Yes, I called Motul USA in California. The guy was definitely not in France or whatever.
Just got off the phone with a Motul tech...
- Thread starter dparm
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Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I see, but I was going to say that you simply will see no benefit over the decent array of, not only otc store oils, but even conventional oils. Why not keep putting money into used oil analysis, DIY your own changes at nice short intervals with some of the great $2 oils we can buy...then you can laugh at guys overspending on oils with fancy names.
Just my opinion, you're great member here and should def do what YOU want to do, but I also think you deserve honest feedback.
You should try stuff like Mobil 1 High Mileage if you want "the best", but also I see no reason why good old Pennzoil 10w40 or HD oils would not work great.
I was wondering when you would pop in and suggest HM.
I see, but I was going to say that you simply will see no benefit over the decent array of, not only otc store oils, but even conventional oils. Why not keep putting money into used oil analysis, DIY your own changes at nice short intervals with some of the great $2 oils we can buy...then you can laugh at guys overspending on oils with fancy names.
Just my opinion, you're great member here and should def do what YOU want to do, but I also think you deserve honest feedback.
You should try stuff like Mobil 1 High Mileage if you want "the best", but also I see no reason why good old Pennzoil 10w40 or HD oils would not work great.
I was wondering when you would pop in and suggest HM.
Based on the type of esters alone. I wonder if there is an advantage over the esters in 300V vs. the POE's in Red Line, and if one is better than the other in a severe application. Motul isn't too specific:
Double Ester Technology, made by carefully balancing the ratio of complex esters and the newly developed macromolecular high polymer esters, ...
And from TomNJ's paper on esters:
In addition, polyol esters usually have more ester groups than the diesters and this added polarity further reduces volatility and enhances the lubricity characteristics while retaining all the other desirable properties inherent with diesters. This makes polyol esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs begin to fade.
-Dennis
Double Ester Technology, made by carefully balancing the ratio of complex esters and the newly developed macromolecular high polymer esters, ...
And from TomNJ's paper on esters:
In addition, polyol esters usually have more ester groups than the diesters and this added polarity further reduces volatility and enhances the lubricity characteristics while retaining all the other desirable properties inherent with diesters. This makes polyol esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs begin to fade.
-Dennis
It's not so much suggesting Mobil 1 High Mileage, it's the fact your app just isn't that demanding. How could an oil like RTS pass all the heavy industrial tests if it was bunk? That's just a starting point.
Another starting point would be to really think about what the goal is. If you had DI...another story. I'm just not convinced and do know a few other 4.2 owners who just use whatever, like dealer Syntec 5w-40 and are well-served by it.
The additives and base oils in otc oil simply are not lacking...at all.
Another starting point would be to really think about what the goal is. If you had DI...another story. I'm just not convinced and do know a few other 4.2 owners who just use whatever, like dealer Syntec 5w-40 and are well-served by it.
The additives and base oils in otc oil simply are not lacking...at all.
Look how nicely LLubromoly worked in this DI TSI...
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: dparm
The Motul tech's biggest concern for my particular car was the massive under-hood heat. It's a 4.2L V8 inside the engine bay of a Jetta, for all intensive purposes. The car has 3 radiators and a water cooled alternator. That's why he recommended the 5w40, but still said the 5w30 is quite stable in high temps and barely shears for most around-town driving.
Yeah, but Audi evidently thinks that xw-30s are fine for all climates as long as they have HTHS values of 3.5 or greater and meet all the other test specs -- and you can be [censored] sure most of them aren't as tough as 300V.
Isn't 300V a racing oil therefore not suitable for the rigors associated with constant cold starts, and stop-go city traffic?
Originally Posted By: dparm
The Motul tech's biggest concern for my particular car was the massive under-hood heat. It's a 4.2L V8 inside the engine bay of a Jetta, for all intensive purposes. The car has 3 radiators and a water cooled alternator. That's why he recommended the 5w40, but still said the 5w30 is quite stable in high temps and barely shears for most around-town driving.
