Kia manual allows 5w20 and 5w30 but not 0w20?

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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Whammo
I have a 2012 Kia optima and the Manual allows 5w20, 5w30 or 10w30 but doesn't say anything about 0w20 or 0w30. Is there any reason these wouldn't be suitable for this 2.4 L GDI engine?
0W-20 has a thinner base oil than 5W-20, in fact often a lot thinner. In the valvetrain, timing chain, and parts of the rings and liners, the base oil is all that matters and the viscosity modifiers that thicken the oil have no effect. A 5W-20 can be formulated with very little viscosity modifier, sometimes none at all. 5W-20 is often the thickest oil as far as the base oil is concerned, as 5W-30 needs to use thinner base oils to meet the MRV specs, as more viscosity modifiers make the MRV worse. So, for many applications except those demand thick oils (HTHSV = 3.5 cP or higher), 5W-20 is the sweet spot for protection against wear, surpassing both 0W-20 and 5W-30. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...y-hthsv-friction-and-wear-state-of-the-a https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...erature-full-shear-viscosity#Post5133467
*If true , then why did Hyundai issue the TSB stating more or less - if you don't want to have your engine grenade then you should move up an oil grade ?
 
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Whammo
What is it in 0w oil that would possibly ruin the engine that 5w doesn't have?
From Mola's write up.. it's best to read the full article to be certain I'm not taking something out of context but I pulled this out for quick response. So if I'm understanding Mola correctly, a 5w30 is going to rely more on quality base stock and AW additives than say a 0w30/40 which would employ more VII's??? "The higher the spread between the bottom number and the top number the more VI improvers are relied on for maintaining the viscosity. Better to keep the numbers closer. All base oils film strength will shear under stress or pressure. The real way to help prevent wear is to maintain higher levels of antiwear additives This in conjunction with a good base stock which resists breakdown to high heat" https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/
Right. And I recall a thread on here (couldn't find it) that said when the number before the "W" was larger, that timing chain wear was lessened.
 

Whammo

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What I'm wondering is how Kia believes 5w is better than 0w where I live when it gets down to -30F in January.
 
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* I read the link provided - now wondering in my Hyundai 2.4L : Do I stay with 5W30 , drop down to 5W20 , jump up to 10W30 or mix 5W20 / 30 together 50-50 for the lowest bearing wear (i.e. short OCI's under 5K miles) ?
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Whammo
I have a 2012 Kia optima and the Manual allows 5w20, 5w30 or 10w30 but doesn't say anything about 0w20 or 0w30. Is there any reason these wouldn't be suitable for this 2.4 L GDI engine?
0W-20 has a thinner base oil than 5W-20, in fact often a lot thinner. In the valvetrain, timing chain, and parts of the rings and liners, the base oil is all that matters and the viscosity modifiers that thicken the oil have no effect. A 5W-20 can be formulated with very little viscosity modifier, sometimes none at all. 5W-20 is often the thickest oil as far as the base oil is concerned, as 5W-30 needs to use thinner base oils to meet the MRV specs, as more viscosity modifiers make the MRV worse. So, for many applications except those demand thick oils (HTHSV = 3.5 cP or higher), 5W-20 is the sweet spot for protection against wear, surpassing both 0W-20 and 5W-30. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...y-hthsv-friction-and-wear-state-of-the-a https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...erature-full-shear-viscosity#Post5133467
*If true , then why did Hyundai issue the TSB stating more or less - if you don't want to have your engine grenade then you should move up an oil grade ?
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
So even though the 5w30 I'm using has a higher operating vis than a 5w20, the 5/20 is going to provide better wear protection at operating temp?? How does a 5w30's AW pkg factor into this, if at all?? Does (higher than acceptable) fuel/moisture in the oil shift the (wear protection) advantage to the higher multi vis?
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Everything I've read from reliable sources indicate that engine wear is inversely proportional to HTHS viscosity. For Mobil 1 5W20, HTHS viscosity is 2.75 versus 3.1 for 5W30. Thus, 5W30 would provide better protection (less wear). You're saying the opposite. Needless to say, I'm confused...
Viscosity depends on the shear rate. In other words there is a "viscosity spectrum" as a function of the shear rate. HTHS viscosity is measured at 1,000,000 1/second sher rate. KV is measured at low shear rates. The valvetrain, rings, and liners experience much higher shear rates at which the KV and HTHS are not the relevant viscosities but the base-oil viscosity at high temperature is the relevant viscosity. AW package doesn't vary with the viscosity grade normally. Increasing HTHS viscosity does not necessarily reduce the wear. I posted a study that shows after the minimum HTHS viscosity requirement, the wear increases with the HTHS viscosity gradually. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru.../moft-hthsv-vii-and-wear-its-complicated I was explaining the difference between 0w-20 and 5W-20 in terms of the whole viscosity spectrum as a function of the shear rate applicable to different parts of the engine.
 
