Patman
Staff member
I just saw that today too, written by our own George too! I guess I'll have to try out the K&N FIPK unit on my car and see how the results turn out.
K&N vs others(paper)
- Thread starter Spector
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As Vader and others have said, I believe it has a lot to do with application and how the filter was installed.
I will be sending an oil sample in to Terry within the next two weeks on some testing I am doing, and when I installed this oil, I also installed an K&N air filter. Now I know I have no leaks, and I know I installed the filter correctly, including provided gasket and grease. This is on my company car, a 2000 Ponitac Grand Prix with the 3.8L engine.
I was also going to install a K&N on my sons 2002 Nissan Sentra. I purchased the K&N filter that was recommended, but it did not fit properly. I called K&N and they told me it fit all late model Sentra's and it should work fine. Well, I took it back to the parts store for a refund. Suppose to fit all late models does not cut it with me. It either does or it does not. It did not.
We will see.
I will be sending an oil sample in to Terry within the next two weeks on some testing I am doing, and when I installed this oil, I also installed an K&N air filter. Now I know I have no leaks, and I know I installed the filter correctly, including provided gasket and grease. This is on my company car, a 2000 Ponitac Grand Prix with the 3.8L engine.
I was also going to install a K&N on my sons 2002 Nissan Sentra. I purchased the K&N filter that was recommended, but it did not fit properly. I called K&N and they told me it fit all late model Sentra's and it should work fine. Well, I took it back to the parts store for a refund. Suppose to fit all late models does not cut it with me. It either does or it does not. It did not.
We will see.
My recent analysis from Terry showed 11 ppm Si, 12 ppm iron, in 3,263 miles. That was with a K&N filter every inch of the way, plus I changed the spark plugs during that fill. Add to that the red iron ore dirt & dust of NE Texas, driving through dusty highway construction & maint all the time(though not on dirt roads), I think the K&N did pretty well.
Found this at the LS1 site.
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?s=1234a51cd0816a6f94dda064ec6986a3&threadid=148317
Look at these pictures, article
wwww.geocities.com/gkurka2001/KNFilter.htm
www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/KN1.htm
wwww.geocities.com/gkurka2001/KNFilter.htm
www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/KN1.htm
Here is another link to an air filter comparison, this time between paper, K&N, and foam. The comparison is from a motorcycle perspective but there are enough similarities to cars to give it a read.
BMW Riders
Depends on the seal, the oiling, the element quality, the fit, and priorities.
On-road the K&N should help airflow somewhat without significant harmful effects. Off-road, in harsh environments, results are mixed. Luckily we can all make our own choices.
(Deleting long late-night rant. Haven't been here long enough to subject everyone.
David
[ August 29, 2002, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: OneQuartLow ]
On-road the K&N should help airflow somewhat without significant harmful effects. Off-road, in harsh environments, results are mixed. Luckily we can all make our own choices.
(Deleting long late-night rant. Haven't been here long enough to subject everyone.
David
[ August 29, 2002, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: OneQuartLow ]
I' new to this board. I have had a K&N on my 03 Mustang GT since I first got the car. It now has 6000 miles.
I am really curious if a K&N air filter protects as well as a paper filter. I am surprised at the lack of information on this topic.
Wouldn't it be fairly easy to do an oil analysis with a paper filter and then go 3K with a K&N and do an analysis? I have seen several posts, but does anyone know if as a rule or trend there is a noticable increase in Si count? I have heard some mechanics say they can always tell when an K&N is used. Is this true and how?
I am really curious if a K&N air filter protects as well as a paper filter. I am surprised at the lack of information on this topic.
Wouldn't it be fairly easy to do an oil analysis with a paper filter and then go 3K with a K&N and do an analysis? I have seen several posts, but does anyone know if as a rule or trend there is a noticable increase in Si count? I have heard some mechanics say they can always tell when an K&N is used. Is this true and how?
i looked at that link and i wonder..they said that napa is best cause the color of the material is really light...but coulnt that mean that it is not filtering and letting the rest through????