Yeah, but Audi evidently thinks that xw-30s are fine for all climates as long as they have HTHS values of 3.5 or greater and meet all the other test specs -- and you can be [censored] sure most of them aren't as tough as 300V.
Isn't 300V a racing oil therefore not suitable for the rigors associated with constant cold starts, and stop-go city traffic?
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Isn't 300V a racing oil therefore not suitable for the rigors associated with constant cold starts, and stop-go city traffic?
Each formulation is different. However, all of them are street-friendly and, despite their unremarkable pour points, apparently flow fairly well when cold compared to their peers. The only rigor to which they tend not to be suited is a long drain interval.
This is my understanding from speaking with Motul USA.
Isn't 300V a racing oil therefore not suitable for the rigors associated with constant cold starts, and stop-go city traffic?
Each formulation is different. However, all of them are street-friendly and, despite their unremarkable pour points, apparently flow fairly well when cold compared to their peers. The only rigor to which they tend not to be suited is a long drain interval.
This is my understanding from speaking with Motul USA.
Yes, but they DO have relatively high TBNs (around 9-10, if I recall correctly, higher than Red Line's ~8.0), so it depends on what one calls a "long drain interval", I guess.
The tech I spoke to at Motul USA (about 2 weels ago) was also very informative and helpful, BUT also VERY secretive, and unforthcoming about IF ANY (not even the actual ppm amounts of); moly, boron, antimony are added to the 300V formulations, when asked.
Let alone the ester/diester/etc. percentage compositions of it's base stock (which yes, everyone of the techs of EVERY boutique synthetic are VERY 'proprietary' about
).
YES, I know I could go to the VOA section on here and look it up, but I wanted to hear it 'from the horse's mouth' so to speak (the way that Dave at Red Line will give you the exact ppms if he has them).
The tech I spoke to at Motul USA (about 2 weels ago) was also very informative and helpful, BUT also VERY secretive, and unforthcoming about IF ANY (not even the actual ppm amounts of); moly, boron, antimony are added to the 300V formulations, when asked.
Let alone the ester/diester/etc. percentage compositions of it's base stock (which yes, everyone of the techs of EVERY boutique synthetic are VERY 'proprietary' about
YES, I know I could go to the VOA section on here and look it up, but I wanted to hear it 'from the horse's mouth' so to speak (the way that Dave at Red Line will give you the exact ppms if he has them).
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Yes, but they DO have relatively high TBNs (around 9-10, if I recall correctly, higher than Red Line's ~8.0), so it depends on what one calls a "long drain interval", I guess.
True, but TBN doesn't mean much in and of itself. I'm pretty sure 300V's chemistries tend to demand higher TBNs than most.
Yes, but they DO have relatively high TBNs (around 9-10, if I recall correctly, higher than Red Line's ~8.0), so it depends on what one calls a "long drain interval", I guess.
True, but TBN doesn't mean much in and of itself. I'm pretty sure 300V's chemistries tend to demand higher TBNs than most.
Well I snagged the 300V 5w30. I figure it's worth a shot. If the used oil analysis looks as good as the 5w40 did, I'll order the 25L bucket -- the seller can get it to me at a really good price (less than qt shipped to my door).
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I see, but I was going to say that you simply will see no benefit over the decent array of, not only otc store oils, but even conventional oils. Why not keep putting money into used oil analysis, DIY your own changes at nice short intervals with some of the great $2 oils we can buy...then you can laugh at guys overspending on oils with fancy names.
Just my opinion, you're great member here and should def do what YOU want to do, but I also think you deserve honest feedback.
You should try stuff like Mobil 1 High Mileage if you want "the best", but also I see no reason why good old Pennzoil 10w40 or HD oils would not work great.
I was wondering when you would pop in and suggest HM.
Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30 is IMO just a marketing stunt and is anything but their best oil.
M1's best oils are their 0W-XX range.
