Kohler K series oil

[Bror Jace]

boraticus, I think smaller engines with less power are more susceptible to overheating from heavier oil as a greater percentage of their meager output is eaten up overcoming the drag of their lubrication system … others could probably answer this better. There are probably a number of factors involved with this phenomenon.

To everyone else, I understand the concern about pour points. Since this has come up before, I attempted to put together a list of various brands and the pour points for their SAE30 vs. 15W-40 but the data I found was terribly inconsistent. Some manufacturers had identical pour points across a whole range of viscosities, others had wild swings of 40 or 50 degrees between 30 and 15W-40 ... which I found impossible to believe.

Looking again just now, a reasonably consistent source I found was Valvoline:

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/afpud.pdf

The 15W-40 has a 6C degree advantage (10F) over SAE30. That’s not a world of difference … but it is significant.
I must stipulate though, that I stated I had used 15W-40 in a snowblower above. That was correct … but it was a unit that was stored in a heated house garage. Another snowblower, stored in an unheated, detached garage used either synthetic 5W-40 or 10W-30 (I’m not sure as it was a handful of years ago). I would not use a 15W-40 in a unit that would regularly be started and run in temps 25F and less.

 

[kcfx4]

put olive oil in it!!! the point is theyve ran on what theyve asked for for years and thats sae30

 

[kcfx4]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I would not run multigrade in a tractor unless you absolutely have to due to winter use.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
I'm having trouble getting my head around the "heavier oil causing higher operating temperatures"???


I, too, have wondered if using "too heavy" an oil in an OPE engine actually causes it to run hotter, thus negating the effects of using said thicker oil.

On numerous occasions, I have read or been told that heavier oils in gear boxes causes them to run hotter. I.E., John Deere told me not to run 140 wt. oil in their brush mowers specifying 90 wt. for this reason. Of course, acknowledging that a gear box is different than an engine.

I would like to learn more about this. Bror, I "think" I have read here that pour point should be "tossed out the window" when comparing cold flow characteristics. I have asked numerous times for someone here to teach me how to discern cold flow differences (reading specs.), with no success.

 

[deeter16317]

I took before and after IR readings on my two current Kohlers, the before running the "correct" SAE30 and then running 15w40 rotella...there was no notable difference after mowing almost 2 acres.

I have ran, and will continue to run, 15w40 HDEO...or 5w40 HDEO.

 

[Bror Jace]

Guys, I thought it was conventional wisdom that running a heavier oil can cause an engine to overheat, especially OPE. Makes sense to me. But if you don't accept it, that's fine but maybe you'll have to search independently to confirm or disprove it. I simply don't have a definitive source handy.

kcfx4: "put olive oil in it!!!"

Olive oil. Check. Good luck with that. I'm stickin' with 15W-40 HDEOs for most OPE applications.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
The manufacturers' recommendations are notoriously out of date. I had long rants about Briggs & Stratton on this board years ago regarding their foolish recommendation of synthetic 5W-30 or mineral 10W-30 ... as if there was a massive difference between the two ... when we know there is sometimes just a slight difference (if any). And after recommending SAE30 across the board for decades, they have finally figured out that starting one of their engines using SAE30 in sub-freezing conditions can actually damage the unit. Nice that you've joined the party guys ... at least a decade late.

I'm still having trouble finding a B&S recommendation for SAE 30 in sub-freezing conditions. I found a B&S repair handbook that has to be 50+ years old. On page 4:
Quote:
CORRECT LUBRICATION IS IMPORTANT
We recommend the use of MobilOil "Arctic" or other high grade oil having a low carbon residue and a body not heavier than S.A.E. No. 20 for operating the engine in temperatures of 32º and above. For temperatures below 32º, use MobilOil "Arctic Special" or other high grade oil not heavier than S.A.E. No. 10 W.
It also mentions thick oil having less cooling effect when they prescribe frequent oil changes.

 

[kcfx4]

Not to mention you wont find 15w40 noted either

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: kcfx4
Not to mention you wont find 15w40 noted either
Please stop. We are trying to have an intelligent conversation.

 

[kcfx4]

um, ive been much involved in this conversation...

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: kcfx4
Not to mention you wont find 15w40 noted either
Okay, if you want to contribute intelligently to the conversation, here is a Briggs manual from 1976:
http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/default.aspx?filename=lrvvA-wU7eL7hAxB91ObQ
that recommends 10w40 above 40ºF if SAE 30 is not available. Above 40ºF I would say 10w40 and 15w40 are pretty interchangeable.
Quote:
Summer (above 40ºF) Use SAE 30. If not available, use SAE 10W-30 or SAE 10W-40.
Winter (below 40ºF) Use SAE 5W-20 or SAE 5W-30. If not available, use SAE 10W or SAE 10W-30.

 

[kcfx4]

first off the book youre referencing is from the 70's, and youll see that not much has changed, and youre also noting "if" sae30 is unavalible....it is most places i shop. and your "assuming" 15w40hdeo and 10w40 are almost one in the same. if you go on to read in the boat section, a person disagreeing here is also reccomending 15w40 hdeo on there as if to him its a "miracle oil". I too was on the boat forum and i reccomended 10w30 so im not worshiping a weight nor an oil brand. my info is factual ie it can be found in books/even on dipsticks for that matter, and again 10w30 in cold climate, sae30 in warm. my car recs 5w20, so im sure 15w40 is a "great" choice, if it were a one size fits all world, wed only have one oil

 

[flatlandtacoma]

I hope your 30 pack loves you back.