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Originally Posted by Whammo
What I'm wondering is how Kia believes 5w is better than 0w where I live when it gets down to -30F in January.
My guess is that the 5w is going to have a higher HTHS (3.0+) than the 0w (between 2.5~3.0) and be more shear stable than a 0w that is relying "heavily" (probably not the best word) on viscosity modifiers??? I guess the polymers in the viscosity modifiers can be broken beyond repair and this in turn lowers the oils viscosity at high temps and in turn it's film strength/thickness??? I'm just as confused as many here because I always thought a higher viscosity, not lower, provided better wear protection. Maybe that was only true back when I used a monograde SAE 30 and a different set of rules apply to these multi vis oils..dunno?? (I've been trying to understand this stuff over the last couple of days and it's not easy to say the least. So by no means quote me on it. It's just my best stab at it)
 
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by bernau
I have an Elantra equivalent avante, the manual specs all the way to 20w 50 but when I called the service center, they said, only 5w-30 helix, use anything else, engine damaged, we will void your warranty.
I'd like to know how would they ever prove you used the wrong oil? Obviously, a paper trail would prove it. But if you faked the paper trail.....there is no way they could prove it without extensive testing of the used oil. I'm not buying it.
They wouldn't be the first dealer to pull a fluid sample and send it out for full testing....heck, the results of comprehensive testing might even show that you should cut back on the fast food!...‚
Can you post a link to some of these cases? I hear about them all the time but haven't seent one.
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*If true , then why did Hyundai issue the TSB stating more or less - if you don't want to have your engine grenade then you should move up an oil grade ?
That Canadian TSB only applies to some of their high-power-density engines and they suggested it could be better to use an oil with a higher HTHS viscosity in them. I have no problem with that if an OEM believes a higher HTHS viscosity may be needed in extreme high-speed driving conditions in order to protect the con-rod (big-end) bearings against failure. However, Hyundai/Kia oil recommendations are all over the place as usual and I would take anything recommend with a grain of salt. It's also odd to recommend a 5W-40 in a GDI engine, given that these tend to be full-SAPS (ACEA A3/B4) oils and they accelerate intake-valve-deposit (IVD) accumulation greatly. A better recommendation would be an ACEA C3 mid-SAPS oil, which still has an HTHS viscosity of 3.5 cP or greater despite usually coming at a 5W-30 or 0W-30 viscosity grade.
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
There has been a scientific study or two posted here regarding PAO content and TGDI / GDI engines. The study(ies) citied issue with Group-4. I suppose Kia/Hyundai could analyze the used oil for PAO content, then determine if it was indeed 0W20.
Nah, that study said something like Group I is better for LSPI prevention and PAO and Group III are worse, with PAO being slightly worse than Group III. It really doesn't mean anything, as the main factor in LSPI is the detergent chemistry, which is followed by the additive chemistry. No one is going to downgrade to inferior base oils in order to fight LSPI. However, it also said Group V (ester [POE], alkylated naphthalene [AN], etc.) is a lot better than anything else. https://www.infineuminsight.com/articles/passenger-cars/lspi-and-lubricant-auto-ignition/
 