If you want or need a HTHS vis of 3.4cP then go with a 50/50 blend of AFE 0w30 and 0W-40. The end result will give you a heavy 0w30 with the same HTHS value but with a 182 VI vs the rather low 162 of the HM 5w30.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I see, but I was going to say that you simply will see no benefit over the decent array of, not only otc store oils, but even conventional oils. Why not keep putting money into used oil analysis, DIY your own changes at nice short intervals with some of the great $2 oils we can buy...then you can laugh at guys overspending on oils with fancy names.
Just my opinion, you're great member here and should def do what YOU want to do, but I also think you deserve honest feedback.
You should try stuff like Mobil 1 High Mileage if you want "the best", but also I see no reason why good old Pennzoil 10w40 or HD oils would not work great.
I was wondering when you would pop in and suggest HM.
Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30 is IMO just a marketing stunt and is anything but their best oil.
M1's best oils are their 0W-XX range.
If you want or need a HTHS vis of 3.4cP then go with a 50/50 blend of AFE 0w30 and 0W-40. The end result will give you a heavy 0w30 with the same HTHS value but with a 182 VI vs the rather low 162 of the HM 5w30.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I see, but I was going to say that you simply will see no benefit over the decent array of, not only otc store oils, but even conventional oils. Why not keep putting money into used oil analysis, DIY your own changes at nice short intervals with some of the great $2 oils we can buy...then you can laugh at guys overspending on oils with fancy names.
Just my opinion, you're great member here and should def do what YOU want to do, but I also think you deserve honest feedback.
You should try stuff like Mobil 1 High Mileage if you want "the best", but also I see no reason why good old Pennzoil 10w40 or HD oils would not work great.
I was wondering when you would pop in and suggest HM.
Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30 is IMO just a marketing stunt and is anything but their best oil.
Mobil 1's best oils are their 0W-XX range.
If you want or need a HTHS vis of 3.4cP then go with a 50/50 blend of AFE 0w30 and 0W-40. The end result will give you a heavy 0w30 with the same HTHS value but with a 182 VI vs the rather low 162 of the HM 5w30.
Ouch! You just skewered the plan for my next few oil changes. I was planning to go with Mobil 1 High Mileage's on my Camaro to do some "conditioning" of the seals and to get some added detergency to clean out possible sludge. I would run 5w30 in the winter and 10w30 in the summer. I have looked at the specs for the HM's, and see that they have significant increases in HTHS, antiwear additives, and detergency over the standard Mobil 1 5w30. I think you overstate the case when you say the HM's are just a marketing stunt.
But I am willing to believe that the 0w's may be better oils in some ways. Can you elaborate in what ways? I really did like your suggestion last week to mix 0w30 and 0w40, but decided against it for the next 2-3 OCI's to get the benefit of seal conditioning and detergency from the HM's. Do you think I could get the same benefits from the 0w30 and 0w40 mix?
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I see, but I was going to say that you simply will see no benefit over the decent array of, not only otc store oils, but even conventional oils. Why not keep putting money into used oil analysis, DIY your own changes at nice short intervals with some of the great $2 oils we can buy...then you can laugh at guys overspending on oils with fancy names.
Just my opinion, you're great member here and should def do what YOU want to do, but I also think you deserve honest feedback.
You should try stuff like Mobil 1 High Mileage if you want "the best", but also I see no reason why good old Pennzoil 10w40 or HD oils would not work great.
I was wondering when you would pop in and suggest HM.
Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30 is IMO just a marketing stunt and is anything but their best oil.
Mobil 1's best oils are their 0W-XX range.
If you want or need a HTHS vis of 3.4cP then go with a 50/50 blend of AFE 0w30 and 0W-40. The end result will give you a heavy 0w30 with the same HTHS value but with a 182 VI vs the rather low 162 of the HM 5w30.
Ouch! You just skewered the plan for my next few oil changes. I was planning to go with Mobil 1 High Mileage's on my Camaro to do some "conditioning" of the seals and to get some added detergency to clean out possible sludge. I would run 5w30 in the winter and 10w30 in the summer. I have looked at the specs for the HM's, and see that they have significant increases in HTHS, antiwear additives, and detergency over the standard Mobil 1 5w30. I think you overstate the case when you say the HM's are just a marketing stunt.
