JWS3309 and Aisin Warner trannies

[Mr.Fork]

Over at http://www.volvoxc.com - there is a lot of concern of using non-JWS3309 transmission fluids in our wagons. Reason why it comes up is that Volvo charges around $20 a quart for re-badged Mobil JWS3309 and it takes many quarts for the 80'000km transmission flush costing several hundred dollars.

I recently discovered that Mobil sells rebadged JWS3309 ATF through Ford as XT-8QAW, GM as #9986195, and Toyota as T-IV. Aisin Warner is actually owned by Toyota, making the T-IV a logical economical replacement from the Volvo badged fluids seeing how the XC70 is using a Toyota transmission.

Here at BITOGuy, I see a lot of Toyota owners using AMSOIL Universal ATF, with JWS3309 as part of the certifications it covers. I also see other products by Valvoline and others claiming they cover the Toyota Type-IV but not JWS3309 (AMSOIL the only one so far).

Questions
1. If Mazda issues a tech service bulletin NOT to put anything but JWS3309 oils in our transmissions, how can Valvoline and AMSOIL make their claims that their ATF products are compatible?
2. Is there something we're being lied to that only JWS3309 fluids work?
3. Our Aisin Warner transmissions are pretty expensive to repair and replace, is it worth the risk?

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

Hopefully I can answer some of these as best as I can.

1. Other oil companies can make the claim as long as they state their ATF is a recommended replacement for transmissions calling for JWS3309, and/or it physically meets/exceeds all specs. This is evaluated by field testing, as well as bench testing. It would be idiotic of any company to blindly state their ATF works without testing.

2. Most likely, but I do not have further information regarding that. It does seem to me that EVERY automaker wants their own ATF name/specification, even if it contains a DexronIII/Mercon base formula.

3. My personal opinion is simply, there is no risk as long as you use a fluid that is a recommended replacement for JWS3309. I believe lack of maintenance will be more of a risk than using a universal fluid that has been tested and evaluated as a safe fluid for use in your transmission.

I'm sure others will chime in with more specifics, aside from the "follow OEM, they know everything" responses.

 

[The Critic]

1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application. It might work OK, but long-term durability and performance especially under severe service is unknown.

2. Yes and no. They may work OK, but whether or not the fluids can pass all tests that were originally run by the OEM (on the licensed fill) is unknown. Aftermarket companies don't have access to certain tests (or possibly the ability to fund them).

3. I would use the OEM fluid. If you are uncomfortable, then change it more frequently. T-IV can be purchased at any Toyota dealership for around $5/qt.

A rebuild for an AW unit runs more than $3k now, with remans in the $5k range.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application.


1) Prove it. Right here and now, Mike. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Prove it!!

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: The Critic
1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application.


1) Prove it. Right here and now, Mike. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Prove it!!


It hasn't passed the OEM's tests. As a result, there's no way to prove that the fluid will work well in the application. The aftermarket lacks the resources to run the same tests that the OEM does.

 

[Pablo]

Quote:
Questions
1. If Mazda issues a tech service bulletin NOT to put anything but JWS3309 oils in our transmissions, how can Valvoline and AMSOIL make their claims that their ATF products are compatible?
2. Is there something we're being lied to that only JWS3309 fluids work?
3. Our Aisin Warner transmissions are pretty expensive to repair and replace, is it worth the risk?


1) Because Amsoil knows the properties and applications of JWS3309. They not only reverse engineer the fluid, they test in on the bench and in transmissions.
2) It's not a lie. I mean you really don't want to put a generic petro based Dex III fluid in your AW AT. What Mike (the Critic) and some of the others fail to understand is that modern universal fluids, such as Amsoil, contain a variety of organic and inorganic FM's along with a mix of superior synthetic base oils that work just fine in JWS3309 applications.
3) It's not really a risk. Amsoil stands behind their product recommendations.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: The Critic
1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application.


1) Prove it. Right here and now, Mike. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Prove it!!


It hasn't passed the OEM's tests. As a result, there's no way to prove that the fluid will work well in the application. The aftermarket lacks the resources to run the same tests that the OEM does.


Sure Mike - you suppose this to be true. How do you know this? But I said prove your statement. Please.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: The Critic
1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application.


1) Prove it. Right here and now, Mike. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Prove it!!


It hasn't passed the OEM's tests. As a result, there's no way to prove that the fluid will work well in the application. The aftermarket lacks the resources to run the same tests that the OEM does.


Sure Mike - you suppose this to be true. How do you know this? But I said prove your statement. Please.

