JTK
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I think someone's 30-pack just ran out.
Kohler K series oil
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Joel, i made a living selling lawn equipment and a good one!! and i wouldnt lie to you nor misdirect you!! and im not saying cub wants youre engine to fail!! but what i am saying is CUB/CASE whatever dont make an engine!!!! and you know that!!! so why on earth would you let there little book override the manufacturer that DID INDEED make the engine???????????????
Oil technology has changed over the years. I wouldn't bother with any recommendation from a couple years ago, let alone 20, 30, 40 .... years ago.
I've been using 5w30, 10w30... Mobil 1 in my small engines(lawn mowers, generators...) for almost 2.5 decades. I never did suffer from an engine failure.
You can use any quality oil that you want to use. I do recommend full synthetic and something with known quality. Castrol Syntec 0w30 or 5w40, Mobil 1 0w40, 5w40, or any of M1's HM or EP synthetics, Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, Redline, Royalpurple.... any synthetic motorcycle oil in 30 or 40 weights, or any HDEO like Rotella 5w40.
I have always and could care less about any manufacturer branded OE oil.
The most important thing is to check and top off the oil level prior to each use. And, practice some type of timely change intervals.
Its not a gigantic sump so cost of the synthetic shouldn't be an issue. If it is, I would have no problem using ANY name brand HDEO 15w40 or 10w30. The local small engine shop can keep their junk OE oil and recommendations.
I've been using 5w30, 10w30... Mobil 1 in my small engines(lawn mowers, generators...) for almost 2.5 decades. I never did suffer from an engine failure.
You can use any quality oil that you want to use. I do recommend full synthetic and something with known quality. Castrol Syntec 0w30 or 5w40, Mobil 1 0w40, 5w40, or any of M1's HM or EP synthetics, Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil, Redline, Royalpurple.... any synthetic motorcycle oil in 30 or 40 weights, or any HDEO like Rotella 5w40.
I have always and could care less about any manufacturer branded OE oil.
The most important thing is to check and top off the oil level prior to each use. And, practice some type of timely change intervals.
Its not a gigantic sump so cost of the synthetic shouldn't be an issue. If it is, I would have no problem using ANY name brand HDEO 15w40 or 10w30. The local small engine shop can keep their junk OE oil and recommendations.
I dont buy what youre calling junk dealer oil, i buy valvoline sae30, and when i buy it, its on sale $2/quart at a farmstore. and just so you know even the most modern kawasakis reccomend sae30 in mowing temps, 10w30 in colder conditions
I just checked Kohlers website, you can look at a PDF of the owners manual. They recommend SAE 30 above 32 degrees, 10w30 below 32.
look at page 4 of this link
http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/tp_1346_c_all.pdf
I have used Amsoil 10w30/SAE30, or 15w40 HDEO for years in K series Kohlers, and mine last longer than most...
I would not use regular passenger 10w30 in one, but I think using Sae 30 in sub freezing temps is not doing the engine any good. Has anyone tried to pour SAE 30 in 10 degree weather?!
look at page 4 of this link
http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/tp_1346_c_all.pdf
I have used Amsoil 10w30/SAE30, or 15w40 HDEO for years in K series Kohlers, and mine last longer than most...
I would not use regular passenger 10w30 in one, but I think using Sae 30 in sub freezing temps is not doing the engine any good. Has anyone tried to pour SAE 30 in 10 degree weather?!
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Originally Posted By: kcfx4
Joel, i made a living selling lawn equipment and a good one!! and i wouldnt lie to you nor misdirect you!! and im not saying cub wants youre engine to fail!! but what i am saying is CUB/CASE whatever dont make an engine!!!! and you know that!!! so why on earth would you let there little book override the manufacturer that DID INDEED make the engine???????????????
So selling lawn equipment makes you the expert?? Sounds like a used car salesman trash talking to me...I suppose you only use the dealer oil in you car too...
Secondly, how do you know that the engine manufacturer's RECOMMENDATION applies to every application?? To me the engine book is a guideline if the engine manufacturer doesn't know the end product its engine is to be utilized. I would bet that Case/Cub had significant input from Kohler on oil choice...you imply that Case/Cub just buy and engine a slap it in a mower chassis without any consideration for longevity, cooling, etc...[censored] them engineers!