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Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
They wouldn't be the first dealer to pull a fluid sample and send it out for full testing....heck, the results of comprehensive testing might even show that you should cut back on the fast food!...‚
Can you post a link to some of these cases? I hear about them all the time but haven't seent one.
I'm not going to scour the internet for court cases but a quick search using my Google machine produced several results were people were having their warranty claim denied unless they agreed to turn over their car to for engine tear down👇 this is just one example I found online. Link Here Since the vehicle mfg doesn't warranty damage caused by non OE fluids like oil (that's stated in the "exclusions" section), you may wish to read the warranty language from oil mfgs like Mobil or Amsoil (it's on their respective website), they specifically state that the mfg reserves the right to test a sample of the oil (at no expense to you) to process a claim. I'm assuming this is to determine if you ran it too long or added an oil additive that would change the oils formula and thereby invalidate the oils warranty - that's something that was news to me; using an oil additive can void the oil warranty. My suspicion is the vehicle mfg could also use that as the basis for a warranty denial?? The oil mfgs warranty goes on to state that failure to preserve a sample is grounds for denial of a warranty claim. So while I would concede enforcement of these onerous requirements are probably not all to common (something tells me simply dropping the oil pan or popping the valve covers to reveal sludge/varnish will be reason good enough to deny a claim) mfgs of oil and vehicles can, at their discretion, require they be done to determine maintenance compliance and in turn the validity of a warranty claim. *in my owners warranty coverage limits and exclusions manual, it specifically states that the mfg reserves the right to inspect the vehicle and maintenance records/receipts and that I am required to present the vehicle and records upon request. Failure to do so may be grounds for denial. It goes on to say that failure to produce maintenance records may not in and of itself be grounds for denial but lacking records an inspection of the vehicle (and I'm assuming the fluids contained therein) would be required to determine warranty claim.
 
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So the answer is no, you don't know of an example where a dealer pulled a sample and sent it out for "full testing"—whatever that means. The topic of this thread is 0w-20 oil vs 5w-20 oil. Do you think the dealer is going to pull a sample and try to prove the difference between these two grades of oil? After xxx miles, and intermingled with residues of previous oils used. It's not going to happen. The example you gave is a case where Kia clearly believes the oil was not changed at all—and the fault lies with the crooked oil change station. They're probably right.
 
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Originally Posted by BillyE
So the answer is no, you don't know of an example where a dealer pulled a sample and sent it out for "full testing"—whatever that means.
And I personally don't have proof of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe but I'm pretty certain it's happened (-elsewhere). That said, you missed the forest looking for the tree...the point is both oil and engine mfgs reserve the right to collect and test fluids, that much is undeniable. Is it a common practice, probably not as I conceded.. simply because there are better and faster ways to determine if lack of maintenance or use of unapproved fluids were/was the cause of damage. However, if they denied your claim and you wanted to arbitrate the matter of your expensive engine..I would not be surprised if a fluid sample was taken for analysis if cursory evidence supported taking that step (by the mfg) in support of the claim denial. In fact I'm fairly certain it's been done, even more than once, over the decades of vehicle manufacturing and limited warranties. And because parties to a arbitration don't typically take out full page ads announcing the outcome (likely due to privacy/non-disclosure agreement), I'd imagine any search online to find one is going to be fruitless at worst, painstakingly long at best. And this forum and this discussion is simply not worth an evenings of my time. Btw, that was just one example dude..if you do a search just on BITOG alone, you'll find posts made by person's claiming to be ASE techs detailing how a warranty claim was denied just because excessive sludge was evidenced. (an indication of oil degradation possibly due to not adhering to the prescribed drain interval/or using a non spec fluid)
 
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Mad Hatter— Nobody is talking about sludge. The topic is the difference between 5w-20 and 0w-20 oil. That's the point.
 