Thanks for the link, an interesting study.
In general, does anyone know if the oil analyis looks different running a K&N air filter versus a paper? More Si?
In general, does anyone know if the oil analyis looks different running a K&N air filter versus a paper? More Si?
I believe there are other posts that state the high SI content vs any other types of filter.
Man, I'm still confused with whether foam or paper filters better, based off that previous test, seems like AMSOIL leaks out just as much stuff as K&N, but looking at other test sites, FOAM seems to be the best.
Man, I'm still confused with whether foam or paper filters better, based off that previous test, seems like AMSOIL leaks out just as much stuff as K&N, but looking at other test sites, FOAM seems to be the best.
tadaima, there are posts though on this thread saying the K&N filtered better. I should do my own study, 3000 with a K&N, oil analysis and check for Si, then 3000 with a paper, oil analysis check for Si. I guess that is the bottom line. Either that, or maybe we better just trade our cars in after the warranties expire!
My take: I had the panel filters in for 100k / 151k mi.. I think they filter about equally (without doing an analysis). Afer 50k mi., they had an inch of sand on them...but, this added to the filtration. Never saw anything up from the filter...not even a speck of dust.
Initially the filters fit kinda loose in the box relative to the O.E. paper. Subsequent checks confirmed an effective albeit a thin 2-3 mm seal around the filter...in addition to a swelling effect of the panel filter after a few thousand miles improved the fit somewhat. However, after about 130k or so the rubber gasket starts to become distorted and worn in certain areas...probably from the numerous heat cycles. So realistically even though the filter was guaranteed for 1 million miles, my guess is it would only last about 500k before being distored enough to cause seal worries. Additionally, my new mechanic began removing the filter and checking it (for what?)...even told me he tapped them and blew air some air through them. This is when I got worried about damage and discontinued their use. Take home message: Just leave them in there...do not disturb.
Does anyone know if re-washing and re-oiling can repair any MILD damage caused by blowing very low pressure compressed air through the filters??? Or are they permanently damaged? Doesn't washing/re-oiling re-organize the fibers?
Switching back and forth from O.E. paper to K&N (after 130k mi.) I did notice a minor throttle response increase with the K&N, but also the rpms seemed to drop faster between shifts which resulted in an increased difficulty in achieving smooth shifts on the street during mild mannered driving.
This is major reason why I went back to the O.E. paper for good. Plus, it's sooo easier to just put in a new paper each time rather than spending all day getting dirty washing, drying re-oiling...etc...
Initially the filters fit kinda loose in the box relative to the O.E. paper. Subsequent checks confirmed an effective albeit a thin 2-3 mm seal around the filter...in addition to a swelling effect of the panel filter after a few thousand miles improved the fit somewhat. However, after about 130k or so the rubber gasket starts to become distorted and worn in certain areas...probably from the numerous heat cycles. So realistically even though the filter was guaranteed for 1 million miles, my guess is it would only last about 500k before being distored enough to cause seal worries. Additionally, my new mechanic began removing the filter and checking it (for what?)...even told me he tapped them and blew air some air through them. This is when I got worried about damage and discontinued their use. Take home message: Just leave them in there...do not disturb.
Does anyone know if re-washing and re-oiling can repair any MILD damage caused by blowing very low pressure compressed air through the filters??? Or are they permanently damaged? Doesn't washing/re-oiling re-organize the fibers?
Switching back and forth from O.E. paper to K&N (after 130k mi.) I did notice a minor throttle response increase with the K&N, but also the rpms seemed to drop faster between shifts which resulted in an increased difficulty in achieving smooth shifts on the street during mild mannered driving.
This is major reason why I went back to the O.E. paper for good. Plus, it's sooo easier to just put in a new paper each time rather than spending all day getting dirty washing, drying re-oiling...etc...