Joel, i made a living selling lawn equipment and a good one!! and i wouldnt lie to you nor misdirect you!! and im not saying cub wants youre engine to fail!! but what i am saying is CUB/CASE whatever dont make an engine!!!! and you know that!!! so why on earth would you let there little book override the manufacturer that DID INDEED make the engine???????????????
So selling lawn equipment makes you the expert?? Sounds like a used car salesman trash talking to me...I suppose you only use the dealer oil in you car too...
Secondly, how do you know that the engine manufacturer's RECOMMENDATION applies to every application?? To me the engine book is a guideline if the engine manufacturer doesn't know the end product its engine is to be utilized. I would bet that Case/Cub had significant input from Kohler on oil choice...you imply that Case/Cub just buy and engine a slap it in a mower chassis without any consideration for longevity, cooling, etc...[censored] them engineers!
again, im not going to argue w/ you, joel and i have argued in good humor on here numerous times. Let me ask you this....you have a cubcadet w a kohler engine, who MADE the engine? so wich book would you go by? and no, i buy valvoline sae30 when its on sale $2/quart from a farmstore. And of yes mower manufactures do use "whatever" engines on equipment, heres an example, CubCadet lt1046 had only used a Kohler Courage engine, then they got a Briggs Intek cheaper, it was called a lt1046le, did their (cub) owners manual change?? NO! guy i know what i know, i dont just post whatever
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No contest between an obsolescent SAE30 and a 15w40 HDEO for OPE in most applications:
1) 15w40 flows better on start-up
2) 15w40 anti-wear add-pack will generally be better
3) 15w40 detergent and dispersant add-pack will be better and fuel dilution is one of the biggest challenges OPE oil will face
4) 15w40 offers better high-temp protection
5) When diluted with fuel, 15w40 at operating temp will be closer to a 30 weight (cSt 9.0 - 10.0) than a SAE30 (so a 15w40 offers additional insurance in extreme applications).
For most applications, SAE30 works. But for most of those applications, 15w40 works better.
1) 15w40 flows better on start-up
2) 15w40 anti-wear add-pack will generally be better
3) 15w40 detergent and dispersant add-pack will be better and fuel dilution is one of the biggest challenges OPE oil will face
4) 15w40 offers better high-temp protection
5) When diluted with fuel, 15w40 at operating temp will be closer to a 30 weight (cSt 9.0 - 10.0) than a SAE30 (so a 15w40 offers additional insurance in extreme applications).
For most applications, SAE30 works. But for most of those applications, 15w40 works better.
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
No contest between an obsolescent SAE30 and a 15w40 HDEO for OPE in most applications:
1) 15w40 flows better on start-up
Depending on the temperature, yes, but not a lot of difference in typical summer temps. Below 32F 10w30 flows better than either one and is Kohler's recommended viscosity.
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
2) 15w40 anti-wear add-pack will generally be better
Better than a HDEO SAE30 or 10w30? Why?
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
3) 15w40 detergent and dispersant add-pack will be better and fuel dilution is one of the biggest challenges OPE oil will face
Again, better than a HDEO 30 or 10w30? Based on what?
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
4) 15w40 offers better high-temp protection
Ok, but Kohler didn't specify a 40 when they could have. 15w40 may cause the engine to run hotter than it needs to.
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
5) When diluted with fuel, 15w40 at operating temp will be closer to a 30 weight (cSt 9.0 - 10.0) than a SAE30 (so a 15w40 offers additional insurance in extreme applications).
Ok, but Kohler's recommended OCI is 25 hours, not a lot of time for a ton of fuel dilution.
No contest between an obsolescent SAE30 and a 15w40 HDEO for OPE in most applications:
1) 15w40 flows better on start-up
Depending on the temperature, yes, but not a lot of difference in typical summer temps. Below 32F 10w30 flows better than either one and is Kohler's recommended viscosity.
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
2) 15w40 anti-wear add-pack will generally be better
Better than a HDEO SAE30 or 10w30? Why?
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
3) 15w40 detergent and dispersant add-pack will be better and fuel dilution is one of the biggest challenges OPE oil will face
Again, better than a HDEO 30 or 10w30? Based on what?
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
4) 15w40 offers better high-temp protection
Ok, but Kohler didn't specify a 40 when they could have. 15w40 may cause the engine to run hotter than it needs to.
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
5) When diluted with fuel, 15w40 at operating temp will be closer to a 30 weight (cSt 9.0 - 10.0) than a SAE30 (so a 15w40 offers additional insurance in extreme applications).