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Originally Posted by BillyE
Mad Hatter— Nobody is talking about sludge. The topic is the difference between 5w-20 and 0w-20 oil. That's the point.
Not to belabor this issue but go back a read the thread from the beginning (don't just skip to the end of the discussion). By the 5th post in this thread the discussion begins to bunny trail off (not by me) into approved oils and warranties, from the OP's original "what's best" question. That's the origin of my comment re oil analysis and sludge blah blah blah... Nothing unusual for a BITOG thread... just check out the thread titled "Average new car payment..", that threads up to 29 pages now and has touched on home loans, college tuition, septic tanks, investment strategies, stick built v. pre-fab homes, best places to retire and I think I even spotted a reference to "Little House on the Prairie"...‚
 
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I use 5w30 in both of out 2.4 Hyundai's. 5k OCI's on both. In my opinion these engines for whatever reason are just not meant to run on thinner oil. I'd run a 5w40 in them if the manual would allow me to, but 5w30 in my climate is as thick as i'm able. Maybe i'm wrong but this is how I feel about it. Just had the Santa Fe's recall done, my Sonata's will get done here in a week or two. We'll see how it goes. They did tell me that most of the problem has been the harness, even engines that were replaced before would've only been a new harness if they knew that was a problem then. I guess time will tell. My Wife wants a new Santa Fe, but i'm holding off until the new Theta III's come out. A little more powerful and the dual injection system to be rid of any IVD concerns. Not that using a IVD cleaner once a year is a big deal, but it will be nice to not have to deal with it.
 
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by BillyE
So the answer is no, you don't know of an example where a dealer pulled a sample and sent it out for "full testing"—whatever that means.
And I personally don't have proof of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe but I'm pretty certain it's happened (-elsewhere). That said, you missed the forest looking for the tree...the point is both oil and engine mfgs reserve the right to collect and test fluids, that much is undeniable. Is it a common practice, probably not as I conceded.. simply because there are better and faster ways to determine if lack of maintenance or use of unapproved fluids were/was the cause of damage. However, if they denied your claim and you wanted to arbitrate the matter of your expensive engine..I would not be surprised if a fluid sample was taken for analysis if cursory evidence supported taking that step (by the mfg) in support of the claim denial. In fact I'm fairly certain it's been done, even more than once, over the decades of vehicle manufacturing and limited warranties. And because parties to a arbitration don't typically take out full page ads announcing the outcome (likely due to privacy/non-disclosure agreement), I'd imagine any search online to find one is going to be fruitless at worst, painstakingly long at best. And this forum and this discussion is simply not worth an evenings of my time. Btw, that was just one example dude..if you do a search just on BITOG alone, you'll find posts made by person's claiming to be ASE techs detailing how a warranty claim was denied just because excessive sludge was evidenced. (an indication of oil degradation possibly due to not adhering to the prescribed drain interval/or using a non spec fluid)
It is on the person making the claims to have the proof. It is impossible to prove a negative. I call 100% bs on a used oil chemistry test suggesting a one grade difference as sole proof denying a warranty claim. Just driving the car in the winter could do that if a little fuel gets in there. Think about how stupid that is for a minute -- let's say that you drained the oil out of your car, drove it until it was destroyed, then changed the oil before taking it in. Would having an oil test done prove you did nothing wrong?
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Originally Posted by wemay
I've mentioned it before. The Hyundai and KIA dealerships i visit say the same thing. They each use bulk conventional (KIA dealership says it's a blend) 5W30 and say they receive as many cases of IVD with Synthetics as with the bulk, not many but they do come in at a steady clip. The VAST majority of these cases involves extending OCI past 7K regardless of oil type. They've recommended 5K max no matter what is used. "They" are the ASE Techs I've become friendly with at Kendall Hyundai and have been friends with the Sunshine KIA Tech for some years now outside work, just didn't know he worked at KIA. Warranty work has never been denied because of aftermarket filters or viscosity. So long as the vehicle has oil or if very little oil is present, receipts showing an oil change in the last 7500 miles is present. Even then, most cases get approved receipts or not from mgt above the Techs. In my case, it's gonna be Goodyear $19.99 VWB 5w30 + their Napa ProSelect special or same special at VIOC dino with the few remaining filters i have stashed (thanks Adam) and a 3K mile OCI on the KIA Sportage.
*What the Kia Techs state is believable - running an oil too long for the engine and circumstances results in failures . You could still go into limp mode at any time no matter what with the 2.4L Theta II engine - but I am betting the use of 5W30 oil , a decent filter and an OCI of less than 5K miles will reduce the risk of the engine eating up rod bearings .
ESPECIALLY if you follow the manual's recommendation of 3750 mile OCI for severe service operation, which covers 90% of the population.
 