The question on the table is whether B&S (or any other manufacturer ) ever recommended SAE 30 below 32F. I've looked at a lot of manuals from throughout the years and haven't ever seen that recommendation.

I have a graph I can maybe post when I get home comparing the viscosity of SAE 30 and 15w40. At 32F they are equal viscosity. SAE 30 is lower at all higher temperatures. Below 32F the recommended viscosities (10W30, 10W, 5W20, 5W30) all have better flow characteristics than 15W40.

 

[kcfx4]

you said yourself that 5w30 (wich i do believe briggs is specn now) and 10w30 have better flow characteristcs, so why the HYPE on 15w40? the book says what it says.....run amsoil 5w30 or any other and UP your consumption $$$ and oil! and as i pointed out, my Kaw powered JD's oil light went out as quickly in cold temps as it does in 100 degree weather, with that said, unless youre hand cranking a farmall, whats the point?? and im feeling good, drank 5quarts edge, didnt waste a single quart on my sm engines

 

[kcfx4]

Originally Posted By: nomochevys
cub 106 with a K series engine.
Can you run 10w 30 or 5w 30 or is it only strait 30w oil?

now, this is my last post on this and im answering the original post mind you!! that engine requires 10w30 in cold climate, sae30 in mowing conditions!! Thats the answer! now i dont doubt sae60 would work in hot climates, but thats a theory!! just as 15w40 is! i ran a sm engine dealer for yrs! and we were a big ECHO seller, the owner was a cheapskate, he had a case of atf and no car for it, he mixed that in his gas rather than spending a few $ on oil for it, as he figured he payed for it one way or another, did it work? yes it did, should i reccomend that? NO and thats the point!

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Forget it. No chance for an intelligent discussion on BITOG anymore with colonel 30 pack around.

 

[Bror Jace]

flatlandtacoma, I wrote those previous posts from memory about a discussion that is at least a few years old … maybe several years old. Sorry I can’t find the document I was referencing at the time. I’m not sure what it was, might have been an on-line B&S manual.

My point was to criticize B&S’s naivete in their updated recommendations: a “conventional” 10W-30 or a “synthetic” 5W-30 for low temps … when we know there might not be much difference between the two. Imagine a Group II+ labeled as “conventional” … and a Group III labeled as “synthetic”. And, of course, there is PCMO’s tendency to shear down a bit for economy reasons even in water-cooled applications. In an air-cooled engine, this shearing could be real trouble … and B&S hinted at this saying that it was important to watch oil consumption with the multi-vis oils … seemingly hedging their bets that their recommendation had flaws.

kcfx4, Most marine oils happen to be 15W-40. That’s an industry standard, not my doing. It just so happens that the same weight also works well in OPE that is worked hard. No miracles involved.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
flatlandtacoma, I wrote those previous posts from memory about a discussion that is at least a few years old … maybe several years old. Sorry I can’t find the document I was referencing at the time. I’m not sure what it was, might have been an on-line B&S manual.

My point was to criticize B&S’s naivete in their updated recommendations: a “conventional” 10W-30 or a “synthetic” 5W-30 for low temps … when we know there might not be much difference between the two. Imagine a Group II+ labeled as “conventional” … and a Group III labeled as “synthetic”. And, of course, there is PCMO’s tendency to shear down a bit for economy reasons even in water-cooled applications. In an air-cooled engine, this shearing could be real trouble … and B&S hinted at this saying that it was important to watch oil consumption with the multi-vis oils … seemingly hedging their bets that their recommendation had flaws.
Sorry, I'm not following you re: the flaws. AFAIK, B&S current recommendation is SAE 30 preferred above 40F, 5w30 synthetic or 10w30 below 40F, watch oil consumption if using a multivis at high temperatures? My interpretation is they want a shear stable 30 (thus the straight weight or synthetic recommendation.) Oversimplified recommendation? Yes. Have conventional oils and VIIs improved since they made the recommendation? Yes. But flawed? Fill me in please.

 

[Bror Jace]

The flaw is that many XW-30 PCMOs will shear rapidly under the stress that an air-cooled engine sees. As they shear and thin out, they tend to get past the rings and are consumed. If the engine runs out of oil, it will likely seize (I saw this happen to a brand new water pump many years ago).

Conventional or synthetic in a mass-market PCMO is not likely to make a difference.

 

[doitmyself]

Here's B&S's current oil recs: http://eu-en.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=2800 It is not easy to digest, as it implies 5w30 synthetic is BEST, while the others are merely GOOD. We have discussed this years ago.

I think that Bror feels there is little difference between dino 10w30 and syn. 5W30, while others, including maybe B&S, imply that synthetic overcomes the problem of shearing/consumption that is "possible above 80F" with the dino 10W30. Correct?

I read over at lawnsite.com of many pros racking up thousands of OPE hours with 15w40, so I know it works. Many use 30 weights also, especially with the Kohler Commands.

My question is, why don't any of the big boys (kohler, kawasaki, or the companies they supply...Exmark, etc.) recommend 5w or 15w40 oils. Maybe I will write them. Something doesn't add up here. IN fact, Exmark just recently started marketing their "own" 30w/10w30 synthetic oil similar to Amsoils ASE. They chose not to make it a 40wt.