Ok, but Kohler's recommended OCI is 25 hours, not a lot of time for a ton of fuel dilution.
"my info sae30 is txt book, your 15w40 is opinion"
The manufacturers' recommendations are notoriously out of date. I had long rants about Briggs & Stratton on this board years ago regarding their foolish recommendation of synthetic 5w30 or mineral 10w30 ... as if there was a massive difference between the two ... when we know there is sometimes just a slight difference (if any). And after recommending SAE30 across the board for decades, they have finally figured out that starting one of their engines using SAE30 in sub-freezing conditions can actually damage the unit. Nice that you've joined the party guys ... at least a decade late.
You are correct. Kohler manual for the motor in a non-defined application in non-defined operating conditions says to use SAE30 ... but that is merely a generic guideline which can (easily) be improved upon.
My info was not merely opinion ... much of it having to do with pour points and add-packs is fact that can be documented by comparing VOA lab tests.
flatlandtacoma, I was assuming a PCMO SAE30 above ... as the manual does not specifically say to use a HDEO SAE30, or does it?
As for pour points, I'll take all the help I can get. I've been out there on the frosty mornings trying to start an old wood splitter, tractor or snowblower with SAE30 in the crankcase. 15w40 is definitely an improvement ... but yes, in applications that you know will involve colder temps, and in engines that are not notoriously oil-burners, 10w30 may be a better choice. I didn't say it wasn't.
Back to SAE30 vs 15w40 HDEO, I'll still take the 15w40 on cool mornings as many people believe that most wear occurs at start-up and every bit of additional flowability is an advantage.
Good point on the fuel dilution. For people that religiously change their OPE's oil every 25 hours, there is not much of an advantage. However, for people that go longer (sometimes to the point of neglect) the 15w40 HDEO is added insurance and the superior choice.
Any evidence that a 15w40 makes any OPE run hotter? The theory is valid ... but totally unsupported as far as I know.
The manufacturers' recommendations are notoriously out of date. I had long rants about Briggs & Stratton on this board years ago regarding their foolish recommendation of synthetic 5w30 or mineral 10w30 ... as if there was a massive difference between the two ... when we know there is sometimes just a slight difference (if any). And after recommending SAE30 across the board for decades, they have finally figured out that starting one of their engines using SAE30 in sub-freezing conditions can actually damage the unit. Nice that you've joined the party guys ... at least a decade late.
You are correct. Kohler manual for the motor in a non-defined application in non-defined operating conditions says to use SAE30 ... but that is merely a generic guideline which can (easily) be improved upon.
My info was not merely opinion ... much of it having to do with pour points and add-packs is fact that can be documented by comparing VOA lab tests.
flatlandtacoma, I was assuming a PCMO SAE30 above ... as the manual does not specifically say to use a HDEO SAE30, or does it?
As for pour points, I'll take all the help I can get. I've been out there on the frosty mornings trying to start an old wood splitter, tractor or snowblower with SAE30 in the crankcase. 15w40 is definitely an improvement ... but yes, in applications that you know will involve colder temps, and in engines that are not notoriously oil-burners, 10w30 may be a better choice. I didn't say it wasn't.
Back to SAE30 vs 15w40 HDEO, I'll still take the 15w40 on cool mornings as many people believe that most wear occurs at start-up and every bit of additional flowability is an advantage.
Good point on the fuel dilution. For people that religiously change their OPE's oil every 25 hours, there is not much of an advantage. However, for people that go longer (sometimes to the point of neglect) the 15w40 HDEO is added insurance and the superior choice.
Any evidence that a 15w40 makes any OPE run hotter? The theory is valid ... but totally unsupported as far as I know.
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
And after recommending SAE30 across the board for decades, they have finally figured out that starting one of their engines using SAE30 in sub-freezing conditions can actually damage the unit. Nice that you've joined the party guys ... at least a decade late.
I don't believe this is true? The oldest briggs engine manual I have handy here is 20 years old, and it recommends 10w30 ,5w30, or 5w20 below 32F. But I've seen much older manuals that recommended the same, lighter oils that were available at the time of printing in freezing temperatures.
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flatlandtacoma, I was assuming a PCMO SAE30 above ... as the manual does not specifically say to use a HDEO SAE30, or does it?
No, it doesn't. But I was pointing out that many of the 'advantages' you cited for a HDEO are available without ignoring Kohler's recommended operating viscosity.