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Originally Posted by MuzzleFlash40
I use 5w30 in both of out 2.4 Hyundai's. 5k OCI's on both. In my opinion these engines for whatever reason are just not meant to run on thinner oil. I'd run a 5w40 in them if the manual would allow me to, but 5w30 in my climate is as thick as i'm able. Maybe i'm wrong but this is how I feel about it. Just had the Santa Fe's recall done, my Sonata's will get done here in a week or two. We'll see how it goes. They did tell me that most of the problem has been the harness, even engines that were replaced before would've only been a new harness if they knew that was a problem then. I guess time will tell. My Wife wants a new Santa Fe, but i'm holding off until the new Theta III's come out. A little more powerful and the dual injection system to be rid of any IVD concerns. Not that using a IVD cleaner once a year is a big deal, but it will be nice to not have to deal with it.
The current engines use a two step injection sequence to fight IVDs. I have yet to hear of a Hyundai/KIA with that issue. I have read a lot of posts of owners doing the CRC IVD cleaning as purely preventative measures, but I have not actually read of someone, that performed the required maintenance on schedule, having an actual IVD problem in HyunKia. In fact, they say specifically released a TSB saying that Fuel Injection Cleaning is NOT a recommended procedure. They recommend to use top tier fuel for every tankful or add Techron if that is not available.
 
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by bernau
I have an Elantra equivalent avante, the manual specs all the way to 20w 50 but when I called the service center, they said, only 5w-30 helix, use anything else, engine damaged, we will void your warranty.
I'd like to know how would they ever prove you used the wrong oil? Obviously, a paper trail would prove it. But if you faked the paper trail.....there is no way they could prove it without extensive testing of the used oil. I'm not buying it.
They wouldn't be the first dealer to pull a fluid sample and send it out for full testing....heck, the results of comprehensive testing might even show that you should cut back on the fast food!...‚
what would said testing entail? And would the results stand up in court?
 
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Originally Posted by wemay
In my case, it's gonna be Goodyear $19.99 VWB 5w30 + their Napa ProSelect special or same special at VIOC dino with the few remaining filters i have stashed (thanks Adam) and a 3K mile OCI on the KIA Sportage.
Well maybe not so rigid. I bought more Syn again today....
 
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Originally Posted by Whammo
I have a 2012 Kia optima and the Manual allows 5w20, 5w30 or 10w30 but doesn't say anything about 0w20 or 0w30. Is there any reason these wouldn't be suitable for this 2.4 L GDI engine?
Anything is suitable, there are products on the market in every imaginable way, so why look for other products that are not mentioned? There will always be one someplace. Bottom line, use 5w30 for extremely COLD weather if you live up north someplace or even in hot weather, its the perfect all around oil. 10w30 is an option if you never drive in cold weather below 25 f or so, either one is fine. Why on earth anyone would use a 20 make no sense, yes, ok, if you driving in weather that never gets above 32 degrees. 20 weight oil is the biggest EPA scam in history, people in here go nuts over thinking if they should use 20 weight or not. They will have no problem with the 20 but the thing is, the truly right oil in ALL cases above 32 degrees is 30 weight. Simple and clear. 20 is for a faction of a mile per gallon, if that.
 
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