Gentlemen....
You all have been very helpful to me concerning my oil choices. I'm a member of TCCoA
and have a lot of experience with the K&N filter and how it should and should not be used
including feedback from a Ford engineer who is now working for Roush.....
There are some surprising things to know about that ait filters usage, if you'd like me tomput up a fairly long post on the pro's , cons, and dont's...I'd be most happy to...
You all have been very helpful to me concerning my oil choices. I'm a member of TCCoA
and have a lot of experience with the K&N filter and how it should and should not be used
including feedback from a Ford engineer who is now working for Roush.....
There are some surprising things to know about that ait filters usage, if you'd like me tomput up a fairly long post on the pro's , cons, and dont's...I'd be most happy to...
hey ill be interested in that!, what other things have u done with air filters? i have an accord in need of power lol.
what products do u have knowledge of?
TCCoA is a Thunderbird club (MN12's specifically) that is relatively technically oriented....
many of us use the K&N filter and we have had a lot of feedback from members and
this extremely knowledgeable engineer who also is/has been a very serious drag racer.
Point #1. You all are doing flow tests I believe. That's great, would love to see the results...
Point #2. The engineer we know is not inpressed with the oil/cotton design and maintains
he has sees no benefit powerwise square inch to paper (clean) square inch....
Point #3. HOWEVER...One of our supercharged boys went 5 hp higher at peak rpm when he changed from a panel to a cone K&N...not much gain and that was going to a cone. He would not have produced that gain N/A...
Point #4. This same engineer doesn't like the oil/cotton design because of oil migration from
the filter to your engines' MAF wires which throws off the readings being interpreted by your
PCM through the Transfer Function Tables....Keeping your MAF wires clean is absolutely critical to proper engine function.
Point #5. I have used K&N filters for twenyy-five years and have learned how to use them relatively judicially....
I'm going to go to our site's archives and pull up some of my posts with reference to correct cleaning and oiling procedures that also help minimize oil migration. Should take about 15 minutes...
many of us use the K&N filter and we have had a lot of feedback from members and
this extremely knowledgeable engineer who also is/has been a very serious drag racer.
Point #1. You all are doing flow tests I believe. That's great, would love to see the results...
Point #2. The engineer we know is not inpressed with the oil/cotton design and maintains
he has sees no benefit powerwise square inch to paper (clean) square inch....
Point #3. HOWEVER...One of our supercharged boys went 5 hp higher at peak rpm when he changed from a panel to a cone K&N...not much gain and that was going to a cone. He would not have produced that gain N/A...
Point #4. This same engineer doesn't like the oil/cotton design because of oil migration from
the filter to your engines' MAF wires which throws off the readings being interpreted by your
PCM through the Transfer Function Tables....Keeping your MAF wires clean is absolutely critical to proper engine function.
Point #5. I have used K&N filters for twenyy-five years and have learned how to use them relatively judicially....
I'm going to go to our site's archives and pull up some of my posts with reference to correct cleaning and oiling procedures that also help minimize oil migration. Should take about 15 minutes...
Here is a cut and paste from our archives of a post I made last year....
" First let me say that I have total respect for the advice Jerry
gives us and, no doubt, K&N filters do allow oil to migrate
on to our MAF's wires. Also I have no argument that, as Jerry
has stated, a K&N filter of the same size as a given paper
element, does not produce more power.
That said, let me make a few simple observations:
1) I, like many of us, had tended towards the idea of going back
to a paper element instead of my K&N filter - until, I happened to
bring the subject up to Scott, an engineer at AED. He, as it so
happens, had run some tests on various filter elements on their
flow bench - the discouraging result was that he found that paper
elements clog quickly when exposed to dust and dirt. Whereas
the K&N doesn't.
2) I have used K&N style filters for many, many more years than
I care to admit, and have not had MAF problems on my 'Birds with
them. I have no doubt, however that very, very light oil migration
has/is taking place and that occasional MAF wire cleaning would
be a good idea.