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Any evidence that a 15w40 makes any OPE run hotter? The theory is valid ... but totally unsupported as far as I know.
No, I don't have an oil temperature gauge on any of my OPE. There have been anecdotes posted on here about cars and trucks with water cooled engines running warmer with heavier oil. I would imagine that an air cooled engine would tend to even more so.
And after recommending SAE30 across the board for decades, they have finally figured out that starting one of their engines using SAE30 in sub-freezing conditions can actually damage the unit. Nice that you've joined the party guys ... at least a decade late.
I don't believe this is true? The oldest briggs engine manual I have handy here is 20 years old, and it recommends 10w30 ,5w30, or 5w20 below 32F. But I've seen much older manuals that recommended the same, lighter oils that were available at the time of printing in freezing temperatures.
Quote:
flatlandtacoma, I was assuming a PCMO SAE30 above ... as the manual does not specifically say to use a HDEO SAE30, or does it?
No, it doesn't. But I was pointing out that many of the 'advantages' you cited for a HDEO are available without ignoring Kohler's recommended operating viscosity.
Quote:
Any evidence that a 15w40 makes any OPE run hotter? The theory is valid ... but totally unsupported as far as I know.
No, I don't have an oil temperature gauge on any of my OPE. There have been anecdotes posted on here about cars and trucks with water cooled engines running warmer with heavier oil. I would imagine that an air cooled engine would tend to even more so.
Yes, point taken about the HDEO add-pack being available in a straight 30. My sorta counterpoint is that most SAE30s sold have a PCMO add-pack ... and it is usually a generation or two behind the latest multi-weights.
As for B&S manuals, I had documentation (pages from manuals) that show SAE30 being recommended across the board ... not sure where that is now. My point was, when they (finally) updated their manuals, they made some incorrect assumptions about "synthetic" vs. "conventional" 5w30s and 10w30s that showed their naivete regarding oils and lubrication.
Therefore, while I use manufacturers recommendation(s) as a general guideline or starting point, I do not treat their word as gospel.
As for overheating of OPE with 15w40, the potential exists. However it's not likely with just a one grade upgrade and I'd deal with that only if I saw some signs of it (bogging, etc ...).
As for B&S manuals, I had documentation (pages from manuals) that show SAE30 being recommended across the board ... not sure where that is now. My point was, when they (finally) updated their manuals, they made some incorrect assumptions about "synthetic" vs. "conventional" 5w30s and 10w30s that showed their naivete regarding oils and lubrication.
Therefore, while I use manufacturers recommendation(s) as a general guideline or starting point, I do not treat their word as gospel.
As for overheating of OPE with 15w40, the potential exists. However it's not likely with just a one grade upgrade and I'd deal with that only if I saw some signs of it (bogging, etc ...).
I'm having trouble getting my head around the "heavier oil causing higher operating temperatures"???
If such was the case, why would Harley Davidson riders recommend 20W50 type lubricants to help manage heat? If heavier oils cause more heat, shouldn't the HD crowd be going the other way?
If such was the case, why would Harley Davidson riders recommend 20W50 type lubricants to help manage heat? If heavier oils cause more heat, shouldn't the HD crowd be going the other way?
boraticus, it has been documented (by MolaKule for one) that heavier oil in some OPE causes excessive drag which creates more heat ... to the point that engine will bog down and otherwise run poorly.
I think the Harley Davidson recommendation recognizes that their engines tend to run hot and the 20W-50 recommendation is so the engine is protected while running hot. It's not the same cause-and-effect.
One of the tests MolaKule ran showed the engine running on Schaeffer's 15w40 synthetic blend to be performing the best of the bunch. The thread is so old now (almost 10 years ago), I'm not sure a search will find it.
I think the Harley Davidson recommendation recognizes that their engines tend to run hot and the 20W-50 recommendation is so the engine is protected while running hot. It's not the same cause-and-effect.
One of the tests MolaKule ran showed the engine running on Schaeffer's 15w40 synthetic blend to be performing the best of the bunch. The thread is so old now (almost 10 years ago), I'm not sure a search will find it.
Thanks for the info but it still "does not compute".
If heavier oil causes drag and creates heat in one internal combustion engine, wouldn't it also do it in others?
I'm not challenging what people are saying about this topic but I'm not understanding how the physics of drag generated heat caused by a heavier oil is possible in one engine yet prescribed to deal with excessive heat in another. It just seems counter-intuitive.
I'd have to see some hard scientific data to help me understand that.