Has Honda released the specs of their fluid?

Does Honda allow for licensing of their fluid?

Last that I checked, Honda considers the info regarding their fluid to be proprietary.

 

[porkfarm]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: The Critic
1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application.


1) Prove it. Right here and now, Mike. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Prove it!!


03 Jaguar X-Type ATF. Just Proved ! This should be the same JWS fluid. AMSoil will not recommend any Amsoil fluid for this car.

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

Quote:
AMSoil will not recommend any Amsoil fluid for this car.

They will not recommend it if they have not tested it in your application. If I recall, Subaru transmissions were off limits for recommendations only because Amsoil had not tested it. Also, the Subaru ATF was nothing special. They finally did test it and now recommend their ATF for Subarus. Same thing could be going on with your Jaguar. Common logic would say that if the fluid for your transmission is the exact same as JWS3309, and Amsoil's ATF is recommended as a replacement for JWS3309, then you could use it safely. Unless Pablo knows of anything regarding this, I would suggest e-mailing Amsoil tech support and inquire about this.

Gee, I didn't see a debate with the Critic starting again...

Just because Honda didn't release the fluid specs to you, does not mean that the fluid specs are kept 100% secret. As I stated before in the other thread, other oil companies are not the same as the "general public."

 

[widman]

The fluid and friction characteristics are not as mysterious as we are led to believe. The scientists don't all work for Toyota. Take a combination of reverse engineering and purchasing additive packages from the additive companies and you can put together a product that crosses the lines of the myths.
I was once on the other side of this argument, but reading and testing changed my mind. I have a product that is supposed to "meet or exceed" (Actually don't really like that term, but it applies here) Mercon V, ATF+4, etc. When I put it in cars and get the same performance as the other fluids, I am further convinced, even though I can't run those cars 200,000 miles to see how they hold up. That part has to come from faith in the manufacturer.

 

[moeb]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

The aftermarket lacks the resources to run the same tests that the OEM does.


Castrol's MV Import ATF is now 3309 compliant. They have a few resources.

 

[Tones]

I agree with previous posters. This is not some unsolvable mystery and these fluids are not all that different from one another. The base fluids are all within a given viscocity range and there are only a few additive package companies that are all well known. Amsoil backs up their recommendations with testing, something I am sure not all manufacturers do.

That Mazda TSB is pretty old and Amsoil is a small player. It is no mystery there either about why Amsoil was not included on the list.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: porkfarm
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: The Critic
1. They build a fluid that does not work well in every application.


1) Prove it. Right here and now, Mike. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Prove it!!


03 Jaguar X-Type ATF. Just Proved ! This should be the same JWS fluid. AMSoil will not recommend any Amsoil fluid for this car.


Amsoil guide (which comes from a look up guidebook and is tailored/corrected as necessary) says: ATF IDEMITSU K17 (Jatco 3100 PL085) - I'm not familiar with this fluid. Is this a truly a JWS3309 equivalent??? If so, I can ask Amsoil to look into it. But I'm not sure this is what Mike was implying.

 

[Mr.Fork]

Thanks for the replies guys - gave me a lot to think about.

What I'm hearing is:
a) As long as the fluid says it covers JWS3309 it can be used
b) Using Toyota T-IV is good.
c) Other fluid manufacturers make 3309 compliant ATF.

Question: If it says Toyota Type-IV and not JWS-3309 compliant, is it still safe to use in a JWS-3309 recommended transmission?

 

[DaveL]

Another option is to order a case of Mobil JWS3309 from AV Lubricants. $65 including shipping - so your total cost is $5.40/qt, delivered to your door.

 

[Eddie]

+1 for Davel: No guessing with this plan. I would hate to spend $2,000 to get my nearly new transmission rebuilt because I used an AT fluid that should have been OK. JMO ED

 

[Mr.Fork]

Fair enough, but AV Lubricants don't sell to Canucks.

I'll see about picking up some T-IV fluid from Toyota.

 

[Mr.Fork]

Sorry - AV Lubricants sells to Canada but ships via UPS. And we all know what that means. Ridiculous brokerage fees. ugh. :no-no:

 

[DaveL]

Sorry - I didn't notice your location before I made the suggestion.

From what I've read on some Volvo sites, you're probably fine with the Toyota T-IV, but if you want to look for the JWS 3309, you may be able to find a local ExxonMobil distributor in Calgary that carries it. After I bought from AV, I found a distributor in Boston that I could have used, but I would have needed to drive there and pick it up.