3) If you choose to use a K&N style filter I have observed a couple
of guidelines that apparently kept me and my MAFS out of trouble,
namely:
4) Clean your K&N style filter as rarely as possible - if it doesn't
have a 1/4" of gumbo on it, you probably don't need to clean it.
They may not look pretty when "dirty", but they still flow very well.
Also, cleaning breaks down and eventually mats the cotton "fluff"
of the element and finally kills it's free breathing qualities.
5) After proper cleaning and drying, oil the element LIGHTLY, it
should still look splotchy. If you have a nice even, deep red coat
of oil on the cotton, you've put WAY too much on.
6) Clean off the inner edges of the filter's frame and stand the
element up and let the oil wick throughout the cotton. If after
a few hours, the element still is splotchy, then LIGHTLY hit
the dry spots.
7) If, however, after standing those few hours after your initial
oiling, you find that ANY oil has seeped onto the inner edges of
the filter frame, you sprayed TOO MUCH oil on the element in
the first place, and you'll have to clean and dry the element all
over again - before respraying.
8) Once you have your filter oiled properly and reinstalled, try not
to go out and immediately hit WOT - give the element time to
"dry" out a bit, slowly, and not dump a load of oil on your MAF all
at once.
Please remember, these observations are meant only to provide
you with a possible alternative. If you have come to the decision
to use a paper element, then by all means, do so. Just be aware
that you may need to change your filter often, especially if you
happen to run your car into or through a dusty environment.
Hope this helps,
Mager Thom
" First let me say that I have total respect for the advice Jerry
gives us and, no doubt, K&N filters do allow oil to migrate
on to our MAF's wires. Also I have no argument that, as Jerry
has stated, a K&N filter of the same size as a given paper
element, does not produce more power.
That said, let me make a few simple observations:
1) I, like many of us, had tended towards the idea of going back
to a paper element instead of my K&N filter - until, I happened to
bring the subject up to Scott, an engineer at AED. He, as it so
happens, had run some tests on various filter elements on their
flow bench - the discouraging result was that he found that paper
elements clog quickly when exposed to dust and dirt. Whereas
the K&N doesn't.
2) I have used K&N style filters for many, many more years than
I care to admit, and have not had MAF problems on my 'Birds with
them. I have no doubt, however that very, very light oil migration
has/is taking place and that occasional MAF wire cleaning would
be a good idea.
3) If you choose to use a K&N style filter I have observed a couple
of guidelines that apparently kept me and my MAFS out of trouble,
namely:
4) Clean your K&N style filter as rarely as possible - if it doesn't
have a 1/4" of gumbo on it, you probably don't need to clean it.
They may not look pretty when "dirty", but they still flow very well.
Also, cleaning breaks down and eventually mats the cotton "fluff"
of the element and finally kills it's free breathing qualities.
5) After proper cleaning and drying, oil the element LIGHTLY, it
should still look splotchy. If you have a nice even, deep red coat
of oil on the cotton, you've put WAY too much on.
6) Clean off the inner edges of the filter's frame and stand the
element up and let the oil wick throughout the cotton. If after
a few hours, the element still is splotchy, then LIGHTLY hit
the dry spots.
7) If, however, after standing those few hours after your initial
oiling, you find that ANY oil has seeped onto the inner edges of
the filter frame, you sprayed TOO MUCH oil on the element in
the first place, and you'll have to clean and dry the element all
over again - before respraying.
8) Once you have your filter oiled properly and reinstalled, try not
to go out and immediately hit WOT - give the element time to
"dry" out a bit, slowly, and not dump a load of oil on your MAF all
at once.
Please remember, these observations are meant only to provide
you with a possible alternative. If you have come to the decision
to use a paper element, then by all means, do so. Just be aware
that you may need to change your filter often, especially if you
happen to run your car into or through a dusty environment.
Hope this helps,
Mager Thom
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