But I am willing to believe that the 0w's may be better oils in some ways. Can you elaborate in what ways? I really did like your suggestion last week to mix 0w30 and 0w40, but decided against it for the next 2-3 OCI's to get the benefit of seal conditioning and detergency from the HM's. Do you think I could get the same benefits from the 0w30 and 0w40 mix?
It will water down the benefits of each. I'm not a fan of mixing two different oil formulations. Some of us blend an identical line of oils to get a custom viscosity.
I believe the leading edge of what Mobil knows goes into their 0W range of oils, and they are the most expensive to formulate. As a consiquence the consumer gets an overall better value when choosing them.
The blending of Mobil 1's 0W-40 which is a race proven LL oil with their 0w30 will give you higher levels of Phos' and detergency over Mobil 1 5w30 while retaining all the benefits of a 0W-XX high VI oil.
In fact a 55/45 0W-40 0w30 blend will give you an equivalent A3 oil that will out perform any other heavy 0w30 on the market including GC (VI 167) and Total (VI 170).
About the only thing I can see you're getting with the Mobil 1 High Mileage is the additional seal conditioning and my attitude is, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". There is no shortage of cheap products on the market to deal with that if you specifically need it.
BTW, as an option you could substitute regular Mobil 1 5w30 for the 0w30 if cold temp' performance is not a priority and use less of the 0W-40 to achieve the same desired HTHS vis'.
The blending of Mobil 1's 0W-40 which is a race proven LL oil with their 0w30 will give you higher levels of Phos' and detergency over Mobil 1 5w30 while retaining all the benefits of a 0W-XX high VI oil.
In fact a 55/45 0W-40 0w30 blend will give you an equivalent A3 oil that will out perform any other heavy 0w30 on the market including GC (VI 167) and Total (VI 170).
About the only thing I can see you're getting with the Mobil 1 High Mileage is the additional seal conditioning and my attitude is, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". There is no shortage of cheap products on the market to deal with that if you specifically need it.
BTW, as an option you could substitute regular Mobil 1 5w30 for the 0w30 if cold temp' performance is not a priority and use less of the 0W-40 to achieve the same desired HTHS vis'.
Originally Posted By: dparm
It will water down the benefits of each. I'm not a fan of mixing two different oil formulations. Some of us blend an identical line of oils to get a custom viscosity.
Mobil has no problem in blending any of their street oils and like RL has given their "blessing" to achieve a certain viscosity or other characteristic like a certain Phos' or TBN level.
It will water down the benefits of each. I'm not a fan of mixing two different oil formulations. Some of us blend an identical line of oils to get a custom viscosity.
Mobil has no problem in blending any of their street oils and like RL has given their "blessing" to achieve a certain viscosity or other characteristic like a certain Phos' or TBN level.
CATERHAM is correct IMO. Their 0w oils are their best and the Mobil 1 line is their best oil. The High Mileage is a lot of marketing. Probably just a bit more of an ester for seal swell.
This might ruffle some feathers, but if you notice their High Mileage oils look like Mobil 1 from 2005-2006. They've moved on to newer additives. Amsoil ATM/ASM still look like M1 from 2005, which is what that guy from NORIA was getting at when he said boutique oils are usually a bit behind in additive technology. This doesn't apply to all of Amsoil or any boutique's oil line.
This might ruffle some feathers, but if you notice their High Mileage oils look like Mobil 1 from 2005-2006. They've moved on to newer additives. Amsoil ATM/ASM still look like M1 from 2005, which is what that guy from NORIA was getting at when he said boutique oils are usually a bit behind in additive technology. This doesn't apply to all of Amsoil or any boutique's oil line.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
It will water down the benefits of each. I'm not a fan of mixing two different oil formulations. Some of us blend an identical line of oils to get a custom viscosity.
Mobil has no problem in blending any of their street oils and like RL has given their "blessing" to achieve a certain viscosity or other characteristic like a certain Phos' or TBN level.
