amount of time.

Come on, let's stay realistic.

Btw, Tein is crap anyway. Good you went with Konis as Bilstein B6/B8 aren't avilable
for this application. Farnorthracing provides enough information why. Bilstein B6/B8
are still the go-to choice whenever available if one can't afford going Öhlins or Penske.
.

Why not? Isn't an electronically controlled height adjustable suspension possible to get designed and manufactured?

 

[930.engineering]

OK. Here Koni states:

Isn't the above instructions a balance adjustment suggestion? Obviously, by just extending the time it will take for a certain amount of roll to happen, not by eliminating the roll, but still the settings affect balance for a certain amount of time.

Koni is selling shocks/dampers, not sway bars or camber kits. Are you actually surprised they market their product as an 'all in one' solution? Their website is part of their marketing. Some adjustment might be helpful IF your car behaves neutrally in steady-state cornering (mid corner) and only suffers from minor issues on corner entry and/or exit.

Why not? Isn't an electronically controlled height adjustable suspension possible to get designed and manufactured?

How much are you willing to pay for a properly engineered and made air suspension with adaptive dampers? 4000 €/$ or 5000 €/$? If handling is your goal get a custom made suspension with 60 mm springs and Öhlins or Penske dampers.
.

 

[inquirer]

Koni is selling shocks/dampers, not sway bars or camber kits. Are you actually surprised they market their product as an 'all in one' solution? Their website is part of their marketing. Some adjustment might be helpful IF your car behaves neutrally in steady-state cornering (mid corner) and only suffers from minor issues on corner entry and/or exit.

I don't know if that's marketing. They clearly state that shock absorbers do not change the amount of weight transfer. They didn't make a false claim. I personally didn't take the article as promoting shock absorbers as an "all in one solution". But shock absorbers are part of the equation and they just give tips for their proper setup.

How much are you willing to pay for a properly engineered and made air suspension with adaptive dampers? 4000 €/$ or 5000 €/$? If handling is your goal get a custom made suspension with 60 mm springs and Öhlins or Penske dampers.
.

It's a general statement. I'm not talking for me or my car. That said very expensive suspensions are available on the market:
For example KW Coilovers Variant 5 start around 8.000 €. There will always be some people willing to buy these products and I'm sure not many people would resist a product that offers an easy way of adjustment and elctronic control would definitely be the easiest and most precise one.

 

[930.engineering]

Alternative answer: An "electronically controlled height adjustable suspension" doesn't exist because there's no market (demand) for it as the price would be prohibitive for those interested. Small Lancers aren't a target. Is it actually so hard to understand for you?
As I said repeatedly, you're lost if you aren't able to weight opinions based on the credibility of the person expressing the opinion. You need to take the words of those who have something to sell with a grain of salt.

 

[inquirer]

Alternative answer: An "electronically controlled height adjustable suspension" doesn't exist because there's no market (demand) for it as the price would be prohibitive for those interested. Small Lancers aren't a target. Is it actually so hard to understand for you?
As I said repeatedly, you're lost if you aren't able to weight opinions based on the credibility of the person expressing the opinion. You need to take the words of those who have something to sell with a grain of salt.

I just wrote in my previous post that I'm not talking for myself or my car. Of course, extremely expensive products target a limited number of customers. But keep in mind that technologies which in the past were considered exotic, they are mainstream now and from the point they become mainstream their price falls dramatically.

Suspensions with electronic damper control are available for many years. I don't see why not some manufacturer wouldn't include height at some point in the future.

 

[Jetronic]

Your IMPRESSION of roll reduction might not reflect actual roll. Dampers are unable
to reduce roll in a steady-state corner. After turn in the body will have settled within
less than a second to the amount of roll given by lateral force, roll center, center of
gravity, mass, track width and effective spring rates including effective sway bar rate.
Add bump stops to this on some cars (most Minis will hit their bump stops on ANY
quick corner).
In did hundreds of measurements on track. I agree that a somewhat stiffer damping
than ideal for the spring rate almost always does feel better/faster when driving fast
corners, but in no single case the car measured quicker in a steady-state corner. It's
different in slalom I have to admit, but even in slalom the gain isn't even comparable
to appropriately altering spring rates along with the dampers accordingly.


.

I would suspect the mini (and any other car that does this) hits the bump stops in compression do this to force the car into understeer. Would fitting a B8 shock allow for a bit more compression before hitting the stops vs a B6 or standard shock?

 

[edyvw]

I would suspect the mini (and any other car that does this) hits the bump stops in compression do this to force the car into understeer. Would fitting a B8 shock allow for a bit more compression before hitting the stops vs a B6 or standard shock?

B6 and B8 are same shock except B8 is for shorter springs. I am not sure it will offer more compression, but 930 would know better this.
One thing is for sure, shocks are just PART of the package. Buying expensive shocks and thinking that is it, is basic misunderstanding how this works.

 

[Jetronic]

the b6 and b8 are shock and bumpstop combined, the b8 sits further from the bumpstop with the same springs. Hence you can fit shorter springs