If heavier oil causes drag and creates heat in one internal combustion engine, wouldn't it also do it in others?
I'm not challenging what people are saying about this topic but I'm not understanding how the physics of drag generated heat caused by a heavier oil is possible in one engine yet prescribed to deal with excessive heat in another. It just seems counter-intuitive.
I'd have to see some hard scientific data to help me understand that.
went out this morning looked at my 3yr ol kaw vtwin dipstick, it noted 2 grades sae30 or 10w30, again its a 3yr ol motor, also i started it 18f outside, sae30 in the sump, oil light stayed on about 3-4 secs, just as it does in the summer months
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Can someone please comment on the following:
Regarding easier flow of 15w40 vs. SAE 30 at cold temperatures - I think this may, or may not be true. You can't tell just from the SAE grades on the oil. For the 15w40 oil, it has a viscosity of SAE 40 at 210 degrees F, and at zero degrees F, it has the viscosity in the range of an SAE 15.
For a single-weight rated oil, like SAE 30, it has the viscosity of an SAE 30 at 210 degrees F, but its viscosity at zero degrees F is undefined/unrated. That means it is possible an SAE 30 may flow as well as an SAE 15 at zero degrees, we can't tell unless the actual oil involved is measured at that temperature. As evidence to support this idea, consider a couple of the few SAE 30 rated synthetic oils that are available. They actually come out at about the weight of an SAE 10 oil at zero degrees F without the use of pour point depressants or viscosity index improvers.
So, I am not convinced it is possible to make the blanket statement that a 15w40 will flow better than a straight-weight SAE 30. It may, or may not be true, depending on the properties of the actual SAE 30 used. Comments?
Regarding easier flow of 15w40 vs. SAE 30 at cold temperatures - I think this may, or may not be true. You can't tell just from the SAE grades on the oil. For the 15w40 oil, it has a viscosity of SAE 40 at 210 degrees F, and at zero degrees F, it has the viscosity in the range of an SAE 15.
For a single-weight rated oil, like SAE 30, it has the viscosity of an SAE 30 at 210 degrees F, but its viscosity at zero degrees F is undefined/unrated. That means it is possible an SAE 30 may flow as well as an SAE 15 at zero degrees, we can't tell unless the actual oil involved is measured at that temperature. As evidence to support this idea, consider a couple of the few SAE 30 rated synthetic oils that are available. They actually come out at about the weight of an SAE 10 oil at zero degrees F without the use of pour point depressants or viscosity index improvers.
So, I am not convinced it is possible to make the blanket statement that a 15w40 will flow better than a straight-weight SAE 30. It may, or may not be true, depending on the properties of the actual SAE 30 used. Comments?
Im not convinced that 15w40 flows btr on start up, not even in the winter, thats why i noted it took the same amount of time to start my sae30 lubed engine for the oil light to go out this morning @ 18f as it does on a 100f july day, if anything i say sae30 stays in grade longer than 15w40, wich probably sparking another dabate. Granted in a sno blower, i would probably opt for 10w30, but in general, i stick to a straight 30, as i have for yrs, and never ever a oil related issue
JTK
$100 Site Donor 2025
Originally Posted By: btanchors
So, I am not convinced it is possible to make the blanket statement that a 15w40 will flow better than a straight-weight SAE 30. It may, or may not be true, depending on the properties of the actual SAE 30 used. Comments?
As far as I know, you are correct with this statement. I've based my 'cold flow' ability observations on the fact that you can barely pour SAE30 out of the bottle at temps well below freezing. The 15w40's I've had are still thick under these conditions, but do pour easier than the SAE30. The only OPE I run in cold temps is my snowblower. It gets what ever 5w30 I have on hand.
I think most of us that like 15w40, use it for the excellent properties Bror stated some posts above.
Joel
So, I am not convinced it is possible to make the blanket statement that a 15w40 will flow better than a straight-weight SAE 30. It may, or may not be true, depending on the properties of the actual SAE 30 used. Comments?
As far as I know, you are correct with this statement. I've based my 'cold flow' ability observations on the fact that you can barely pour SAE30 out of the bottle at temps well below freezing. The 15w40's I've had are still thick under these conditions, but do pour easier than the SAE30. The only OPE I run in cold temps is my snowblower. It gets what ever 5w30 I have on hand.
I think most of us that like 15w40, use it for the excellent properties Bror stated some posts above.
Joel
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