CATERHAM; Does Mobil's 0W-40 have any group 5 basestock, or their 0w30 race oil for that matter??
I'm only asking as a suggestion for those who desire/need some of that ester base producing seal swell, and cleaning effect, and absolutely NOT as a put of their fine products.
Originally Posted By: dparm
It will water down the benefits of each. I'm not a fan of mixing two different oil formulations. Some of us blend an identical line of oils to get a custom viscosity.
Mobil has no problem in blending any of their street oils and like RL has given their "blessing" to achieve a certain viscosity or other characteristic like a certain Phos' or TBN level.
CATERHAM; Does Mobil's 0W-40 have any group 5 basestock, or their 0w30 race oil for that matter??
I'm only asking as a suggestion for those who desire/need some of that ester base producing seal swell, and cleaning effect, and absolutely NOT as a put of their fine products.
Originally Posted By: buster
This might ruffle some feathers, but if you notice their High Mileage oils look like Mobil 1 from 2005-2006.
I have thought that this might be the case. The High Mileage oils are SL-rated, not SM. This could be due to the Phos content that is in excess of SM specs. The SL rating does show that they are different than the basic Mobil 1 5w30. It might also mean that they are an old formulation, containing older additives. Maybe this is the oil I was using when the car was new. Who knows?
This might ruffle some feathers, but if you notice their High Mileage oils look like Mobil 1 from 2005-2006.
I have thought that this might be the case. The High Mileage oils are SL-rated, not SM. This could be due to the Phos content that is in excess of SM specs. The SL rating does show that they are different than the basic Mobil 1 5w30. It might also mean that they are an old formulation, containing older additives. Maybe this is the oil I was using when the car was new. Who knows?
Originally Posted By: dparm
My used oil analysis of the 5w40 (at 2500 miles, halfway to my OCI) showed very little shearing (from 13.3 to 12.4 CST, including a track day and 3 autocrosses on top of my daily lead-foot). To be fair it's the motorcycle variant but the specs are virtually identical.
You don't want to run the motorcycle oil in your automobile. MC oils have less friction modifyers to reduce wear. Look in your manual and see if they prescribe the oil weight by the climate in which you drive.
My used oil analysis of the 5w40 (at 2500 miles, halfway to my OCI) showed very little shearing (from 13.3 to 12.4 CST, including a track day and 3 autocrosses on top of my daily lead-foot). To be fair it's the motorcycle variant but the specs are virtually identical.
You don't want to run the motorcycle oil in your automobile. MC oils have less friction modifyers to reduce wear. Look in your manual and see if they prescribe the oil weight by the climate in which you drive.
Originally Posted By: dparm
My used oil analysis of the 5w40 (at 2500 miles, halfway to my OCI) showed very little shearing (from 13.3 to 12.4 CST, including a track day and 3 autocrosses on top of my daily lead-foot). To be fair it's the motorcycle variant but the specs are virtually identical.
Not exactly identical.
The auto version has a higher KV100 and KV40 spec's; 13.8cSt and 80.8cSt respectively. Plus it has a noticeably lower VI of 176 vs 187 for the 4T. Motul doesn't publish the HTHS spec's for it's 4T oils but it is undoubtedly lower than the 4.51cP for the auto oil.
Overall, I prefer the 4T 5W-40 oil to the auto version as well.
My used oil analysis of the 5w40 (at 2500 miles, halfway to my OCI) showed very little shearing (from 13.3 to 12.4 CST, including a track day and 3 autocrosses on top of my daily lead-foot). To be fair it's the motorcycle variant but the specs are virtually identical.
Not exactly identical.
The auto version has a higher KV100 and KV40 spec's; 13.8cSt and 80.8cSt respectively. Plus it has a noticeably lower VI of 176 vs 187 for the 4T. Motul doesn't publish the HTHS spec's for it's 4T oils but it is undoubtedly lower than the 4.51cP for the auto oil.
Overall, I prefer the 4T 5W-40 oil to the auto version as well.
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